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The Macedonian Question.

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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 16:54
Hostile activities and propaganda, Akritas, not changing the name. Greece actions should be directed to the former. When Greece claims only their province should be named Macedonia because it has billions of years of history behind, they are doing propaganda, as well.
 
I don't understand how that picture proves your point. Is that mouse pad an evidence for an alleged Hungarian claim on the territory of its neighbours?


Edited by Chilbudios - 03-Apr-2008 at 16:55
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 17:22
Goce Delchev is respected in both Bulgaria and Macedonia and this respect has nothing to do with territorial claims of modern states.

Edited by Anton - 03-Apr-2008 at 17:23
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 17:25
I bet in 1903 there was plenty of maps describibg Greek megali idea.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 17:39
What's your point?


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 19:15
Originally posted by Chilbudios 

I don't understand how that picture proves your point. Is that mouse pad an evidence for an alleged Hungarian claim on the territory of its neighbours?
Chilbudios  I didnt see any Hungarian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Romanian or any other NATO Prime Minister to have in exposition  irredentist maps during national ceremonies......do you ?

But you didnt see this DETAIL(900 words)  in the picture, only the name of the Bulgarian Delcev(10 words)  you noticed!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chilbudios 

When Greece claims only their province should be named Macedonia because it has billions of years of history behind, they are doing propaganda, as well.
Never Greece said that.....Shocked
Only FYROM claim this arbitary opinion. Actually a Slavic  nation that claim historical roots with a Greek  tribe 1000 years  before theirs entrance in Macedonia, is nothing weird for you, is not propaganda and they are in the "right historical-political path".!!Ouch

 


Edited by akritas - 03-Apr-2008 at 19:16
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 19:16
Folks no need for me to butt in other than saying what I have on my mind. You have all debated the viability of Macedonia. You have also provided opinions, both pro and con, as to the legitamacy of a state called 'Macedonia'. I only would like to refresh the notion that this is a heated topic and that the manner in which you provided your opinions and references have been exemplary so far. Continue the respect you have for eachother by all of your good progress and... try to keep from making subtle remarks that might appear antagonistic toward one another. 

Edited by Seko - 03-Apr-2008 at 19:17
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 19:56
Originally posted by Vorian

What's your point?
 
My point is that the fact that former Mak PM visit of Goce Delchev's memorial says nothing about territorial fictional claims. This map is not part of the memorial and probably put by some macedonian nationalist just like Greek flag with svastika. Those kind of people however are made by members of all nationalities. I am sure your read all that kind of crap from your countrymates as well, did you?
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by akritas

Actually a Slavic  nation that claim historical roots with a Greek  tribe 1000 years  before theirs entrance in Macedonia, is nothing weird for you, is not propaganda and they are in the "right historical-political path".!!Ouch 
 
This sentence of yours is definitely propaganda.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 21:35
Originally posted by Anton

 
This sentence of yours is definitely propaganda.


Anton...You see Akritas like the Bull sees a red cloth.

Propaganda or not, the original tribe got its name from Macedon, a Deucalionides and religious Greek figure.

Now while you say your neighbours "respect" your common heroes have a look around and see that it is probably a one sided respect...

After yesterdays failure you're next. Everything (according to them) will be your fault and it has just begun.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=91876

It is going to get worse.


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 21:37
Originally posted by akritas

Chilbudios  I didnt see any Hungarian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Romanian or any other NATO Prime Minister to have in exposition  irredentist maps during national ceremonies......do you ?

I'm not sure really. As far as I have noticed maps with Greater Hungary and Greater Romania are public, especially in museums, expositions or events which are related to history and consequently with the symbols of the national state. Was ever a prime minister photographed near one of those maps, I don't know.

The map of Greater Romania is public in history museums, in the Museum of the Parliament, you'll find it in schools and public offices. It is not everywhere as it is somehow a deprecated symbol, but there are still people nostalgic on that era or even with irrendetist agendas (more or less hidden). In Romania there's even party which is called "Greater Romania Party", an extremist party, of course, but has seats in the parliament. I don't claim Romania can set an example with its politicians or with its mentalities, but nevertheless she's a NATO member and she doesn't seem to pose any real danger to its neighbours.
 
But you didnt see this DETAIL(900 words)  in the picture, only the name of the Bulgarian Delcev(10 words)  you noticed!!!!!!
You're free to re-read my reply. Or read the following paragraph ....
 
Never Greece said that.....
Really? Let's read from your document the paragraph entitled "Why does Greece oppose the name 'Republic of Macedonia'?". It says: "'Republic of Macedonia', or just 'Macedonia', fails to solve the problem, as it is not distinguish this new country from the Northern Greek region of Macedonia, or from the parts of the wider Macedonia, which are also in Bulgaria and Albania. Furthermore, it is associated with the argument for the unification of 'Greater Macedonia' - a policy conceived by Stalin and Tito and pursued by the leadership in FYROM to the present day. The name is therefore linked with an ongoing policy that foresees territorial claims to a part of Greek territory, that has had Greek identity for more than three millenia, and is associated with immense pain and suffering by the peoples in the region.". In a nutshell, according to this paper, FYROM mustn't be called Macedonia because a) Macedonia is a Greek-reserved name because a "Greek identity for more than three millenia" b) It will be confusing c) It will fuel territorial claims (which is at best a matter of speculation, especially with pictures like the one attached). Point a) is exactly what you replied to.
 
Only FYROM claim this arbitary opinion. Actually a Slavic  nation that claim historical roots with a Greek  tribe 1000 years  before theirs entrance in Macedonia, is nothing weird for you, is not propaganda and they are in the "right historical-political path".!!Ouch
I rather find weird this version of history and the illusion that it can justify the name of a modern country.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 21:46
I don't think you have a massive wave of Romanians, Hungarians and the rest doing the same thing Chibuldios. If you took a camera and went out to the streets, would the people in Romania hit the numbers of those in FYROM while interviewed about their "greater plans"?


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 21:58
I don't know about FYROM-ers but here most of the people are quite indolent about politics and "greater plans". Most are rather worried about their favourite soccer team or prices going up. Wink
 
But the question is: are really most of the FYROM-ers expansionists? Or is it a minority of extremists which makes a lot of noise (especially now with this debate over the name)?
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 03-Apr-2008 at 21:58
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 22:03
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I don't know about FYROM-ers but here most of the people are quite indolent about politics and "greater plans". Most are rather worried about their favourite soccer team or prices going up. Wink
 
But the question is: are really most of the FYROM-ers expansionists? Or is it a minority of extremists which makes a lot of noise (especially now with this debate over the name)?
 


I want to believe they are a minority. However, a minority can be 1% to 49% and I'm afraid the number is great. At least in the diaspora.

Also, as I showed early in this post we were making noise about those matters for over 80 years now. Here we are today...If we went back in time people would say the same things and they also probably did back then.


Edited by Flipper - 03-Apr-2008 at 22:06


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 22:06
@ Chilbudios the objection(danger) for Greece does not emanate from the the continuing Slavmacedonian Historical Negonatism/Revesionism , but from the combinations of forces that can result in the future. Importance does not only have the relative force of state, but the combinations of force where it can include itself and that can use in order to destabilize a neighbouring country or a entire region. FYROM does not have the right to acquire, by international recognition, an advantage enjoyed by no other state in the world: to use a name which of itself propagandizes territorial aspirations.We live in the BALKANS and not in Europe.
 
@Flip is not minority and this will be more clear after FYROM elections when nationalist Gruevski and VMRO would be rise his percentage.


Edited by akritas - 03-Apr-2008 at 22:10
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 22:29
 
Akritas, revisionism can be good when it's not some crap like Petro Invictus'. Especially when the Greek typical approach on history when it's about Macedonia is "Macedonia is Greek for 3-4000 years - usually these are the figures -  and the Slavs came here 1-1500 years ago". This is a very intransigent view of history and of modern politics, for it views Greeks and FYROM-ers as two compact ethnicities, not modern states.
 
By your claims, Republic of Moldova could make territorial claims on Romania (for it has a historical province called Moldova), yet it doesn't nor is anyone fearing such a thing (and no, the countries do not want or plan to unite anytime soon). What to say about Mexico and New Mexico (from US)? Or do you believe the Netherlands will lay a territorial claim on Holland, a small city from US? But what on two Congos, two Dominicas, two Guineas?
 
We live in the BALKANS and not in Europe.
Well, then stay in Balkans, if this is what you want! Smile
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Flipper


Anton...You see Akritas like the Bull sees a red cloth.
 
No, actually not in this case :) I just wanted to say what Chilbudios intelligently wrote one post above. BTW maps of San Stefano Bulgaria are also everywhare in Bulgaria. Yet, this does not mean Bulgaria have any territorial claims toward Greece.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 23:55
Originally posted by Flipper


It is going to get worse.
 
Actually the movie that you posted few weeks ago says that young generation is much more pragmatic. Well, apart from some brainwashed dudes.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 22:47

From the press:

The Nato summit in Bucharest is being overshadowed by what American officials have reportedly called "the world's stupidest major issue".
 
 
 
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 12:46

Albanian historian in the university of Tetovo,in FYROM,have called for the enciclopedia to be scraped,they say it contains flawd historical evidence,and history has been changed into propaganda.They will make a note of protest to the Macedonian parlament were they will call for it to be scraped.They refuse to teach Albanian students the propaganda of Fyrom.

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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 12:58
Greece and Albania a few years back have reached an agreement on History,very soon Greek and Albanian kids will learn in school the same version of History.Could not Macedonia do the same?
No they have to maintain their Slavic identity as well as claim historical heritage of an Ancient tribe,the teritory of which is devided in 3 modern states,Greece,Bulgaria and FYROM,
Greece is right in my opinion,in principle at least (i am not sure if is right in using a veto,but then again but can it do?)
The Greek foreign minister,Dora Bakojanis, was right,she did not talk about great history of Greece or about the Historical heritage of Macedonians belonging to Greek state,NO,she simply said that more then 50 %of what was Macedonia is in Greece,therefore Greece can not allow a modern state with the name of Macedonia,to claim historical heritage from the same ancient Macedonia,of which more then 50% belong to Greece.Thats the point.
 
As i have said before,the problem is not about Macedonia,it can call itself however it likes to,but when you claim heritage from an tribe that inhabited an area which most of it is under another indipendent state,then thats wrong.Greece can not convince them,or force them to belive or not to belive that they are decendants of ancient Macedonia,but it can not allow them to have this name in the light of the historical heritage.Thats the problem.
Macedonians,who have historicaly considered themselves Bulgars have now created their own National identity,but at the foundations of it they have put dangerous myths.
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