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Oldest civilization in the world?

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oldest civilization in the world?
    Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 17:53
Originally posted by Sharrukin

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/older.htm  Iran is really replacing Mesopotamia as the oldest civilization.

Anybody reviewing that site, one is left with the impression that Iran is the origin of humanity, the Aryans, and all facits of civilization, and these are actually the authors conclusions at the end of his pseudo-treatise, and therefore should be viewed with extreme skepticism.  He does present some facts but they are drowned into so much misconception and factual mistakes, that finding the truth is too laborious for the casual reader.   This author's agenda is loud and clear, and so I don't recommend this site for consideration.

Many of the new archeological digs show that Elam was an older civilization than Sumer. Articles and studies about this poping up all over the place, but most are not main stream yet

 

 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 01:28

But Archaeologists have found another city of Susa which is at least 3000 years older than the Elamite Susa -> 6,000-Year-Old Ziggurat Found

At the center of the city, a ziggurat was built of which two floors still exist. A wall surrounded it, which is the inner wall of three concentric walls in Dur Untash. Between the inner wall and the middle wall several temples belonging to different Elamite divinities were built. The outer city wall was about 4 km long enclosing an area of approximately 100 hectares. The royal quarter was situated adjacent to a major city gate some 450 meters east of the ziggurat. In this area, a group of three major buildings with large courts surrounded by lengthy halls and rooms were excavated. Beneath one of theses buildings (Palace I), five underground tombs were found similar to those of Haft Tappeh (Kabnak).

The article first announces this 6,000 year figure, but when it gets to specifics, the result is that Dur Untash was founded by Untash Napirisha (c. 1266-1245 BC).  Hardly 6,000 years ago; more like 3260 years.  Care must be taken also when evaluating an article to note how recent it is.  Initial estimates about the age of new discoveries tend to be adjusted downwards as the progress of research and digging continues.

Many of the new archeological digs show that Elam was an older civilization than Sumer. Articles and studies about this poping up all over the place, but most are not main stream yet

Thus far, such articles which make that claim that I've seen, on close examination simply don't make the case.  One article I've seen claims that proto-Elamite script is older then Sumerian pre-cuneiform.  The most current evidence, however, still shows that pre-cuneiform is older, and that proto-Elamite owes some of its forms and numeric system to proto-cuneiform.  As I've stated above, initial estimates on the age of new discoveries should be taken with caution until better studies establish their true dating.  Another thing that should be borne in mind, is to examine articles which make such claims.  I've seen too many articles which have flashy titles only to find nothing in them to substantiate such claims.  In the case of the article cited by Cyrus, the 6,000 year figure given does not conform to the article which specified that an Elamite king founded the site about  3260 years ago.

 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 07:43
Sharrukin, maybe it has not been translated well but it says this 6,000 years old new-discovered city was found by the forefathers of King Untash Napirisha who founded Dur-Untash, as you said, about 3260 years ago.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 00:21
Even so, the context shows that the forefathers were merely "housed" there, but that the grandeur and purpose of Dur Untash was to the credit of Untash Napirisha, himself.  "Its size and splendor was intended to honor the gods and to manifest the power of the monarch."  Immediately after this, the ziggurat is described.  I'm sorry but the context still shows that the ziggurat and city were merely about 3260 years old.
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  Quote ksy820326 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 02:44

****This advertising is in no way on topic and has been edited.  For permission to advertise a partner forum please contact the Administrators.***

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  Quote Kouros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 17:03
finally the truth is being told. i highly reccomend the site : http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/older.htm  because recent archealogy is what moves historical pace foward. how long has irans name been dragged in the dust and how long have they been forced to commemorate only 2500 years of their civilzation? why should the greek prefixes for iran be firm on them today as they were 2500 years ago. i am glad that this new information is being deduced. 
Iran:?!]Iran
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  Quote Vamun Tianshu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 17:10
How can we really know the oldest civilization,if all they mention is Asia and Eastern Europe?We canot really know for sure,becuase there were people living in America and Australia,and some experts speculate that life began in Africa.If it goes one-sided,we can never know for sure.

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 02:28
For fear that coolstorm is already too unpopular to be taken seriously here, let me affirm that there are some indications that suggest that Chinese history is much older than 2200 BC (similar things can be said of many other cultures.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Sumeria is much older than 3500 BC)

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  Quote Vamun Tianshu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 17:27
Didn't the start of agriculture in China start little after 5000 BC?And Indian Culture is more than 12,000 years old,there is enough evidence to support this.Civilizations aren't all about buildings and things,its also start of culture,agriculture and other such things like writing.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 05:41
The word civilisation comes from Civus which means city. Civilisation is indeed about buildings, or rather cities.
If you want to remove the city context, then you can make everyone a few thousand years older.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 04:30

Here, here Cywr.  Yes that's right.

The word "civilization" as been tossed about to justify anything, to the point that where humanity began was the beginning of civilization.  In archaeological circles there is a phenomenon called an "industry", a "culture", and a "civilization".  An industry describes the first rudimentary artefacts of human creation, usually stone tools.  This term covers human development in Paleolithic times.  When stone tools are found with other artefacts, such as pottery, remnants of settlements, etc. we use the term "culture" to describe those assemblages.  When we use the term "civilization" we use it as a developement of a "culture" where the village developes into a city.  In current terminology, the earliest city was Uruk.  Coincidently, writing developed at about the same time that Uruk reached the status of a city, c. 3500 BC.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 18:56

Ancient civilizations are something like this but the actual ranking is almost imposible to account for so here goes

 

Sumerian, Egyptian, Harappan, Chinese, Mayan

 

It is so sad and shows how narrow minded most people are when they ignore the Meso-American civilizations and Harappa.



Edited by Jina
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  Quote magavan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 20:07

There is a difference between indo-european languages and aryan religion. Aryan took birth in the vedas and avestan this is a notion of respect. Maybe an indoeupean language gradually came to India in a pacific way( the harrapa was dstruct by the time not by invaders), but the Indo-european didn't call themselfs aryan before the vedas.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 21:00

Harappa could not have degraded by time because it was a sudden downfall not a gradual downfall.



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  Quote magavan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 11:53

No There is no evience of an "aryan" invasion. The AIT is completly false, This is a racist concept.

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2005 at 13:25

The first was sumer 5000 B.C

and the first village in the world was in mesopotamia too (JARMO)

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 15:55
I don't know about the others but I am sure that thracain civilization is one of the oldest!
Everybody listen only this which understands.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 21:17

 Aren't all of you discussing which groups got around to the idea of bashing their neighbor's heads in first? You've moved from a first assumption, civilization must be equated with cities, and moved quickly into a second: material grandeur constitutes civilization. Both, as Sharrukin underscored leave much to be desired. Could not a society function within 'civilized' parameters and abjure urbanization? Is not this latter more a response to conflict than a desired 'advance' in organization?  How do 'societies' respond with respect to their environment and hence organize their material priorities? Early neolithic centers in Anatolia and elsewhere might not have had the needs imposed by arid riverine environs that led to complex construction. Were all of these endeavors truly isolated from one another or are there links?

The race is won not by the first from the block but by the one that lasted the course.  Who got of the block 'first' with urbanized head-bashing? so far it's those lower Mesopotamian rascals south of Ur with their ox 'chariots'--in all probability many of the original settlements have disappeared under the waters of the Persian Gulf. But then Narmer was probably not far behind and apparently recent research has given a heads up to the Egyptians with regard to not only 'writing' but actually having more than a 'city-state' political organization.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 00:20
Originally posted by tzar

I don't know about the others but I am sure that thracain civilization is one of the oldest!
  Well if you dont compare the Truths then how can you make that statement. To much pride and too little reality.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 00:23
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

The first was sumer 5000 B.C

and the first village in the world was in mesopotamia too (JARMO)

  Well your lack of studying anything but your oun peoples place on this earth would put you right with yourself only

 

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