Where is the ACLU

Maybe because parents of the other groups can keep their sanity in a secular world? I would hardly think muslims are a "privileged minority" in the US if that is what you are getting at. The last child to get their toy yanked is usually the one who whines the loudest, doesn't mean it will never be yanked. 

The ACLU is defending Christians from being discriminated in schools. That is where the ACLU is

Saying Islam does not give equality to women in inheritance laws is critcism acceptable by all muslims and there are many scholars who wrote books defending Islam and no one who said that fact was ever called and Islamophobe. Saying muslims are the new evil, talking aboub the "Islamic conspiracy" to islamize europe, calling the Quran  the Islamic equivalent of"mein kampf" and calling for the ban on Islamic practices,like Hijab, circumcission and ritual slaughter, just because mislims do them is Islamophobic. Anyway, if you were so concerned, send a letter to the ACLU and see what they will answer and I will be positive that they will move against the school if this was true. They did stand up against muslims before, the woman Imam affair, and will stand again.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Saying Islam does not give equality to women in inheritance laws is critcism acceptable by all muslims and there are many scholars who wrote books defending Islam and no one who said that fact was ever called and Islamophobe. Saying muslims are the new evil, talking aboub the "Islamic conspiracy" to islamize europe, calling the Quran  the Islamic equivalent of"mein kampf" and calling for the ban on Islamic practices,like Hijab, circumcission and ritual slaughter, just because mislims do them is Islamophobic. Anyway, if you were so concerned, send a letter to the ACLU and see what they will answer and I will be positive that they will move against the school if this was true. They did stand up against muslims before, the woman Imam affair, and will stand again.   Al-Jassas

Percicely. I mean its their right to hate and publish this garbage all they want. I have nothing against that. But to blatantly spread fear is wrong, too. Spencer recently released a book that basically calls the Prophet the original terrorist and circumstantially conects and "cuts and pastes" various verses to connect them in order to make it look like the Qu'ran sponsors terrorist thoughts. The same organizations that read and pitch this book also pitch these fears among the evangelicals and far right mainly.


Basically the hypotesis is that Muslims who follow the Qu'ran are terrorists and ones who do not fully follow it don't do these acts.. .

Originally posted by es_bih Originally posted by eaglecap Originally posted by hugoestr The ACLU is defending Christians from being discriminated in schools. That is where the ACLU is Hi Hugoester please show me some links on this hugoester. I am not doubting you because there have been a few isolated cases. I know the ACLUJ,a Christian law group, has been on the forefront of defending Christian rights along with some other Christian law groups. I do believe in seperation of church and state and it should apply to all groups if it applies for others. frontpagemag is a long string of looney anti-islamic ultra right wing organizations who lack any credibility. They post news articles that are related to Islam then look for anything that looks "negative," rephrase it and blow it out of proportion and whine about it. I am on the right myself (deist) and I would accept the fact I have not seen both sides of this issue or the whole picture in this case. I believe the people who represent Frontline are patriotic Americans and so far from all of the sources I read they do not take things out of context. if you criticize Islam at all you are suddenly Islamophobic and a Muslim hater, I do not think this is true. Even though I tend to agree with them I have gone out of my way to help immigrants, some Muslim, with English. I do not assume they are evil because they are Muslim but see them as humans in a new land. Right now I am reading "Defending the West" by Ibn Warraq I respect your opinion though as your right to express and do not seek to change it but I wanted to express my views. calling them looney is your right but it is only name calling and it is a tactic of the extreme left and yes sometimes right. If a group takes a difference stance they are looney. It is not name calling; they are connected with jihadwatch another group that is blatantly anti-Islamic as is Ibn Warraq, his book is an attack on an outdated book for the sake of gaining support among the fearful right. It's basically 500 pages of someone who is trying to fit in catering to vain beliefs of an old age that still persist in some circles in order to confirm their fears and to confirm their ideals that are attacked by scholarly circles who try to reintepret this world according to facts and neutrality. They are patriotic in their own mindframe that is you have to think like them and be like them and believe like them to be on the right patriotic path. I mean when most books published and pitched by that organization are about attacking the core of Islam and core beliefs and showing some rather circumstantial and blatantly false claims to denounce a religion on a purely unacademic basis; I dont know but I call that hatemongering and profiting on ignorant people's fears. The same people published anti-Black books several generations ago alongside a series of anti immigrant and anti Catholic etc works.

I respect your opinion and appreciate your input but do not agree although what you say is worth pondering. I support jihad watch and in no way has it caused me to hate Muslims, even the Jihadist but this should be for another thread. I do believe their thinking and mine is much more in line with founding fathers- Read: Jefferson's War.
The point of the post is that if they allow one group charter schools then all should be included. I remember when the schools allowed TM into their programs and one group sued under seperation of church and state because they were teaching Hiduism in a round about way via TM. They should not be given tax money to teach any Hindu beliefs that promote this religion or even Christianity. Same goes with the charter schools. I actually would support charter schools if all were allowed and that is really my main problem with this. If the article is wrong or an exaggeration than I am sorry. Ibn Warraq is a former Muslim, isn't he??

added: I read the so called hate speech hall of fame- sorry do not agree with this but it reminds me of the title of a book about extreme liberalism written by Mike Savage.
Have you even made the attempt to read his material such as "Defending the West?" Maybe you could write a criticism about it like he did for Edward Said in "Orientalism" which I have read along with Armstrong's book "Holy War."


I some questions though-??
Do you believe in seperation of church or Mosque and state??
Do you believe that sharia law should be brought into use in America in any way?
Or do you support the US Constitution and the Republic 100%? I really suspect the latter but just want to know. You can pm me your answer and leave it at that.




Edited by eaglecap - 15-Mar-2008 at 21:17

About every year we have been having this same conversation: eaglecap says some radical right-wing statement about the ACLU, and I bring up the link that shows how the ACLU defends Christians' religious rights.

Here is the 2008 version of this conversation Maybe you should stop believing Savage too much and do some quick fact checking :)

Unlike the fascistic right-wing radio hosts, the ACLU actually believes in civil liberties for everyone.

ACLU Religious Cases


Below are some cases that they have defended:

The ACLU of Florida (2007) argued in favor of the right of Christians to protest against a gay pride event held in the City of St. Petersburg. The City had proposed limiting opposition speech, including speech motivated by religious beliefs, to restricted "free speech zones." After receiving the ACLU's letter, the City revised its proposed ordinance. www.aclufl.org/pdfs/StPeteLetter.pdf www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=57665 The ACLU of West Virginia (2007) sued on behalf of a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) university student who won a prestigious scholarship to West Virginia University. Although the state scholarship board provided leaves of absence for military, medical, and family reasons, it denied the ACLU's client a leave of absence to serve on a 2-year mission for his church. The ACLU filed a religious freedom claim in federal court. www.aclu-wv.org/Newsroom/PressReleases/07_19_07.html The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (2007) represents Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, whose religious beliefs lead her to condemn homosexuality as a sin and insist that God is punishing the United States. The protests in which she has been involved have been confrontational and have involved funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. While the ACLU does not endorse her message, it does believe that she has both religious and free-speech rights to express her viewpoint criticizing homosexuality. www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/26265prs20060721.html The ACLU of Wisconsin (2007) filed a friend-of-the-court brief arguing that individual pharmacists should be able to refuse to fill prescriptions that violate their religious scruples, provided that patients can obtain prescriptions from willing providers in a safe and timely manner. www.aclu-wi.org/wisconsin/rights_of_women/ 20070201_Pharm_Refusal_amicus_complete.pdf The ACLU of New Jersey (2007) defended the right of an elementary school student who was prohibited from singing "Awesome God" in a voluntary, after-school talent show for which students selected their own material. The ACLU submitted a friend-of-the-Court brief. After a favorable settlement was reached for the student, the federal lawsuit was dismissed. www.aclu.org/religion/schools/25799prs20060605.html The ACLU and the ACLU of Pennsylvania (2007) prevailed in their case on behalf of an Egyptian Coptic Christian who had been detained and who claimed he had been tortured by the Egyptian government because he refused to convert to Islam. After permitting Sameh Khouzam to stay in the United States for nine years based on evidence that he would probably be tortured if he returned to Egypt, the U.S. government changed its position in 2007 and sought to deport Mr. Khouzam based on diplomatic assurances from the Egyptian government that Mr. Khouzam would not be tortured upon return. As a result of the ACLU's advocacy, a federal court granted Mr. Khouzam an indefinite stay of deportation to Egypt. www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/egyptiantorture.htm The ACLU of North Carolina (2007) challenged a North Carolina Department of Corrections policy making all religious services in prison English-only, thereby denying access to many inmates. The North Carolina Division of Prisons agreed to review the policy and the need for religious services in languages other than English in the state correctional system. The ACLU of Delaware (2007) prevailed in a lawsuit brought on behalf of Christians, pagans, and Wiccans, alleging that a department store violated a Delaware public accommodations law by canceling community courses after individuals complained about the religious beliefs that were being taught in the centers. (This case is also listed in Part II.) The ACLU of North Carolina (2007) assisted with the naturalization of a Jehovah's Witness who had been told he could not obtain United States citizenship because of his conscientious refusal to swear an oath that he would be willing to bear arms on behalf of the country. The ACLU of Rhode Island (2007) prevailed in its arguments on behalf of a Christian inmate, Wesley Spratt, who had been preaching in prison for over seven years before administrators told him to stop based on vague and unsubstantiated security concerns. After the ACLU prevailed in the First Circuit, the parties reached a settlement under which Mr. Spratt is free to preach again. www.projo.com/news/content/ Preacher_07-31-07_T76IHBQ.34294dd.html The ACLU of the National Capital Area (2007) brought suit on behalf of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish firefighters and paramedics who wear beards as a matter of religious observance. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia agreed with the ACLU that the District of Columbia's policy prohibiting these individuals from wearing beards violated their religious freedom rights. www.aclu-nca.org/boxSub.asp?id=84 (This case is also listed in Part II.) The ACLU of Texas (2006) filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of a Christian pastor and his faith-based rehabilitation facility in Sinton, Texas. The ACLU of Texas urged the court to reverse a decision that prohibited the pastor from operating his rehabilitation program near his church and also sharply limited the reach of the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=391 The ACLU of Louisiana (2006) filed a lawsuit defending the right of a Christian who wished to exercise both religious and speech rights by protesting against homosexuality in front of a Wal-Mart store with a sign that read: "Christians: Wal-Mart Supports Gay Marriage and Gay Lifestyles. Don't Shop There." www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/27266prs20061027.html The ACLU of Georgia (2006) filed a federal lawsuit to help obtain a zoning permit for a house of worship on behalf of the Tabernacle Community Baptist Church after the city of East Point denied the request. www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/25518prs20060419.html The ACLU of Nevada (2006) defended the free exercise and free speech rights of evangelical Christians to preach on the sidewalks of Las Vegas. When the County government refused to change its unconstitutional policy, the ACLU filed suit in federal court. www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3379553&nav=15MVaB2T

Notice how most of the defendant are Christians. There are a lot more cases like these if you follow the link.

Edited by hugoestr - 17-Mar-2008 at 17:32

Originally posted by hugoestr About every year we have been having this same conversation: eaglecap says some radical right-wing statement about the ACLU, and I bring up the link that shows how the ACLU defends Christians' religious rights. Here is the 2008 version of this conversation Maybe you should stop believing Savage too much and do some quick fact checking :) Unlike the fascistic right-wing radio hosts, the ACLU actually believes in civil liberties for everyone. ACLU Religious Cases Below are some cases that they have defended: The ACLU of Florida (2007) argued in favor of the right of Christians to protest against a gay pride event held in the City of St. Petersburg. The City had proposed limiting opposition speech, including speech motivated by religious beliefs, to restricted "free speech zones." After receiving the ACLU's letter, the City revised its proposed ordinance. www.aclufl.org/pdfs/StPeteLetter.pdf www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=57665 The ACLU of West Virginia (2007) sued on behalf of a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) university student who won a prestigious scholarship to West Virginia University. Although the state scholarship board provided leaves of absence for military, medical, and family reasons, it denied the ACLU's client a leave of absence to serve on a 2-year mission for his church. The ACLU filed a religious freedom claim in federal court. www.aclu-wv.org/Newsroom/PressReleases/07_19_07.html The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (2007) represents Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, whose religious beliefs lead her to condemn homosexuality as a sin and insist that God is punishing the United States. The protests in which she has been involved have been confrontational and have involved funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. While the ACLU does not endorse her message, it does believe that she has both religious and free-speech rights to express her viewpoint criticizing homosexuality. www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/26265prs20060721.html The ACLU of Wisconsin (2007) filed a friend-of-the-court brief arguing that individual pharmacists should be able to refuse to fill prescriptions that violate their religious scruples, provided that patients can obtain prescriptions from willing providers in a safe and timely manner. www.aclu-wi.org/wisconsin/rights_of_women/ 20070201_Pharm_Refusal_amicus_complete.pdf The ACLU of New Jersey (2007) defended the right of an elementary school student who was prohibited from singing "Awesome God" in a voluntary, after-school talent show for which students selected their own material. The ACLU submitted a friend-of-the-Court brief. After a favorable settlement was reached for the student, the federal lawsuit was dismissed. www.aclu.org/religion/schools/25799prs20060605.html The ACLU and the ACLU of Pennsylvania (2007) prevailed in their case on behalf of an Egyptian Coptic Christian who had been detained and who claimed he had been tortured by the Egyptian government because he refused to convert to Islam. After permitting Sameh Khouzam to stay in the United States for nine years based on evidence that he would probably be tortured if he returned to Egypt, the U.S. government changed its position in 2007 and sought to deport Mr. Khouzam based on diplomatic assurances from the Egyptian government that Mr. Khouzam would not be tortured upon return. As a result of the ACLU's advocacy, a federal court granted Mr. Khouzam an indefinite stay of deportation to Egypt. www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/egyptiantorture.htm The ACLU of North Carolina (2007) challenged a North Carolina Department of Corrections policy making all religious services in prison English-only, thereby denying access to many inmates. The North Carolina Division of Prisons agreed to review the policy and the need for religious services in languages other than English in the state correctional system. The ACLU of Delaware (2007) prevailed in a lawsuit brought on behalf of Christians, pagans, and Wiccans, alleging that a department store violated a Delaware public accommodations law by canceling community courses after individuals complained about the religious beliefs that were being taught in the centers. (This case is also listed in Part II.) The ACLU of North Carolina (2007) assisted with the naturalization of a Jehovah's Witness who had been told he could not obtain United States citizenship because of his conscientious refusal to swear an oath that he would be willing to bear arms on behalf of the country. The ACLU of Rhode Island (2007) prevailed in its arguments on behalf of a Christian inmate, Wesley Spratt, who had been preaching in prison for over seven years before administrators told him to stop based on vague and unsubstantiated security concerns. After the ACLU prevailed in the First Circuit, the parties reached a settlement under which Mr. Spratt is free to preach again. www.projo.com/news/content/ Preacher_07-31-07_T76IHBQ.34294dd.html The ACLU of the National Capital Area (2007) brought suit on behalf of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish firefighters and paramedics who wear beards as a matter of religious observance. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia agreed with the ACLU that the District of Columbia's policy prohibiting these individuals from wearing beards violated their religious freedom rights. www.aclu-nca.org/boxSub.asp?id=84 (This case is also listed in Part II.) The ACLU of Texas (2006) filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of a Christian pastor and his faith-based rehabilitation facility in Sinton, Texas. The ACLU of Texas urged the court to reverse a decision that prohibited the pastor from operating his rehabilitation program near his church and also sharply limited the reach of the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=391 The ACLU of Louisiana (2006) filed a lawsuit defending the right of a Christian who wished to exercise both religious and speech rights by protesting against homosexuality in front of a Wal-Mart store with a sign that read: "Christians: Wal-Mart Supports Gay Marriage and Gay Lifestyles. Don't Shop There." www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/27266prs20061027.html The ACLU of Georgia (2006) filed a federal lawsuit to help obtain a zoning permit for a house of worship on behalf of the Tabernacle Community Baptist Church after the city of East Point denied the request. www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/25518prs20060419.html The ACLU of Nevada (2006) defended the free exercise and free speech rights of evangelical Christians to preach on the sidewalks of Las Vegas. When the County government refused to change its unconstitutional policy, the ACLU filed suit in federal court. www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3379553&nav=15MVaB2T Notice how most of the defendant are Christians. There are a lot more cases like these if you follow the link.

Thanks Hugoestr I will print this out and read it over. I am not a Christians but when I get a chance I will find some links where they have attacked Christians and put it on a different post. My main concern here is that if they allow this with one religion then all should be included or not at all. I am sure someone will take this to court!!

Originally posted by eaglecap Originally posted by es_bih http://muslimmethod.wordpress.com/2007/07/19/a-response-to-robert-spencer-and-others/An interesting webpage/ blog concerning such forms of literature.Also from same site, a response that might be insightful eaglecap: Rev. Jim Sutter        on         August 5, 2007                           <div ="commenttext">         <div ="commentp">                      I spent about 4 months corresponding with Spencer, showing him close to 4,000 Muslim scholars, political and religious leaders, teachers, imams, mullahs, muftis, authors, journalists, and all level of learned Muslims who clearly condemned terrorism, including extensive details of why AQ is wrong, how UBL is perverting the Qur�an and hadiths as an excuse for his own agenda, hundreds of fatwas against violence, suicide, and terrorism. Spencer rejected every single one of them, claiming they were either taqiya, or that they weren�t detailed enough. He has his mind set to refuse facts. There is a very detailed report on Mr. Spencer and why he hates Islam (he�s getting rich from it) and why Spencer frequently writes that Usama is using the correct interpretation of the Qur�an, you can find the main article at http://hatewatchhallofshame.blogspot.com/2007/06/spencers-spin.html .   There are actually 13 articles about Spencer on the site, you can find them all by using http://hatewatchhallofshame.blogspot.com/search/label/Spencer Spencer wants war between Islam and the West, because it makes him rich. He does not want peace, and he is part of a group that will do anything to keep peace from happening. BTW, you can find a multitude of Muslim scholars and authorities who condemn terrorism at http://facts-not-fear.blogspot.com         This is good and the earlier posts about your correspondence with Robert Spencer I will like to see some of these links you sent him, I do have an open mind. I realize that the majority of Muslims only want what most people want; family, a life and security. I never have thought that all Muslms are evil but there are some who have an agenda. I have maintained a lasting friendship with many of my former students in Istanbul, some are Muslims. I do not think Spencer wants war but an end to the extremism that is all too common to current our events today. I also see the news about radical Hindus or the Tamil Tigers. The IRA was also terrible and really it seems like some humans tend toward violence. Some of the fears they bring up are all too real and something we must consider in our immigration policy. I am not against immigration from Muslim countries but no matter where they come from they should be screened. A number or Russian who were allowed to immigrate here were outright criminals and there is the danger of terrorism. I have even sent job contacts for some of my former Turkish students who want to come here. We can only agree to disagree here but please send me those links. I do believe Robert Spencer is half Greek like myself but I am not sure. I know his family was forced about of Turkey like mine was or my Greek half.

The website I cited contains that initial post, and the correspondences I am not sure since that is another individual that posted that not myself. Spencer's problem is that he continously and vainly tries to implicate Islam as an evil religion and Muhammad as an evil trickster; that is why he is not against extremism but rather an Islamophobe. I would rather look into conditions and the "Jihadist" leaders rhetoric for these violent notions that they practice.