Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Japanese Empire

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Japanese Empire
    Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 09:48
Yeah, the Korean and Finnish/Estonian, likely also Hungarian, have an extremely similar build-up and the grammar rules, as far as I know. 
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 16:51
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
How about similar grammar and vocabularly? Aren't these evidence?
 
 
In fact,the last believers of the Altaic theory : Starostin and co.
 
A very critical review of the Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages by Starostin & co should appear in the next issue of Diachronica (international journal of historical linguistics).
 
 

The only thing obvious between Korean and Japanese is that they have a similar grammar typology, which isn't a proof of common origin.Of course,there is evidence of an influence between the two languages, but you cannot easily conclude that Japanese has its roots in Korean.

Some scholars' opinion is nothing is settled, which means nothing is proved.I don't say that the so-called "Altaic languages" could not be ultimately related, but the current theory doesn't prove that they are.

 
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 17:09
Well. The Altaic theory is just quite logical and it doesn't say that Japanese originate from Korean it just says that those languages originate from the common source.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 17:49
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
Well. The Altaic theory is just quite logical and it doesn't say that Japanese originate from Korean it just says that those languages originate from the common source.
 
 
Frankly,it's a ' flimsy ' theory though LOL.Regarding the Japanese & Korean  relatedness is a bias has aspects that reflect cultural/social/historical currents of the moment ( This debate wouldn’t be worth mentioning if it's true or Koreans and non-NE Asian surrogates wouldn't harp on it in cyberspace ).It's a fad of late will fade in due time. 
 
About Koguryo language,there are only 60 Koguryo vocabularies identified today and they are close to modern Japanese words but has nothing to do with modern Korean vocabularies.

Greenberg and Ruhlen's Eurasiatic and methodology of mass comparison,read:


Stefan Georg & Alexander Vovin "From mass comparison to mess comparison: Greenberg’s Indo-European and its Closest Relatives" Diachronica 20:2. 2003. (pp. 331–362)
 
 
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 18:18
I don't understand why you link Altaic theory to the Korean-Japanese relations. It's a logical theory that makes valid assumptions and it's totally unrelated to whatever Japanese-Korean bias etc.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:22
All this Koguryo-Japonic language relation is very limited. There are only a few remains of Koguryo written scripts.

Koguryo language is widely believed to be the most related to Tungusic out of the languages of the 3 Korean kingdoms. If Japanese was more related to Koguryo in terms of linguistics, then why is Japanese language less related to Tungusic then Korean? It's very illogical.
Back to Top
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Jun-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 17:50

Originally posted by pebbles

Present day China geography includes both ' Outer Mongolia ' & ' Manchuria ',so we can also say they ( Wa-jins or Yamato people,neither Sinic nor Koreanic ) migrated from CHINA.

I see. So I guess if we want to find out what ancient Carthaginians were like, all we have to do is take a trip to Lebanon?

Originally posted by pebbles

There are books published on non-Yamato indigenous Hayato & Kumaso were actually related to Chinese ' Wu-Yue ' peoples of China's coastal Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces.FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=LOL"

Again, you're making arguments based on genetic ancestry that are at best tangential to the issue, which is the political and cultural influence that created the Japanese empire. I have no doubt that Japanese genetics mostly reflect the population of the islands by pre-Yamato peoples, who doubtless provided the vast majority of the genetic material that has gone in to succeeding generations of Japanese. But the fact that these peoples lived on the Japanese archipelago for thousands of years without ever uniying politically, and that the process of unification was associated with a very specific cultural and technological package that did not come from them, suggests that they were not the ones who drove that process.

Originally posted by pebbles

There certainly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages.It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true.

That's simply not true. While the Altaic theory certainly isn't beyond reproach, and definitely doesn't explain all of Japan and Korea's history, it remains a serious theory and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Originally posted by pebbles

Frankly,it's a ' flimsy ' theory though FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=LOL".

At least it's a theory. What you've introduced so far has been a disorganized mish-mash of genetic studies showing modern Japanese are largely descended from the ancient peoples of Japan, of records showing that families with Chinese names have settled in Japan in recent centuries, and of other arguments that have no discernible connection other than that they point out some link that Japanese people have to any place that isn't Korea.

So, precisely what theory do you espouse for the formation and expansion of the Japanese imperial state?

Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 15:42
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

 
 
 
But the fact that these peoples lived on the Japanese archipelago for thousands of years without ever uniying politically, and that the process of unification was associated with a very specific cultural and technological package that did not come from them,suggests that they were not the ones who drove that process.

 

 
 
* Gina Barnes of the University of Durham in Great Britain admits the possibility while citing the lack of evidence:

“There is no direct historical evidence of a (Japanese) emperor born on the Korean Peninsula. There is considerable evidence of contact with peninsular kings and elites. But given other monarchical systems in which ‘stranger kings’ may be incorporated, such as the British Hanover line, which has produced the current queen, it’s not an impossible thought that the Yamato rulership incorporated foreign allies.”


* Walter Edwards of Tenri University in Nara Prefecture downplays the Korean connection:

“Would we expect to find that the occupants of the earliest large tombs, the third-century figures who originally carved out the Yamato polity, to have been Korean aristocrats who came over and wrested power from indigenous leaders, helping raise a backward nation up to the level of early statehood? That is what is all too often implied by whisperings of ‘Korean bones’. That view I reject. The emergence of the ancient Yamato polity was an indigenous phenomenon.”
 
 
 
Pai, Hyung Il. "Culture Contact and Culture Change: The Korean Peninsula and its Relations with the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang." World Archaeology 23:3 (February 1992): 306-319.

One of the most controversial topics in Korean archaeology and history concerns the Han Lelang commanderies that were established in the Korean peninsula during the Han dynasty in 108 BC and lasted for 400 years.

In the traditional view, the importance of the Lelang in Korean history was seen in its role as the common enemy, at the time when Korea first experienced colonial rule.Such sentiment is so strong that there are actually some Korean ultranationalists who even deny the very existence of the Lelang commandery.

This view has been further complicated by the fact that some of the earliest archaeological work on Lelang was initiated by the Japanese around the time of the First World War. Back then, the ulterior motives of territorial claims by the Japanese Government General's Office of Korea over the Korean peninsula and Manchuria made some Japanese Lelang scholars claim that Han Lelang culture in Korea was a purely Han Chinese phenomenon, with no native Korean variants and forms.

 
But what really were the relations between the Korean Peninsula and the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang ? Hyung Il Pai (1992) presented a more balanced theoretical view that may help reconcile the nationalistic view of contemporary Korean scholars with pre-war Japanese colonial interpretations of Han Lelang's position in Korean prehistory. Basically,she argued that social and regional differentiation in the Korean peninsula were not possible without initial Han contact. Before the Lelang period, regional differences find expression ony in terms of minor variation in pottery styles. In contrast, third-century texts of the Weizhi (300 years after initial Han contact) reveal the existence of various guo 国 (or tribal kingdoms) such as Puyo, Koguryo, Okcho, Eastern Ye and Samhan. They are recorded as having distinctively different social organizations, subsistence systems, customs, and rituals.

The most important "traits of civilization" such as iron technology, writing, gold craftsmanship, and intesive rice agriculture, were derived from Han Lelang culture. Such widespread distribution of ideas and technology would not have been possible without the elite distribution network of seals, bronze mirrors, and luxury Han goods which stimlulated the initial exchange network.

 
According to Pai (1992), once this network was established in the core areas of Lelang, it quickly spread to all other parts of Korea and into southern-western Japan, forming the "Lelang Interaction Sphere" in Korean prehistory (that included Koguryo, Wa of Japan, and Samhan - Chinhan, Pyonhan, and Mahan)".Without this initial phase, the second stage of the interaction sphere that comprised Koguryo, Paekche, Silla, and Kofun Japan, would not have been possible. Extensive trade and diplomatic activities were heightened and reinforced by competition and warfare with Yamato Japan and the three kingdoms. These states shared common features in palatial architecture, in the spread of Buddhism and associated sculpture, as well as in gold artwork and jewellery.


References:
Pai, Hyung Il. "Lelang and the 'Interaction Sphere': An Alternative Approach to Korean State Formation." Archaeological Review from Cambridge 8:1 (1989): 64-75

http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/content/people_pai.html
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
hoihoi31 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 29-Jan-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote hoihoi31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 09:33
Japanese Empire?
that was only for 100 years until 1945.
 
however, A Yamato(japanese)dynasty is still kept for more than at least 1500 years
it means Emperor's succession in male lineage is kept.
 
I think Japan should register it in World Heritage.


Edited by hoihoi31 - 29-Jan-2009 at 09:38
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.