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King Kang of Mu
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Topic: Japanese Empire Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 17:07 |
Originally posted by pebbles
This is one of the things that comes up time to time. Now, here we go again.
Here is news [ in Korean] saying some Korean professor called 홍윤기 claims Amaterasu was a Korean (Silla) and Sugawara no Michizane was a Korean (Silla) too.
Many Japanese already pointed a whole bunch of mistakes in his claim. And their conclusion was the professor couldn’t even read the documents in old Chinese characters because there are so many pain simple mistakes.
Besides, even I know Amaterasu is a mythical god. Not even a human. Don’t confuse history and myth OK ? The Korean myth ' Dangun ' is considered to be historical fact in Korea and this myth is the basis of the 5000 Years of Korean History.Japanese don’t confuse history with myth ( except some were exaggerated and distorted during the war ).Japanese don’t confuse politics with history.
The Korean professor turned out to be a professor at “University of Foreign Language/Studies ” He is not even a historian.
This kind of things make many Japanese making fun of Koreans.* Below is the list [ in Japanese ] of Japanese said to be Korean-Japanese by Koreans but they are not.If ' he is great, he must be Korean ' type thinking is so common in Korean society that there is an article about this in the Wikipedia [in Japanese].Some Japanese created, just for fun, the ' 在日認定 ' certificate of being recognized as a Korean (descendant) by Koreans.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%A8%E6%97%A5%E8%AA%8D%E5%AE%9A
五木ひろし Hiroshi Itsuki (本名:松山 数夫 韓国でのイベントに参加したりした為、捏造認定される。両親とも日本人
美空ひばり Hibari Misora (両親とも日本人。死去時に週刊文春が徹底取材)
矢沢永吉 Eikichi Yazawa (過去スレのインタビューに海外に出て日の丸を見ると安心すると発言。パスポートも日本 )
北野武 Takeshi Kitano (武が勘違いしてクォーター発言。後に母自ら否定し、本人も間違いだったと雑誌で発言)
星野仙一 Senichi Hoshino (韓国で捏造認定するも、父親は戦前の三菱重工の工場長で、著名な航空技術者だった星野仙蔵)
石川梨華 Rika Ishikawa (Mステでパスポート公開。日本人だった)
草なぎ剛 Tsuyoshi Kusanagi (薙じゃない字は帰化人では使えない字だから日本人)
倉木麻衣 Mai Kuraki (父方の祖父が、昭和中期の詩人である山前實治)
ユーミン Yumi Matsutoya (実家が八王子の老舗「荒井呉服店」)
中島みゆき Miyuki Nakajima (明治時代からの医者一家に生まれる。ありえない)
高倉健 Ken Takakura (本名:小田 剛一 先祖が江戸後半の筑前商家の内儀である小田宅子。「東路日記」の著者)
中田英寿 Hidetoshi Nakata (在日の願望が広まり、朝鮮日報が在日韓国人3世と報道。しかし中田本人と事務所が完全否定した為、朝鮮日 報が誤りだったと訂正)
稲本潤一 Junichi Inamoto (WCの活躍により捏造認定されるが、両親ともに国体に出場。鹿児島出身)
松井稼頭央 Kazuo "Kaz" Matsui (在日による願望認定で噂が広まるが、2004年アテネ五輪日本代表メンバーに選出される)
石田ゆり子 Yuriko Ishida (小学生時代水泳でジュニアオリンピック出場。父親の仕事の関係で台湾に在住していた。朝鮮とは何の関 係も無い)
貴ノ花 Takanohana Kenshi (中学時代、全国選抜水泳大会で記録を更新しオリンピックの候補に選ばれる)
布施明 Akira Fuse (オリビアハッセーと結婚した事で在日が願望認定するが、実兄が国際海洋法の権威で政府関係の役職にも多 く就いている布施勉・横浜市大教授)
木村拓哉 Takuya Kimura (在日による願望認定。弟はアメリカンフットボールの日本代表でW杯に出場)
椎名桔平 Kippei Shiina (顔が中国系などの理由で在日が願望認定。しかし本人は高校時代サッカーで国体出場)
長嶋茂雄 Shigeo Nagashima (朝鮮日報が疑惑を指摘するが、父が千葉県臼井町(現佐倉市)の収入役だったのでありえない)
斉藤和巳 Kazumi Saito (朝鮮日報が記事で断定。しかし父が国体出場)
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So am I allowed to list things that make the Koreans make fun of the Japanses in this thread? Or should I just take over some other thread for it? Can some mod answer me? Because I am soooo ready, baby!
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Reginmund
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Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 17:49 |
Originally posted by pebbles
Both Japanese & Koreans have ' multiple origins ',they're only genetically related by 24% on shared ' proto-Siberian ' Tungusic genes.
Korean population has 30% Chinese ( non-Nomadic ) origin.
By the way,there is no such Altaic ethnicity or nationality,it's popular word amongst Koreans & Sinophobic foreign Asianphiles because Altaic superficially links non-Chinese NE Asians as one race. |
I never meant to say the Koreans or the Japanese are 100% Altaic, indeed, few peoples on this planet spring from a single source. Even so, the shared Altaic ancestry makes them relatives. As for the term Altaic itself, it's not just a "popular word" used by ignorants, as you seem to imply. Many if not the majority of professional linguists hold the theory of an Altaic linguistic family to be true, a family that includes Japanese and Korean. The Altaic theory has its opponents too, of course, and they prefer to think of the Altaic theory as just one among several possible hypothesizes. There is no established consensus and the debate goes on to this day, neither side can be dismissed with accusations of ethnic bias. The reason I chose to base my statements on the Altaic theory is that it's at the moment the most well-established one among the scholars, outweighing the alternatives. Also, you should translate all non-English text into English, or you are violating the forum codes.
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Seko
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Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 17:58 |
KKoM you can go for the gusto, no holds barred within the confines of the CoC. Something Pebbles should get accustomed to as Regimund has pointed out.
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King Kang of Mu
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Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 21:50 |
Originally posted by Seko
KKoM you can go for the gusto, no holds barred within the confines of the CoC. Something Pebbles should get accustomed to as Regimund has pointed out. |
I wasn't really ready you know. I was just bluffing and you called it Seko. Plus what fun would that be if I have to stay within thw CoC? I will just save it until the day I'm ready to get banned from here. Right now I like you guys just little too much.
Now I think about it this was why I joined AE first place, to lash out on some Japanese nationalists. But apparently, AE has changed me to become a better man. Now how am I supposed tell this my grand mother?
Edited by King Kang of Mu - 14-Oct-2008 at 00:34
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http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html
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red clay
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Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 21:54 |
I beliveve there is an older thread where we pretty much ran this subject into the ground.
And pebbles, The Altaic group is a very accepted concept.
I should also point out that the topic is The Japanese Empire. So lets get back on it hmmm.
and if not open another thread, or find that older one I mentioned.
Edited by red clay - 13-Oct-2008 at 22:01
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 16-Oct-2008 at 12:49 |
Originally posted by pebbles
Both Japanese & Koreans have ' multiple origins ',they're only genetically related by 24% on shared ' proto-Siberian ' Tungusic genes.
Korean population has 30% Chinese ( non-Nomadic ) origin.
By the way,there is no such Altaic ethnicity or nationality,it's popular word amongst Koreans & Sinophobic foreign Asianphiles because Altaic superficially links non-Chinese NE Asians as one race.
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yeah but this genetic thing cuts both way. Chinese gene? i would make an educated guess and say Han Chinese also have multiple origins (we all do) and would also have a high regional variations. mongolian/siberian > Korean > Japanese is the general flow at leats linguistically. The earleir inhabits of japan were not 'chinese' but Ainu.
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pebbles
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Posted: 16-Oct-2008 at 19:54 |
Mikado 御門 was a posthumous title for Japanese Emperor given by the Chinese Imperial Court.
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Bernard Woolley
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Posted: 17-Oct-2008 at 02:05 |
Originally posted by pebbles
Ahem .... some Koreans came from China's Shandong peninsula and Hebei province so apercentage of them were actually ' Chinese ' origin. |
Leaving aside that this says little about the group of people who crossed over to Japan (since it's unlikely that they were a representative cross-section of Korean society), a percentage of Koreans having Chinese ancestry does nothing to make them less Korean.
Originally posted by pebbles
Both Japanese & Koreans have ' multiple origins ',they're only genetically related by 24% on shared ' proto-Siberian ' Tungusic genes.
Korean population has 30% Chinese ( non-Nomadic ) origin.
By the way,there is no such Altaic ethnicity or nationality,it's popular word amongst Koreans & Sinophobic foreign Asianphiles because Altaic superficially links non-Chinese NE Asians as one race. |
The problem with this argument is that culture is not transmitted genetically. It doesn't really matter what percentage of Japanese genetic ancestry comes from this or that source, because it's irrelevant to how their culture and history developed. The group of people who established the state and culture that would eventually dominate all of Japan spoke an Altaic language and brought central Asian traditions and practices with them. They may well have been far removed from any central Asian roots. They probably added additional influences on top of those roots, both along the way and after they got to Japan. But from what we know about them, it's hard to argue that theirs wasn't basically a central Asian tribal culture.
Originally posted by pebbles
The Korean myth ' Dangun ' is considered to be historical fact in Korea and this myth is the basis of the 5000 Years of Korean History.Japanese don’t confuse history with myth ( except some were exaggerated and distorted during the war ). |
I'm sure there are some Koreans who avow mythical history to be real history. There are also some Japanese (and Americans, and French, and Yemenis, and Nepalese, etc...) who do the same. Since none of them appear to be here, why bring it up?
Originally posted by pebbles
Japanese don’t confuse politics with history. |
Japan is certainly not immune from biased historiography. I seem to remember a rather ugly row over nationalistic content in school textbooks a few years back.
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pebbles
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Posted: 17-Oct-2008 at 06:44 |
Japan's Yamato Dynasty don't have a family name, because Japanese believe their emperor is the living god and descedant of Amaterasu Omikami. The god wouldn't have a human surname.
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pebbles
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Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 05:51 |
Actually,in term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different. Majority modern day Koreans have broader face and big head,whereas the Japanese have mostly sharp narrower face and small head. Also,most Koreans are stocky build oppose to the Japanese are mostly smaller build. These basic physical characteristics are sufficient to ' debunk ' any argement that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than other NE Asian group as a few die-hard internet enthusiasts keep insisting unless they believe it's result of ' abnormality genes ' in their DNA.
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pebbles
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Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 06:30 |
It is not only Japanese people who recognize that the Ryukyuan languages belong in the same family as the Japanese language/dialects. I'm an American student of linguistics, and I can guarantee you that the Ryukyuan and Japanese languages share a very large percentage of cognate vocabulary. This is a very soundly established fact; it should not be considered alongside the likes of ridiculous attempts to relate the Japanese language to .. Hawaiian .. Korean .. Basque .. or whatever. For example, here is a list of the first four words in the "Adjectives" section of the online Nakijin Dialect Dictionary (includes voice samples): /?a'iguruuseN/ ("rare, seldom occurring") = Japanese */ar-i-gurusi-i/ ("painfully difficult to be") (This word does not actually exist in Japanese, but it hypothetically could, and it would be cognate with the Nakijin form.) /?a[?k]aaseN/ ("red") = Japanese /aka-i/ ("red") /?aQseN/ ("shallow") = Japanese /asa-i/ ("shallow") /?aQcibeeseN/ ("walks with a fast pace, to be a fast walker") = Japanese */aruk-i-baya-i/ (hypothetically could exist in Japanese with the same meaning, but Japanese people do not actually use this expression) To anyone who knows Japanese, these words look and sound like some sort of weird Japanese dialect, and not a truly foreign language. More importantly, regular "laws" of sound change can be formulated to explain the development of the observed Ryukyuan forms and the observed Japanese forms from their common ancestral language, Proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan (or Proto-Japonic, whatever you may call it). And so, I repeat, Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are indisputably related.
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pebbles
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Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 03:20 |
Originally posted by red clay
And pebbles, The Altaic group is a very accepted concept.
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Not all accepted concepts are accurate.
Case in point,' SE Asia ' has been falsely representative geographical region for Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia and South Pacific island nations.
Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia are no where near eastern part of Asia continent.
SW Asia = Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia
South Asia = India Pakistan Ceylon
Asia Pacific = Malaysia Indonesia,Singapore,Philippines,etc
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Bernard Woolley
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Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 04:49 |
Originally posted by pebbles
Actually,in term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different. Majority modern day Koreans have broader face and big head,whereas the Japanese have mostly sharp narrower face and small head.
Also,most Koreans are stocky build oppose to the Japanese are mostly smaller build.
These basic physical characteristics are sufficient to ' debunk ' any argement that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than other NE Asian group as a few die-hard internet enthusiasts keep insisting unless they believe it's result of ' abnormality genes ' in their DNA.FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=LOL" |
First of all, I think your phrenological theories are inaccurate, and little more than outdated stereotypes. Myself, I have yet to notice any significant difference between the head size and "stockiness" of Japanese and Koreans.
Secondly (and more importantly), if the group or groups of people who immigrated to Japan and came to dominate it were relatively small, which they almost definitely were, then their genetic impact would also have been relatively small - even if their cultural impact was enormous (which it evidently was). Since language and culture are not genetic traits, discussing genetic similarities and differences does little to either confirm or counter the observation that a string of north-east Asian cultures, including the Japanese and Korean ones, are related.
It's quite common for cultural traits to spread differently from genetic ones. Today, for instance, many people speak English who have no English ancestry whatsoever.
Originally posted by pebbles
I'm an American student of linguistics, and I can guarantee you that the Ryukyuan and Japanese languages share a very large percentage of cognate vocabulary . . . And so, I repeat, Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are indisputably related. |
Japan and the Ryukyuan Islands are very close to each other. It would be weird if they didn't share a lot of cognates. They certainly share many cultural similarities as well. But most of these similarities predate the formation of a cohesive Japanese nation (and the "Japanese Empire" is what this thread is about), which only came about through the consolidation of political power made possible by new technologies from the mainland.
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Masakari
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Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 13:34 |
Mikado 御門 was a posthumous title for Japanese Emperor given by the Chinese Imperial Court. |
It is quite new theory to me. But it doesn’t sound probable, because of two reasons.
1. Mikado was used to present Japanese Emperor.
So it was not posthumous title.
2. Mikado can be written by Chinese, but its pronunciation is not Chinese.
“Mi” is a prefix to make a word respectful. “Kado” means “gate” in Japanese. And both Chinese characters are pronounced differently.
I’m interested in why you think it was given by China, because I can learn another theory about it from you. Could you let me know where did you find?
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pebbles
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Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 22:00 |
Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.
A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago. Japanese populations were characterized by the presence of two major (D and O) and two minor (C and N) clades of Y chromosomes, each with several sub-lineages. Haplogroup D chromosomes were present at 34.7% and were distributed in a U-shaped pattern with the highest frequency in the northern Ainu and southern Ryukyuans. In contrast, haplogroup O lineages (51.8%) were distributed in an inverted U-shaped pattern with a maximum frequency on Kyushu. Coalescent analyses of Y chromosome short tandem repeat diversity indicated that haplogroups D and C began their expansions in Japan ~20,000 and ~12,000 years ago, respectively, while haplogroup O-47z began its expansion only ~4,000 years ago. We infer that these patterns result from separate and distinct genetic contributions from both the Jomon and the Yayoi cultures to modern Japanese, with varying levels of admixture between these two populations across the archipelago. The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi, contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.
Abstract:
Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9% of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.
...and...
In summary, our data suggest that Paleolithic male lineages entered Japan at least 12,000-20,000 years ago from Central Asia, and were isolated for thousands of years once land bridges between Japan and continental Asia disappeared at the end of the last glacial maximum (~12,000 years ago). More recently, Y chromosomes that originated in Southeast Asia expanded to Korea and Japan with the spread of wet rice agriculture. The ages and spatial patterns of haplogroups D and O in Japan are concordant with the hypothesis that Y chromosomes spread via a process of demic difussion during the Yayoi period (Sokal and Thomso, 1998). Each of the populations carrying these differentiated lineages made separate contributions to modern Japanese, both genetically and culturally. In contrast to previous models, we propose that the Yayoi Y chromosomes descend from prehistoric farmers that had their origins in Southeastern Asia, perhaps going back to the origin of agriculture in this region. This places the Yayoi in the context of other population expansions stimulated by the acquisition of agriculture, whereby farmer societies gained advantage over hunter-gatherer societies (Diamond and Bellwood, 2003). In this case, however the Jomon hunter gatherers may have held off the onslaught of farmers for thousands of years as a result of their highly succesful brand of subsistence. The dramatic Yayoi transition may have been triggered in 400 B.C. by a combination of developments, such as rice field irrigation, cold-resistant rice strains, an increasing Korean population and the invention of iron tools for producing farming implements (Diamond 1998). The data indicate, however, that Jomon genes survive in contemporary Japanese, possibly because their unique and varied culture complemented that of the immigrant famers.
From Michael F. Hammer et al. (2005)
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Leonidas
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Posted: 25-Oct-2008 at 13:56 |
pebbles, use the other thread for the origin talk. no need to double up
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pebbles
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Posted: 29-Oct-2008 at 16:50 |
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley
The Japanese nation as we know it was established by a group of people who immigrated from Korea a little over 2,000 years ago. The consensus is that they were of Central Asian origin, from Manchuria or Mongolia - not China.
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Present day China geography includes both ' Outer Mongolia ' & ' Manchuria ',so we can also say they ( Wa-jins or Yamato people,neither Sinic nor Koreanic ) migrated from CHINA.
By the way,nearly half of ' documented ' Korea migration was Chinese ancestry.
There are books published on non-Yamato indigenous Hayato & Kumaso were actually related to Chinese ' Wu-Yue ' peoples of China's coastal Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces.
Edited by pebbles - 30-Oct-2008 at 13:16
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rider
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 10:55 |
Originally posted by Voskhod
The Japanese language has no known linguistic relative IIRC. Nor does Korean or Ainu, for that matter. IMHO the languages just developed independently.
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Some scientists consider the Korean language to be similar in it's build-up to the Finno-Ugric languages.
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pebbles
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 13:09 |
There certainly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages.It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 21:39 |
How about similar grammar and vocabularly? Aren't these evidence?
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Σαυρομάτης
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