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hoihoi31 
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 29-Jan-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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 Topic: Japanese EmpirePosted: 29-Jan-2009 at 09:33 |
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Japanese Empire?
that was only for 100 years until 1945.
however, A Yamato(japanese)dynasty is still kept for more than at least 1500 years
it means Emperor's succession in male lineage is kept.
I think Japan should register it in World Heritage. Edited by hoihoi31 - 29-Jan-2009 at 09:38 |
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pebbles
Baron 
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 15:42 |
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* Gina Barnes of the University of Durham in Great Britain admits the possibility while citing the lack of evidence:
“There is no direct historical evidence of a (Japanese) emperor born on the Korean Peninsula. There is considerable evidence of contact with peninsular kings and elites. But given other monarchical systems in which ‘stranger kings’ may be incorporated, such as the British Hanover line, which has produced the current queen, it’s not an impossible thought that the Yamato rulership incorporated foreign allies.” * Walter Edwards of Tenri University in Nara Prefecture downplays the Korean connection: “Would we expect to find that the occupants of the earliest large tombs, the third-century figures who originally carved out the Yamato polity, to have been Korean aristocrats who came over and wrested power from indigenous leaders, helping raise a backward nation up to the level of early statehood? That is what is all too often implied by whisperings of ‘Korean bones’. That view I reject. The emergence of the ancient Yamato polity was an indigenous phenomenon.” online reading source: http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/d...r-korean-genes/
Pai, Hyung Il. "Culture Contact and Culture Change: The Korean Peninsula and its Relations with the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang." World Archaeology 23:3 (February 1992): 306-319.
One of the most controversial topics in Korean archaeology and history concerns the Han Lelang commanderies that were established in the Korean peninsula during the Han dynasty in 108 BC and lasted for 400 years. In the traditional view, the importance of the Lelang in Korean history was seen in its role as the common enemy, at the time when Korea first experienced colonial rule.Such sentiment is so strong that there are actually some Korean ultranationalists who even deny the very existence of the Lelang commandery. This view has been further complicated by the fact that some of the earliest archaeological work on Lelang was initiated by the Japanese around the time of the First World War. Back then, the ulterior motives of territorial claims by the Japanese Government General's Office of Korea over the Korean peninsula and Manchuria made some Japanese Lelang scholars claim that Han Lelang culture in Korea was a purely Han Chinese phenomenon, with no native Korean variants and forms. But what really were the relations between the Korean Peninsula and the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang ? Hyung Il Pai (1992) presented a more balanced theoretical view that may help reconcile the nationalistic view of contemporary Korean scholars with pre-war Japanese colonial interpretations of Han Lelang's position in Korean prehistory. Basically,she argued that social and regional differentiation in the Korean peninsula were not possible without initial Han contact. Before the Lelang period, regional differences find expression ony in terms of minor variation in pottery styles. In contrast, third-century texts of the Weizhi (300 years after initial Han contact) reveal the existence of various guo 国 (or tribal kingdoms) such as Puyo, Koguryo, Okcho, Eastern Ye and Samhan. They are recorded as having distinctively different social organizations, subsistence systems, customs, and rituals.
The most important "traits of civilization" such as iron technology, writing, gold craftsmanship, and intesive rice agriculture, were derived from Han Lelang culture. Such widespread distribution of ideas and technology would not have been possible without the elite distribution network of seals, bronze mirrors, and luxury Han goods which stimlulated the initial exchange network. According to Pai (1992), once this network was established in the core areas of Lelang, it quickly spread to all other parts of Korea and into southern-western Japan, forming the "Lelang Interaction Sphere" in Korean prehistory (that included Koguryo, Wa of Japan, and Samhan - Chinhan, Pyonhan, and Mahan)".Without this initial phase, the second stage of the interaction sphere that comprised Koguryo, Paekche, Silla, and Kofun Japan, would not have been possible. Extensive trade and diplomatic activities were heightened and reinforced by competition and warfare with Yamato Japan and the three kingdoms. These states shared common features in palatial architecture, in the spread of Buddhism and associated sculpture, as well as in gold artwork and jewellery.
References: Pai, Hyung Il. "Lelang and the 'Interaction Sphere': An Alternative Approach to Korean State Formation." Archaeological Review from Cambridge 8:1 (1989): 64-75 http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/content/people_pai.html |
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Bernard Woolley
Pretorian 
Joined: 11-Jun-2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 154 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 17:50 |
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I see. So I guess if we want to find out what ancient Carthaginians were like, all we have to do is take a trip to Lebanon?
Again, you're making arguments based on genetic ancestry that are at best tangential to the issue, which is the political and cultural influence that created the Japanese empire. I have no doubt that Japanese genetics mostly reflect the population of the islands by pre-Yamato peoples, who doubtless provided the vast majority of the genetic material that has gone in to succeeding generations of Japanese. But the fact that these peoples lived on the Japanese archipelago for thousands of years without ever uniying politically, and that the process of unification was associated with a very specific cultural and technological package that did not come from them, suggests that they were not the ones who drove that process.
That's simply not true. While the Altaic theory certainly isn't beyond reproach, and definitely doesn't explain all of Japan and Korea's history, it remains a serious theory and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
At least it's a theory. What you've introduced so far has been a disorganized mish-mash of genetic studies showing modern Japanese are largely descended from the ancient peoples of Japan, of records showing that families with Chinese names have settled in Japan in recent centuries, and of other arguments that have no discernible connection other than that they point out some link that Japanese people have to any place that isn't Korea. So, precisely what theory do you espouse for the formation and expansion of the Japanese imperial state? |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:22 |
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All this Koguryo-Japonic language relation is very limited. There are only a few remains of Koguryo written scripts.
Koguryo language is widely believed to be the most related to Tungusic out of the languages of the 3 Korean kingdoms. If Japanese was more related to Koguryo in terms of linguistics, then why is Japanese language less related to Tungusic then Korean? It's very illogical. |
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Sarmat
Caliph 
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 18:18 |
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I don't understand why you link Altaic theory to the Korean-Japanese relations. It's a logical theory that makes valid assumptions and it's totally unrelated to whatever Japanese-Korean bias etc.
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Σαυρομάτης
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 17:49 |
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Frankly,it's a ' flimsy ' theory though
 .Regarding the Japanese & Korean relatedness is a bias has aspects that reflect cultural/social/historical currents of the moment ( This debate wouldn’t be worth mentioning if it's true or Koreans and non-NE Asian surrogates wouldn't harp on it in cyberspace ).It's a fad of late will fade in due time. About Koguryo language,there are only 60 Koguryo vocabularies identified today and they are close to modern Japanese words but has nothing to do with modern Korean vocabularies.
Greenberg and Ruhlen's Eurasiatic and methodology of mass comparison,read: Stefan Georg & Alexander Vovin "From mass comparison to mess comparison: Greenberg’s Indo-European and its Closest Relatives" Diachronica 20:2. 2003. (pp. 331–362) |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 17:09 |
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Well. The Altaic theory is just quite logical and it doesn't say that Japanese originate from Korean it just says that those languages originate from the common source.
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Σαυρομάτης
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 16:51 |
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In fact,the last believers of the Altaic theory : Starostin and co.
A very critical review of the Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages by Starostin & co should appear in the next issue of Diachronica (international journal of historical linguistics).
The only thing obvious between Korean and Japanese is that they have a similar grammar typology, which isn't a proof of common origin.Of course,there is evidence of an influence between the two languages, but you cannot easily conclude that Japanese has its roots in Korean. Some scholars' opinion is nothing is settled, which means nothing is proved.I don't say that the so-called "Altaic languages" could not be ultimately related, but the current theory doesn't prove that they are. |
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rider
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 31-Oct-2008 at 09:48 |
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Yeah, the Korean and Finnish/Estonian, likely also Hungarian, have an extremely similar build-up and the grammar rules, as far as I know.
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 21:39 |
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How about similar grammar and vocabularly? Aren't these evidence?
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Σαυρομάτης
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 13:09 |
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There certainly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages.It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true.
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rider
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 30-Oct-2008 at 10:55 |
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Some scientists consider the Korean language to be similar in it's build-up to the Finno-Ugric languages. |
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 29-Oct-2008 at 16:50 |
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Present day China geography includes both ' Outer Mongolia ' & ' Manchuria ',so we can also say they ( Wa-jins or Yamato people,neither Sinic nor Koreanic ) migrated from CHINA.
By the way,nearly half of ' documented ' Korea migration was Chinese ancestry.
There are books published on non-Yamato indigenous Hayato & Kumaso were actually related to Chinese ' Wu-Yue ' peoples of China's coastal Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces.
 here is one example ... http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E9%9A%BC%E4%BA%BA%E6%97%8F%E5%91%89%E4%BA%BA%E8%AA%AC-%E4%B9%85%E3%80%85%E7%9F%A5-%E6%AD%A6/dp/4797471239
Edited by pebbles - 30-Oct-2008 at 13:16 |
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
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Posted: 25-Oct-2008 at 13:56 |
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pebbles, use the other thread for the origin talk. no need to double up
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 22:00 |
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Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.
A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago. Japanese populations were characterized by the presence of two major (D and O) and two minor (C and N) clades of Y chromosomes, each with several sub-lineages. Haplogroup D chromosomes were present at 34.7% and were distributed in a U-shaped pattern with the highest frequency in the northern Ainu and southern Ryukyuans. In contrast, haplogroup O lineages (51.8%) were distributed in an inverted U-shaped pattern with a maximum frequency on Kyushu. Coalescent analyses of Y chromosome short tandem repeat diversity indicated that haplogroups D and C began their expansions in Japan ~20,000 and ~12,000 years ago, respectively, while haplogroup O-47z began its expansion only ~4,000 years ago. We infer that these patterns result from separate and distinct genetic contributions from both the Jomon and the Yayoi cultures to modern Japanese, with varying levels of admixture between these two populations across the archipelago. The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi, contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence. Abstract:
Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9% of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.
...and...
In summary, our data suggest that Paleolithic male lineages entered Japan at least 12,000-20,000 years ago from Central Asia, and were isolated for thousands of years once land bridges between Japan and continental Asia disappeared at the end of the last glacial maximum (~12,000 years ago). More recently, Y chromosomes that originated in Southeast Asia expanded to Korea and Japan with the spread of wet rice agriculture. The ages and spatial patterns of haplogroups D and O in Japan are concordant with the hypothesis that Y chromosomes spread via a process of demic difussion during the Yayoi period (Sokal and Thomso, 1998). Each of the populations carrying these differentiated lineages made separate contributions to modern Japanese, both genetically and culturally. In contrast to previous models, we propose that the Yayoi Y chromosomes descend from prehistoric farmers that had their origins in Southeastern Asia, perhaps going back to the origin of agriculture in this region. This places the Yayoi in the context of other population expansions stimulated by the acquisition of agriculture, whereby farmer societies gained advantage over hunter-gatherer societies (Diamond and Bellwood, 2003). In this case, however the Jomon hunter gatherers may have held off the onslaught of farmers for thousands of years as a result of their highly succesful brand of subsistence. The dramatic Yayoi transition may have been triggered in 400 B.C. by a combination of developments, such as rice field irrigation, cold-resistant rice strains, an increasing Korean population and the invention of iron tools for producing farming implements (Diamond 1998). The data indicate, however, that Jomon genes survive in contemporary Japanese, possibly because their unique and varied culture complemented that of the immigrant famers.
From Michael F. Hammer et al. (2005)
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Masakari
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Joined: 23-Oct-2008 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 13:34 |
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It is quite new theory to me. But it doesn’t sound probable, because of two reasons. 1. Mikado was used to present Japanese Emperor. So it was not posthumous title. 2. Mikado can be written by Chinese, but its pronunciation is not Chinese. “Mi” is a prefix to make a word respectful. “Kado” means “gate” in Japanese. And both Chinese characters are pronounced differently. I’m interested in why you think it was given by |
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Bernard Woolley
Pretorian
Joined: 11-Jun-2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 154 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 04:49 |
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First of all, I think your phrenological theories are inaccurate, and little more than outdated stereotypes. Myself, I have yet to notice any significant difference between the head size and "stockiness" of Japanese and Koreans. Secondly (and more importantly), if the group or groups of people who immigrated to Japan and came to dominate it were relatively small, which they almost definitely were, then their genetic impact would also have been relatively small - even if their cultural impact was enormous (which it evidently was). Since language and culture are not genetic traits, discussing genetic similarities and differences does little to either confirm or counter the observation that a string of north-east Asian cultures, including the Japanese and Korean ones, are related. It's quite common for cultural traits to spread differently from genetic ones. Today, for instance, many people speak English who have no English ancestry whatsoever.
Japan and the Ryukyuan Islands are very close to each other. It would be weird if they didn't share a lot of cognates. They certainly share many cultural similarities as well. But most of these similarities predate the formation of a cohesive Japanese nation (and the "Japanese Empire" is what this thread is about), which only came about through the consolidation of political power made possible by new technologies from the mainland. |
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 03:20 |
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Not all accepted concepts are accurate.
Case in point,' SE Asia ' has been falsely representative geographical region for Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia and South Pacific island nations.
Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia are no where near eastern part of Asia continent.
SW Asia = Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia
South Asia = India Pakistan Ceylon
Asia Pacific = Malaysia Indonesia,Singapore,Philippines,etc
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 06:30 |
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It is not only Japanese people who recognize that the Ryukyuan languages belong in the same family as the Japanese language/dialects. I'm an American student of linguistics, and I can guarantee you that the Ryukyuan and Japanese languages share a very large percentage of cognate vocabulary. This is a very soundly established fact; it should not be considered alongside the likes of ridiculous attempts to relate the Japanese language to .. Hawaiian .. Korean .. Basque .. or whatever.
For example, here is a list of the first four words in the "Adjectives" section of the online Nakijin Dialect Dictionary (includes voice samples): /?a'iguruuseN/ ("rare, seldom occurring") = Japanese */ar-i-gurusi-i/ ("painfully difficult to be") (This word does not actually exist in Japanese, but it hypothetically could, and it would be cognate with the Nakijin form.) /?a[?k]aaseN/ ("red") = Japanese /aka-i/ ("red") /?aQseN/ ("shallow") = Japanese /asa-i/ ("shallow") /?aQcibeeseN/ ("walks with a fast pace, to be a fast walker") = Japanese */aruk-i-baya-i/ (hypothetically could exist in Japanese with the same meaning, but Japanese people do not actually use this expression) To anyone who knows Japanese, these words look and sound like some sort of weird Japanese dialect, and not a truly foreign language. More importantly, regular "laws" of sound change can be formulated to explain the development of the observed Ryukyuan forms and the observed Japanese forms from their common ancestral language, Proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan (or Proto-Japonic, whatever you may call it). And so, I repeat, Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are indisputably related. |
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pebbles
Baron
Joined: 12-Oct-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 409 |
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Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 05:51 |
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Actually,in term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different. Majority modern day Koreans have broader face and big head,whereas the Japanese have mostly sharp narrower face and small head.
Also,most Koreans are stocky build oppose to the Japanese are mostly smaller build. These basic physical characteristics are sufficient to ' debunk ' any argement that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than other NE Asian group as a few die-hard internet enthusiasts keep insisting unless they believe it's result of ' abnormality genes ' in their DNA. |
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