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malizai_
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Alcinous
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Topic: Holocaust Deniers Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 19:43 |
Originally posted by King John
First off I didn't put the Israel comment in as a mere side event. I placed that there as a major concession admitting that the Holocaust was the main reason for Israel's establishment. |
So do you think the state of Israel is justified by uprooting Palestinians?
Originally posted by King John
Second who is twisting criticism of Israel into anti-semitism? I don't believe I have ever brought up anti-semitism in this thread.
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That is why no one has said that you did.
Originally posted by King John
Also I fail to see how Zionists twisting any criticism into anti-semitism is milking the Holocaust. It is merely a reaction to a perceived offense. As to your question "why use the term 'semite' then? I don't believe I know what you are trying to get at here. Are you trying to say that modern Jews are not a semitic people and that this lack of semiticism negates any and all claims on the territory of Israel?
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So what purpose does the twisting of Zionist criticism into anti-semitism fulfill? to what effect is the term anti-semitism loaded?.
To your second question, most Jews speak a non semitic language, Yiddish (isn't that some from of Germanic?) and no they are not semitic, except for the Yemeni Jews who were mass airlifted in the 'Magic carpet' operation. Rupert Murdoch is not a semite, , neither is Ehud olmert semites. So Rupert Murdoch is not entitled to a summer house in Palestine, at the expense of a Palestinian, based on what happened three thousand years ago. So no they don't have any claims on the territory of Palestine. The only Jews that do are those who were living in Palestine before Israel, and 'bought' their land to live on.
Originally posted by King John
Also you said Jews milk the Holocaust which I categorically disagree with. The statement in question smacks of broad generalizations not all Jews milk the Holocaust. Just like not all Jews are Zionists. This is a broad generalization that isn't even close to true. The truth of the matter is that if the Holocaust is being milked it is being milked by many people. |
Here i have a bit of a problem with your statement, and i don't know if you have deliberately inserted "Jews" instead of 'Zionists'. So ironically it seems, you yourself have broadened the statement, where as i was speaking specifically and in context. I know well the difference between Jews, Zionist, and all the in betweens. As you can see here:
BTW, Who other than the Zionists is milking the holocaust? and how?
EDIT: Had Dick Cheney down as being Jewish. Has been deleted.
Edited by malizai_ - 07-Mar-2008 at 22:03
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 22:26 |
Hello Maliazi
Dick Cheney is an episcopalian christian from English ancestry and has nothing to do with Jews. As for criticising Israel, it is anti-semitism according to Merriam-Webster. Also the ADL considers almost all criticism of Israel as driven by anti-semetic sentiments no matter how justified it was.
Al-Jassas
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Parnell
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Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 22:32 |
People who criticise people for criticising Israel and claiming their being anti-semitic are ridiculous.
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malizai_
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 21:59 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Hello Maliazi
Dick Cheney is an episcopalian christian from English ancestry and has nothing to do with Jews. As for criticising Israel, it is anti-semitism according to Merriam-Webster. Also the ADL considers almost all criticism of Israel as driven by anti-semetic sentiments no matter how justified it was.
Al-Jassas |
Thxs for the correction Al jassas, i was afflicted by his AIPAC connection. I shall correct that. As for ADL, i think it is playing politics plain and simple, if it says that. What's Merriam-Webster? and who cares?. Those that hate Jews are Jew-haters or anti-Jews.
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King John
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 22:20 |
Rupert Murdoch isn't a Jew either. Here is his genealogy:
Murdoch ancestors
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malizai_
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 22:47 |
RUPERT MURDOCH, Owner Fox TV, New York Post, London Times, News of the World (Jewish mother) http://www.rense.com/general60/stun.htm
I don't keep individual records of Jewish people, so I jotted down the first three I could think of. The specific individual is actually really not that important, i could find many if need be to illustrate the same point.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 23:07 |
His mother is an Irish protestant Protestant:
Al-Jassas
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King John
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 23:20 |
Murdoch's mother is Dame Elisabeth Murdoch who was born Elisabeth Joy Greene in Melbourne to an Irish Protestant father and an upper-class English mother. Making her not Jewish, ergo Rupert Murdoch not a Jew, a Zionist maybe but Jew, no. That link/site is hardly accurate, look at where it takes its information from. At the bottom there is a disclaimer that says:
"Opinions expressed in various sections are the sole responsibility of their authors and they may not represent Al-Jazeerah's.
editor@aljazeerah.info"
Now when we go back to the mainsite we can clearly see that this is not a reputable site. It has links to stories about UFO's and not to mention a link to a story about how some writer invented the 6 million figure (re # of Jews who died in Holocaust).
If we google Jeff Rense we find that he is a conspiracy theorist who thinks that Zionists are behind every bad thing going on in the world. Why should we believe him when he says Murdoch is/was a Jew? If being a Jew is only a religious Identity and not a racial or ethnic one than how is he Jewish if he (Murdoch) does not accept the tenets of Judaism but instead acknowledges Jesus Christ as his lord and savior (as Christians do)?
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HEROI
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Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 23:42 |
I always thought Murdoch was Jewish to.I am surprised to find out he is not.
From holocaust deniers,the topic went to criticising Izrael.Thats the problem,as i try to explain previously,the Holocaust and present day politics surounding the middle east conflict are different things.
As for Izrael i would like to add that it is a democratic country who respects the right of its citezins,including Arabs.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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malizai_
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Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 00:25 |
As i said before i tried to think of three famous people that were jewish. As for rense, upon googling Murdoch and Jewish, the first site that came up was http://www.jewwatch.com/, which i didn't want to report from for the obvious reasons. Rense came second, but is not the only place that reports of him as being Jewish.
Born: 11-Mar-1931 Birthplace: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male Religion: Christian [1] Race or Ethnicity: White Sexual orientation: Straight Occupation: Business
Nationality: United States Executive summary: Founder and CEO of News Corp
Ok! lets have someone that is not controversial.(If it makes any difference).
I. Lewis Scooter Libby Jr.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 05:41 |
Sykes, Balfour, Churchill, Lloyd George and many more, all of them were staunch Zionists and non were jew. at any given case I think that in a country that claims freedom of speech, the Holocaust issue must be open and the government has no authority on what people should say. But if the country does limit freedoms than they have no right whatsoever to except other groups from the privalge they have given to the holocaust specifically and anti-semitism in general.
Al-Jassas
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Majkes
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Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 08:12 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Sykes, Balfour, Churchill, Lloyd George and many more, all of them were staunch Zionists and non were jew. at any given case I think that in a country that claims freedom of speech, the Holocaust issue must be open and the government has no authority on what people should say. But if the country does limit freedoms than they have no right whatsoever to except other groups from the privalge they have given to the holocaust specifically and anti-semitism in general.
Al-Jassas |
Churchill wasn't Zionist. He didn't care about Jews. Don't know how is with the rest.
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Guests
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Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 12:00 |
Balfour was as was Lolyd George.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 16:22 |
Hello to you all
Churchill was at least sympathetic to the Zionist cause if not a Zionist. he voted against the White paper of 1939 which calls for limiting migration towards Palestine and calling for an independent Palestine with guarantees for the jewish populace. It also banned colonization and land purchases from foreign organizations. Lloyd George was not just any Zionist, he hated Arab and especially Turks and Balfour was no different. He handpicked Sykes to divide Syria and was behind Balfour decleration even before taking Palestine from the Ottomans.
Al-Jassas
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edgewaters
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Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 09:34 |
Originally posted by Parnell
An emotive issue sure, but what do you think is the issue here? Should we lock them up for expressing an opinion, no matter how repulsive? Personally I think allowing these idiots speak in civilised discourse makes them ruin their own arguments. The more these monsters speak, the more we shake our heads and laugh at their absurdity. I have spent time just reading threads on Stormfront - My reactions were a bitter mix of laughter, frustration, anger and pity. No matter what we may think of their opinions, they have no right to be in prison for expressing them. What about you? |
Inprinciple,Iagreewiththissentiment. But I have a few caveats. This sort of propaganda is associated with white power organizations, who often espouse other views, sometimes calling for violence. White power organizations have, over the last 30 years or so, been responsible for a large number of criminal acts ranging from political violence by assaulting persons, to kidnapping, bank robbery, drug trafficking, and murder - in at least one case, of a police officer.Nottomentionattemptedcrimes,likeMatthewHale'splottomurderafederaljudge. White power publications also inspired the largest act of domestic terrorism in US history, the OklahomaCitybombing. For these reasons, it is not unreasonable that police agencies pay a little extra attention to people, and especially organizations, espousing holocaust denial.
Edited by edgewaters - 09-Mar-2008 at 09:38
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pekau
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Posted: 07-May-2008 at 20:03 |
Holocaust denials are fine... they just need to be reasonable enough to give the reliable evidence. They should realize that it's impossible to convince the majority that it's a lie, especially when millions of Jews did end up being dead or disappeared during WWII.
Starting talking sense, and we will take their words more seriously. I am tolerant about the fact that the numerical figure (6 million) can be disputed due to lack of solid evidence (Difficult in wartime, especially when Germans burned much of their records), but they didn't managed to hide the aftermath of holacoust...
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red clay
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Posted: 07-May-2008 at 21:09 |
Originally posted by pekau
Holocaust denials are fine... they just need to be reasonable enough to give the reliable evidence. They should realize that it's impossible to convince the majority that it's a lie, especially when millions of Jews did end up being dead or disappeared during WWII.
Starting talking sense, and we will take their words more seriously. I am tolerant about the fact that the numerical figure (6 million) can be disputed due to lack of solid evidence (Difficult in wartime, especially when Germans burned much of their records), but they didn't managed to hide the aftermath of holacoust... |
Pekau, I don't know your source for the burning of records but it goes against everything I've read and know. The one thing that cooked the Nazis at Nurnberg was their records. The Nazis were obsessive when it came to keeping records. Destroying them would have gone against everything they believed in.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Parnell
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Posted: 07-May-2008 at 21:33 |
Churchill came out with a pretty characteristic response to the Zionist cause. He said something along the lines of the 'ridiculousness' of preventing an industrious people from improving land...
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pekau
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Posted: 07-May-2008 at 23:52 |
Originally posted by red clay
Pekau, I don't know your source for the burning of records but it goes against everything I've read and know. The one thing that cooked the Nazis at Nurnberg was their records. The Nazis were obsessive when it came to keeping records. Destroying them would have gone against everything they believed in.
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Damn, I can't seem to find the source. I am pretty sure that Germans began to burn their records after Hitler's death and prior to their surrender. I will have to get back to you on this one...
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Brian J Checco
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Posted: 08-May-2008 at 04:18 |
No, we have extensively compiled records of pretty much everyone who passed through Auschwitz, Dachau, etc. The Nazis recorded names, prisoner numbers (the numbers tattooed on the prisoners), and even minute details down to amounts of food issued day by day, medical procedures, medical experiments, etc. Also, many of the doctors in the camps, as well as Wardens (or whatever they were called), kept exhaustive journal and diaries from which much information was gleaned.
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My Name is Eli Manning. Ponce owns my soul.
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