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Al Jassas 
Arch Duke 
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Holocaust DeniersPosted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:24 |
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Hello King John
There is no problem in giving back money that belonged to Jewish victims to let say charitable organizations or close relatives since most wealthy jews had relatives all over the world, but what does Israel have to do with the money? They have as much right to the money as I do and what boggs me is much of the money went to illigal jewish settlements, the Israeli army and maybe even Israel's nuclear program. It is not certain Jewish citizens that recieve the money it is the state itself. Anyway read the book, Finklestein is not Chomsky, he is a mainstream writer and many modertate mainstream jews support what he said in his book which was confiscated in some European countries if I am not mistaken.
Al-Jassas
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King John
Chieftain 
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:34 |
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Hello Al Jassas,
What does Israel have to do with the money? Well other than the fact that it has the most Jewish Holocaust survivors in the world, I guess Israel has nothing to do with it (I hope you are picking up on my sarcasm). By the way countries give money to other countries all the time with out getting anything in return but more often than not their is an exchange of goods. Again I cite that Germany could be paying reparations to the nation with the highest amount of Jewish Holocaust survivors. I know who Finklestein is and he is less mainstream than Chomsky who has more support among Jews then Finklestein does. |
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 19:00 |
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Nobody here said that sufferers from the Holocaust should be compensated and given back their money, what I am saying that the State of Israel, since the overwhelming majority of its citizens did not suffer from the Holocaust either directly or indirectly, has no right what so ever in claiming compensation for itself. as for Finklestein I wonder what is the thing that is not mainstream about him. He is a specialist on the subject he talks about and does not divert from it like Chomsky. He has ever been attacked ever since he took on a journalist, not a historian or a political scientist, who wrote crap back in the 80s when nobody dared to do what he did. Al-Jassas
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King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 19:22 |
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Chomsky is more mainstream because he is more widely read. If one takes into account the fact that Israel was founded mostly by people escaping from the Holocaust and other anti-semitic government sponsored programs in Europe than most people born in Israel to this day are descendants of people directly impacted by the Holocaust, in my eyes that means that they are indirectly if not directly affected by the Holocaust. By the way we are both off topic right now but you still haven't answered my question.
To get us back on topic I will say this: Laws outlawing Holocaust denials are unjust and should be stricken from the records. If people want to show their ignorance then let them. The only way these stances should be illegal is if they act to provoke people to harmful actions against Jews, Romani, Gays, or anybody else who was persecuted during the Holocaust committed by the Nazis. |
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ulrich von hutten
Tsar 
Court Jester Joined: 01-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 3638 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 19:49 |
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I, my freind,was absent,might be i was in the medulla of my dad then, but some of my ancestors were not. Some were victims and some were actors.
There were nazis, there were followers, some look awayers and a few oppositioners.
They were Germans like my dad was, they were men like i am, so what do you mean?
Do you really think i can't evaluate who was guilty and who was not?
Nazis in mind are still around me, here in Iceland or anywhere else i had been in my life.
I'm not a nazi and so i do have the bloody right and the duty to remind those who can't remember any more.
Yes, they were the nazis, no matter whether it was my grandma or my uncle. And if you had followed many threads on AE you will have noticed that i didn't make a difference by naming the cruel of all kinds.
btw, i'm Icelander like i'm german, cause my mother added the nordic blood while my daddy gave my the genes of the nazi population.
I'm prussian like i'm viking, a real dangerous mixture.
Edited by ulrich von hutten - 05-Mar-2008 at 19:50 |
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 20:30 |
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We live in different mindsets then. You preciesly said: Other than the establishment of Israel in 1948 what political agendas have Jews furthered by "milking"" the holocaust?
I gave you non-governmental and governmental moneymakers. If see it any other way that is your choice. Granted this has nothing to do about my views on free speech or Holacaust survivors, denial or any of the sort. My links only show a direct link to financial gains for events over 60 years ago. And if you do not think there is not a political agenda intertwinded then no amount of proof will wake you up. Edited by Seko - 05-Mar-2008 at 20:30 |
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 21:00 |
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Sympathy for Holocaust survivors is one thing. Creating a business of it is another. But does the trend stop there or does political maneuvering enter the frey? The lack of understanding an interplay between aiding charity networks versus an underlying political machine needs restating. Money, one would assume, should only go to Holocaust survivors and thier families. Insurance claims are then legit. When governmental favoritism takes advantage of this originally altruistic benefit then things get fishy. Recently, Holocaust survivor organizations in America have complained that they do not have enough influence over allocation of funds. The Israeli government also has made past bids for a larger role in the process.http://www.forward.com/articles/israel-demands-say-over-holocaust-funds/ In recent months, it has been the Israeli government that has received criticism for its treatment of survivors. In particular, a few months ago, the Fund for the Social Welfare of Holocaust Survivors in Israel almost closed because it did not have enough money. The government provides only 5% of its budget.
The buck doesn't stop there. Evidently, though not necessarily connected, Israel receives 6.8 million dollars dailly from the United States for economic and military aid. Compare that to a neighboring people that can also lay claims to being victims of persecution, the Palestinians, and the numbers show a disproportionate level.
Take into consideration that AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) is the second largets lobby group in the US. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1997/12/08/234927/index.htm Edited by Seko - 05-Mar-2008 at 22:38 |
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King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 21:13 |
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While this is true the US gives more money to Israel than to Palestinians, what does it have to do with the Holocaust? What proof do you have that this isn't just a relic of the Cold War (the US supporting the lone "Democracy" (at the time) in the Middle East with the Soviet Union supporting nations like Syria)? |
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King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 21:15 |
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Maybe I should have specified my definition of furthering a political agenda. |
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 21:27 |
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To answer your first post I said, not necessarily connected. But anyone with an imagination who cries about CAIR being a false charity (not you btw) to moslems then one certainly can suspect that not every charitable dollar in the name of Holocaust victims is safely in secure deserving hands. Which led to my point of an strong interplay between Israel and the USA which gets unprecedented favoritism over any other aid trading country. Furthering a political agenda is a wild guess too. Do we need to be repeatedly reminded of this through cinema, television and such? Maybe so for those with poor historical memories. However, like most purposes in life there is always a secondary gain. Whether we agree or differ is of no matter to this thread. |
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Temujin
King 
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 22:12 |
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it was family guy, not simpsons. anyways, my grandfathers were indeed absent, but they were not exactly on vacation but instead had to fear for their lives on the eastern front for example and eventually ended up in a soviet coal mine as PoW. is it hard to understand germans also suffered at the hands of the nazis? do you also think those germans of jewish faith that died in those camps were not less german than i am? many of them didn't even knew they were jews until the nazis told them they have non-german ancestry...
shoah is the more accurate name for the holocaust Edited by Temujin - 05-Mar-2008 at 22:13 |
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malizai_
Sultan 
Alcinous Joined: 05-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2252 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 22:25 |
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"Other than the establishment of Israel in 1948"
At least you admit something. Even if you seem to pass that comment as trivial fact barely making into the footnotes, a mere side event. This fact is nothing of that sort. It is the central issue, with repercussions for the region as well as world health.
Another political and some what irksome use by Zionists is to twist criticism of Israel into anti-semitism, to stifle any meaningful debate. Why use the term 'semite' then?, to attempt a connection with the historical Israelis who 'were' semites.
Ben Gurion: "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit wheras we want to come here and settle down, and in their view, we want to take away from them their country."
Here is an example of the political use of Holocaust:
Olmert Says Zionism Will Prevent Second Holocaustjpost Jan 29, 2008 Israel cannot stand on the sidelines and watch Iran attain offensive nuclear capabilities, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Monday, forging an implied link between the Iranian regime and the Third Reich during a special Knesset session to mark International Holocaust Memorial Day. "The Jewish people will never again be homeless and powerless as they were during the Holocaust," the prime minister said. "But our ears are more attuned and our sensitivity is higher to threats of destruction than other nations. We do not allow ourselves to remain complacent when we hear voices calling for the annihilation of Israel, especially when behind those voicing the threats is a fanatical, murderous ideology; a despotic terror-supporting regime that strives inexhaustibly to achieve regional hegemony and a malicious nuclear weapons development program. As far as we are concerned, as far as the Holocaust-taught Jewish people are concerned, this is an intolerable situation." "On the International Holocaust Memorial Day we demand action from the international community," Olmert said. "We respect and value the governments and leaders that assume a decisive stance against this danger, [and] we call upon others whose stance is influenced by various interest-driven calculations to relinquish any foreign consideration and pose a unified determined front to remove the ominous peace- threatening shadow." -------
Contrast with this:
and for a good laugh.
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xristar
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Nov-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 1028 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 22:37 |
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Ulrich and temujin, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Don't get agitated.
 I'm just saying germans must get friends with their past eventually.
How is that? (I mean what does 'Shoah' mean exactly? Why is it more accurate?) |
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Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
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King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 00:01 |
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First off I didn't put the Israel comment in as a mere side event. I placed that there as a major concession admitting that the Holocaust was the main reason for Israel's establishment. Second who is twisting criticism of Israel into anti-semiticism? I don't believe I have ever brought up anti-semiticism in this thread. Also I fail to see how Zionists twisting any criticism into anti-semiticism is milking the Holocaust. It is merely a reaction to a perceived offense. As to your question "why use the term 'semite' then? I don't believe I know what you are trying to get at here. Are you trying to say that modern Jews are not a semitic people and that this lack of semiticism negates any and all claims on the territory of Israel? Also you said Jews milk the Holocaust which I categorically disagree with. The statement in question smacks of broad generalizations not all Jews milk the Holocaust. Just like not all Jews are Zionists. This is a broad generalization that isn't even close to true. The truth of the matter is that if the Holocaust is being milked it is being milked by many people. |
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HEROI
Baron 
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 00:16 |
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Ok ,i think that people who deny the Holocaust can confidently be called stupid.actually with big letters STUPID.Also many other things.The only clever ones are the ones who do this deliberately.(exept stupid all other things apply to them).
So acording to them milions of Jews disaapeared during the war in a misterious way?
Or do they actually deny the fact they disapeared?????
The creation of Izrael,the policies of America and other political events have nothing to do with the historical truth of holocaust.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 00:53 |
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Of course it doesn't. Having read our posts you already knew that too. Anyway I suppose we should all stick to the topic.
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Cezar
Chieftain
Joined: 09-Nov-2005 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 1211 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 07:39 |
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They kicked Britain out but weren't the British that allowed them to settle there? Israel was created artificially... Oh, wait that's the other thread.
You ask how do Jews use the Holocaust to further a political agenda. First, it's not "the Jews". Some groups are using the Holocaust in their political or material quests. The example of Germany is quite relevant. As the defetead side in a war it is OK for a country to pay for the damage done. The problem is that Germany paid more to Israel than to USSR for example. And even now there are individuals that claim for the Germans to give them money in the name of the victims of the Holocaust. You mentioned private property stolen from the Jews by the Nazis. Is there an inventory of these things? You might say that the Nazis erased all evidence that showed who those properties belonged to. But that doesn't change the fact that any claim made without being backed by evidence is controversial.
And the worst evidence that Holocaust is used by politicians is the fact that in some countryes there are laws that restrict the freedom of speech for those that do not believe in the Holocaust. Think of a person that didn't had the chance to be properly educated so he just doesn't believe the "story of the Holocaust". The moment he makes his belief public he might be thrown in the jail. Does he think the same about soviet civil losses in the war? No problem, he can brag about it loud and clear, no harm will come to him from the law. That's at least double standard. And such laws do no good to the victims of the slaughter. On the contrary. And yes, these laws are used for political purpose. Either positively or negatively. A nationalist would profit from them by highlighting the fact that jews only beneficiate.
And "Holocaust Denial"(HD) is not formalized. One controversial thing about the Holocaust is the number of Jews that were effectively victims of the Holocaust. This could be a debate. But in some places you might get the hammer for saying that you have doubts. That's an obvious use of the Holocaust.
If I say such a thing nobody might give a damn. But if I would be a billionaire, if something about the Holocaust would come out of my mouth then ....
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Parnell
Suspended 
Suspended Joined: 04-Apr-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 13:16 |
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Anyone remember what happened the last time the Germans had to pay reparations?
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Styrbiorn
Caliph 
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2810 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 13:55 |
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I repeat what others have said. People should be allowed to make themselves look stupid by denying it. Infringements should not be made on the freedom of speech. If anything, this would only victimise the deniers.
It's Hebrew for cataclysm/calamity. It's not more "accurate", since the words have the same meaning. Besides, it wouldn't make sense to use it in other languages either, since it doesn't mean anything (Swedish is an exception I guess, where tjoa, pronounced the same way, mean "joyful yelling"...). |
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Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 19:36 |
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we are, or what exactly do you mean in particular?
Shoah is how Jews themselves call it. Holocaust was the title of an American TV show about the genocide, and eventually the name carried on, sort of how 3. Reich carried on even though the name was hardly used nor encouraged by the Nazis. |
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