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Chinese Military Conduct Against Steppe Armies

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinese Military Conduct Against Steppe Armies
    Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 19:38
i am with Charioteer on this one, who have more authority to claim the origin of Li Shimin than his descendents? Sarmat, the Brazilian example you used is entirely different from what Charioteer is talking about here, and i believe you are twisting the fact a little. The evidences provided by Charioteer are perfectly valid, there is no question about it.
 
Although i am not sure of whether Li zhimin was in fact the descendent of Laozi, but it seems that Taizong and the rest of Li clan all claims to be the descendent of Laozi and that is one big difference between Lizhimin and Kangxi, Kangci never deny the fact that he was a manchu.


Edited by Siege Tower - 22-Mar-2008 at 19:39
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 22:33
they only provided the paternal lineage, if Li Shimins mother was Xianbei, it is already prooven he was partially of Turkic blood.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 22:42
you are absolutely right, and that was already established, what we are discussing here is whether Li shimin" kindness toward turk generals was due to his origin, which according to Sarmat, was Tobagach. 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 23:40
Ok. I already wrote several times that Li Shimin's popularity among Turks was caused by his very advance knowledge of the steppe culture and respect to this culture. It was not his blood per se. If he would be raised in complete ignorance of Steppe culture and in the environment of complete disrespect to the Northern barbarians, his blood wouldn't play a role in this at all.
I'm just saying that his partial origins from Xianbei facilitated his familiriazation and positive attitude to Steppans. Is it clear now?
My point about Tabgachs is not that important in this regard. In order to make you happy I can agree that Li Shimin was Chinese, but IMO he belonged to a special subethnic group of Chinese, blended with the nomades, who were borderguards and were somehow influenced by the Steppe culture. Some scientists call these people a distinct ethnicity. I'm totally happy, if you just a call it a special subethnic group of Chinese. No doubt that one of the reasons of the formation of this special subethnic group was the intermixing with the nomades.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 23:52
Ok, this thread is getting a little bit out of hand now. This thread will be locked for 1-2 days to allow everyone to cool off.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 07:57
Unlocked.

Count this as a reminder before you write your next post to keep everything polite & civilised.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 11:22

Originally posted by Siege Tower

you are absolutely right

The claim that "Lishimin's mother was Xianbei" is not "absolutely right",

"太宗文武大圣大广孝皇帝讳世民,高祖第二子也。母曰太穆顺圣皇后窦氏"
http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/oldtangsu/jts_002.htm

Lishimin's mother was from the Chinese Dou clan, not a Xianbei clan, and how did she become "Turkic"?

Originally posted by Siege Tower

what we are discussing here is whether Li shimin" kindness toward turk generals was due to his origin, which according to Sarmat, was Tobagach.

旧唐书(The former book of Tang)

本纪第一
高祖(Li Yuan)

"贞观八年三月甲戌,高祖宴西突厥使者于两仪殿,顾谓长孙无忌曰:当今蛮夷率服,古未尝有。无忌上千万岁寿。高祖大悦,以酒赐太宗。太宗又奉觞上寿,流涕而言曰:百姓获安,四夷咸附,皆奉遵圣旨,岂臣之力!于是太宗与文德皇后互进御膳,并上服御衣物,一同家人常礼。是岁,阅武于城西,高祖亲自临视,劳将士而还。置酒于未央宫,三品已上咸侍。高祖命突厥颉利可汗起舞,又遣南越酋长冯智戴咏诗,既而笑曰:胡、越一家,自古未之有也。太宗奉觞上寿曰:臣早蒙慈训,教以文道;爰从义旗,平定京邑。重以薛举、武周、世充、建德,皆上禀睿算,幸而克定。三数年间,混一区宇。天慈崇宠,遂蒙重任。今上天垂祐,时和岁阜,被发左衽,并为臣妾。此岂臣智力,皆由上禀圣算。高祖大悦,群臣皆呼万岁,极夜方罢。"

1-Both Li Yuan and Lishimin used the word "Man yi"or "yi"(often translated in English as "barbarian", but more comprehensive interpretation would be "non-Chinese") to refer Turks.
 
2-In Lishimin's own language, Southern Yue chief was referred to as "hair unknotted", while Turk chief was referred to as"clothes left-lapeled",
 
having hair knotted and having clothes right-lapeled are ancient Han Chinese customs,
 
clearly, Lishimin regarded himself as Chinese, while the Southern Yue and Turk were regarded as "non-Chinese".
 

旧唐书

本纪第二
太宗上(Taizong Lishimin)

"七年秋,突厥颉利、突利二可汗自原州入寇,侵扰关中。有说高祖云:只为府藏子女在京师,故突厥来,若烧却长安而不都,则胡寇自止。高祖乃遣中书侍郎宇文士及行山南可居之地,即欲移都。萧瑀等皆以为非,然终不敢犯颜正谏。太宗独曰:霍去病,汉廷之将帅耳,犹且志灭匈奴。臣忝备籓维,尚使胡尘不息,遂令陛下议欲迁都,此臣之责也。幸乞听臣一申微效,取彼颉利。若一两年间不系其颈,徐建移都之策,臣当不敢复言。 "

Li Yuan once wanted to relocate the capital when the Turks threatened the security of Tang regime, some officials werent in favor of the decision but were afraid to speak out, its Lishimin who spoke out and strongly urged his father not to move, he compared general Huoqubing of Han dynasty(who defeat the Xiongnu) with himself,
 
"even a general of Han court fulfiled the ambition of eliminating the Xiongnu, as the royal personage who have the responsibility for defense, its my fault to see your majesty wanting to move the capital because the threat of the Hu(Turks) has not been eliminated yet." 
 
"甲戌,突厥颉利、突利寇泾州。乙亥,突厥进寇武功,京师戒严。丙子,立妃长孙氏为皇后。己卯,突厥寇高陵。辛巳,行军总管尉迟敬德与突厥战于泾阳,大破之,斩首千余级。癸未,突厥颉利至于渭水便桥之北,遣其酋帅执失思力入朝为觇,自张形势,太宗命囚之。亲出玄武门,驰六骑幸渭水上,与颉利隔津而语,责以负约。俄而众军继至,颉利见军容既盛,又知思力就拘,由是大惧,遂请和,诏许焉。即日还宫。乙酉,又幸便桥,与颉利刑白马设盟,突厥引退。九月丙戌,颉利献马三千匹、羊万口,帝不受,令颉利归所掠中国户口。丁未,引诸卫骑兵统将等习射于显德殿庭,谓将军已下曰:自古突厥与中国更有盛衰。若轩辕善用五兵,即能北逐獯鬻;周宣驱驰方、召,亦能制胜太原。至汉、晋之君,逮于隋代,不使兵士素习干戈,突厥来侵,莫能抗御,致遗中国生民涂炭于寇手。我今不使汝等穿池筑苑,造诸淫费,农民恣令逸乐,兵士唯习弓马,庶使汝斗战,亦望汝前无横敌。"
 
As i mentioned before "the Turks approached the vicinity of Tang capital with 200,000 men and posed threat to Tang dynasty in 627AD when Lishimin just enthroned as the new emperor",
 
just after the incident Lishimin gathered his generals and told them
 
"From ancient times, Tujue and China have ups and downs, for instance Xuan Yuan(the yellow emperor) was able to repel the Xun yu(predecessor of Xiongnu); King Xuan of Zhou dynasty was also able to achieve victory(against Xian Yun, another name for Xun yu). Until the reign of Han, Jin and Sui, neglect of military discipline contributed to poor defense in the face of Tujue's aggression, which caused the people of China suffer at hands of the invaders.
These days i prohibit you to indulge in leisure and luxury, the peasants are content, soldiers practice shooting and equestrian skills, making you good at fighting, so no enemy would stand in your way."
 

旧唐书(The former book of Tang)

列传第十七

李靖(General Lijing)

"四年,靖进击定襄,破之,获隋齐王暕之子杨正道及炀帝萧后,送于京师,可汗仅以身遁。以功进封代国公,赐物六百段及名马、宝器焉。太宗尝谓曰:昔李陵提步卒五千,不免身降匈奴,尚得书名竹帛。卿以三千轻骑深入虏庭,克复定襄,威振北狄,古今所未有,足报往年渭水之役。"

Taizong commended general Lijing when he won initial victory in Tang's counter offensive against the Turks in 630AD,

"General Liling once commanded 5000 infantry, despite he surrendered to Xiongnu he is still praised. You despite led only 3000 light cavalry and deep into enemy territory still managed victory,shattering the north,an achievement that is unprecedented and enough to avenge the battle of Wei river."

*Liling: general of Western Han dynasty,who managed to fight 80,000 Xiongnu cavalry led by its chief with only 5000 infantry,despite only few hundreds of his men survived and made their way back to Han territory, despite Liling himself was forced to surrender to Xiongnu, he still caused Xiongnu to suffer 10,000 casualties. Emperor Han wudi along with many court officials denounced Liling's surrender and punished his family.Only the author of Shiji(Records of the Grand Historian)Si maqian applauded Liling's military performance, that "even the famous generals of the past cant match"

*Battle of Wei river:The Turk approached vicinity of Tang capital and threatened China with 200,000 men in 627AD, at which time Taizong just enthroned. Hence Lishimin was forced to meet Turk chief in person and with only 6 companion of officials by his side to buy time for Tang army to deploy.The Turks saw no opportunity and "made peace" with Taizong. Taizong ever regarded the incident as "shame".


"太宗初闻靖破颉利,大悦,谓侍臣曰:朕闻主忧臣辱,主辱臣死。往者国家草创,太上皇以百姓之故,称臣于突厥,朕未尝不痛心疾首,志灭匈奴,坐不安席,食不甘味。今者暂动偏师,无往不捷,单于款塞,耻其雪乎!"

When Taizong got the message that Lijing finally defeated the Turks, Taizong was extremely pleased, he told his court "I hear that the subject should feel ashamed if the master is in anxiety, the subject would rather kill himself if the master is insulted. For the sake of the people, The Grand Emperor was forced to submit to the Turks, i ever felt bitter about it, rest fitfully and eat without relish as i swore to eliminate the Xiongnu. Today the victory is achieved without strenuous effort,Chanyu(chief of Xiongnu) is now submited, the insult is avenged!"

http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/oldtangsu/jts_071.htm

From the records of Jiu Tangshu(former book of Tang), Its quite obvious how Li Yuan and Lishimin regarded themselves, and how they regarded the Turks prior to General Lijing's campaign against the Turks(or the defeat of Turks).


Edited by The Charioteer - 31-Mar-2008 at 14:59
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 15:01
To The Charioteer:
 
If you post again the excessive foreign language material without the translation, you will be banned.
 
I already gave you a friendly reminder before which you ignored.
 
The related paragraph of AE Code of Conduct below:
 
B. Inappropriate posting 
 
   9. Excessive posting in other languages. English is the official language in all the forum
sections.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 12:11
Just watched a "Western made" documentary on Australia's SBS channel named "China's great wall", in it the battle with Xiongnu which was fought by Liling's 5,000 infantry was described as 5,000 Chinese soldiers were slaughtered by the mighty nomadic warriors which symbolized the Xiongnu victory over China. 
 
it makes no mention of facts like, Liling's 5,000 infantry were fighting against up to 80,000 Xiongnu cavalry led by Xiongnu chief himself and despite the enemy's superior numbers they caused 10,000 casualties on the Xiongnu with the cost of more than half of his own men were also exterminated;
 
Contrary to SBS documentary, not all 5,000 men were "slaughtered", but about more than 400 of remaining men made it back to China;
 
Also contrary to SBS documentary, Liling's army were not the main force from Chinese expeditionary army, instead the documentary used such example of defeat to summarize the war between Han dynasty and Xiongnu, even to suggest such defeat demonstrates the ineffectiveness of Chinese frontier defense structure.
 
Thats how a battle described by historian Si maqian as even famous ancient generals cant match Liling's deeds is mispresented by this "Western made" "history documentary", and indeed history itself is actually distorted by later interpreter.
 
again, history is just like a bitch whoever got the money can have a go with her. The documentary was a cheap one.


Edited by The Charioteer - 06-Apr-2008 at 12:19
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 08:01
I had actually intended to watch that, doesn't sound like I missed much...
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 06:56
^They could have picked a better example. There are Chinese defeats against the HxiongNu(look at LiuBang), but general LiLing was usually praised to have fought valiantly(that is, until he ran out of arrows and crossbow bolts) in the face of certain defeat.
 
A question though, where did you get the info that 10,000 of the XiongNu became casualties from the battle. I couldn't find it. LiLing did last a lot longer than he should have, as in the case that he DID run out of ammunition, but I don't recall there ever being a casualty list written down.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by Omnipotence

There are Chinese defeats against the HxiongNu(look at LiuBang), but general LiLing was usually praised to have fought valiantly(that is, until he ran out of arrows and crossbow bolts) in the face of certain defeat.
 
Liubang was only surrounded by Xiongnu forces but not defeated. Liguangli would be better example, still that doesnt support what that documentary is trying to illustrate.
 
Originally posted by Omnipotence

A question though, where did you get the info that 10,000 of the XiongNu became casualties from the battle. I couldn't find it. LiLing did last a lot longer than he should have, as in the case that he DID run out of ammunition, but I don't recall there ever being a casualty list written down.
 
Its recorded by Si maqian's Shiji
 
"陵既至期还,而单于以兵八万围击陵军。陵军五千人,兵矢既尽,士死者过半,而所杀伤匈奴亦万余人"
http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/classic/shiji/sj109.html
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 15:51
I see. Usually I automatically translate 万余人 as "lots and lots of people". But literally it would mean "over ten thousand people". Thx.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 16:03
We appreciate your references Charioteer and Omnipotnece. However, in order to keep our sanity please translate the Chinese characters next time. I really don't know what rectangular boxes are supposed to mean.  万余人
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 16:43
Originally posted by The Charioteer

Originally posted by Omnipotence

There are Chinese defeats against the HxiongNu(look at LiuBang), but general LiLing was usually praised to have fought valiantly(that is, until he ran out of arrows and crossbow bolts) in the face of certain defeat.
 
Liubang was only surrounded by Xiongnu forces but not defeated. Liguangli would be better example, still that doesnt support what that documentary is trying to illustrate.
 
Originally posted by Omnipotence

A question though, where did you get the info that 10,000 of the XiongNu became casualties from the battle. I couldn't find it. LiLing did last a lot longer than he should have, as in the case that he DID run out of ammunition, but I don't recall there ever being a casualty list written down.
 
Its recorded by Si maqian's Shiji
 
"陵既至期还,而单于以兵八万围击陵军。陵军五千人,兵矢既尽,士死者过半,而所杀伤匈奴亦万余人"
http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/classic/shiji/sj109.html
Liubang was surrounded by Xiongnu army and got very very dangerous situation.  If Liubang did not take the urgent plan recommended by his "staff" ChenPing to "please" & "corrupt" the Xiongnu Zhenyu's wife, who made significant influence to her husband to retreat his army,  this part of history would have been re-written.    Hence, we cannot over-jump to the conclusion that Liubang was not defeated in this battle of BaiDung.  Here, I want to disclose another half story.
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 00:35
Didnt China have had the largest population in the world even during ancient times?  
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 02:44
indeed they did, but they were surrounded by Nomads whose entire male population range from 14years old to 65 years old can be mobilized as soon they are being called upon by their lord.

Edited by Siege Tower - 09-Apr-2008 at 02:44
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 03:13
Originally posted by Siege Tower

indeed they did, but they were surrounded by Nomads whose entire male population range from 14years old to 65 years old can be mobilized as soon they are being called upon by their lord.


siege tower, thank you for the reply, let me look at it in the essence of logistics, China wasnt surrounded by nomads, quite to the contrary the east was a frontier in which the Chinese didnt really have any attacks from till Japan in World War two, the south had kingdom states which really didnt post a threat towards China and were Vassals states for most of their time in earth up until the modern era, the west, were Tibet was at that time did create raids but they werent really as nomadic as the Mongolians are and  the north always was a setting point of raids and attacks from the start of the empire till the modern era hence I think it might be best to state that they arent literary surrounded, but were in constant raids.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 04:40
Originally posted by Xianpei

Liubang was surrounded by Xiongnu army and got very very dangerous situation.  If Liubang did not take the urgent plan recommended by his "staff" ChenPing to "please" & "corrupt" the Xiongnu Zhenyu's wife, who made significant influence to her husband to retreat his army,  this part of history would have been re-written.    Hence, we cannot over-jump to the conclusion that Liubang was not defeated in this battle of BaiDung.  Here, I want to disclose another half story.
 
Actually, the Shiji has no record of this,
 
"匈奴围我平城,七日而後罢去"
 
it simply says Xiongnu encircled the Chinese army at Pingcheng for seven days then they retreated. thats it.
 
the later history work the Hanshu(book of Han) has no record of such plot either,
 
"遂至平城,為匈奴所圍,七日,用陳平祕計得出"
 
"arriving at Pingcheng, the Chinese army were surrounded by Xiongnu for seven days, then they were relieved by using Chenping's stratagem."
 
Its only from later paraphrase by Yingshao(who lived during the late Eastern Han period) did someone give some "details" regarding so called "Chenping's stratagem".
 
應劭曰:「陳平使畫工圖美女,間遣人遺閼氏,云漢有美女如此,今皇帝困厄,欲獻之。閼氏畏其奪己寵,因謂單于曰:『漢天子亦有神靈,得其土地,非能有也。』於是匈奴開其一角,得突出。」
 
According to Yingshao:"Chenping sent painting of beauty to wife of Xiongnu chief, and told her that the Han emperor want to offer such beauty to the Chanyu in order to relieve himself from Xiongnu's encirclement. The Xiongnu queen was afraid that such beauty could threaten her position so she urged the Xiongnu chief to let Han emperor go, hence Xiongnu let the Chinese army go."
 
but another paraphrase noted "應氏之說出桓譚新論,蓋譚以意測之,事當然耳,非紀傳所說也"
what Yingshao says is derived from a "new theory" by Huantan(who also lived during Eastern Han period) which was surmised by himself rather than been recorded by any history works.
 
So first of all dont treat "this part" as a piece of history other than a story, because its not recorded by any legit history works, least to say making claims like  "history would be re-written" which is based on that piece of groundless "history".
 
besides to believe the Xiongnu sold its military upper hand to a woman's jealousy is just devaluating the quality of the Xiongnu chief.
 
The reality is we dont know what exactly happened, anything beyond original history records on the event are nothing but speculations, soLiubang was only surrounded(as thats what the history records say) but not defeated.(no direct evidence to suggest such)


Edited by The Charioteer - 09-Apr-2008 at 04:56
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 05:08
Originally posted by Omnipotence

I see. Usually I automatically translate 万余人 as "lots and lots of people". But literally it would mean "over ten thousand people". Thx.
 
Crossbow was noted for its effectiveness against steppe nomads during the Han period, Liling's 5,000 men were just armed with that kind of weapons and they were skilled at such, thats one major contributing factor to his outstanding military performance.
 
 
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