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The Charioteer
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Topic: Chinese Military Conduct Against Steppe Armies Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 22:49 |
Originally posted by Samart12
Perhaps, you indeed can say something by posting this long article (which BTW I already can see is very biased) to Xianpei and me. |
Right, the descendant of Li family believe in their ancestry and ethnicity or the accusation of their such action as "biased", i dont know which one is more "biased".
Originally posted by Samart12
But how about showing some respect to the other participants of the thread who don't read Chinese? |
arent we surprised that those "historians" who are feverishly propagating faulty history like blood of Li family being Xianbei (or "Tabgach") which was fabricated by the buddhist monk Falin in English forums can actually read Chinese.
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Xianpei
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Posted: 12-Mar-2008 at 03:44 |
1. You seemed to be very over-sensitive to the statement that "Tangtaixong carries Xianbei blood". This is a very simple question and statement. I do not know why it was manipulated in a far distracting way. And during the discussion, it seemed we were at the time of Chinese Cultural Revolution! We were just as if being arbitrarily and unreasoningly set up by "putting hats" on our heads.
2. Nobody is downpalying your questionable article. Sorry to say that I just felt, rather, you poised to make simple thing very complicated and took the forum ground to sell your prejudiced concepts by distorting other people's orginal view to your preset scenario .
3. My simple statement is easily rationalized, as if Lishimin's grandmother is a Xianbei lady, then Lishimin is a hybrid at least with one-fourth Xianbei blood. That is! I have never argued with you on Lishimin's nationality (of course, he is still a Chinese) or father or grand grand father race origins. I have also never argued with you the criterion(ria) on determining which race or nationality Lishimin should be. I am not discussing with you the patrilineal naming system of Chinese .... These seems to be generated by yourself.
4. But now I need to ask a question on the writter of this article you posted: Who is this Li Feng Hua? Any verification on his /her geniune role of being decensdant of Lishimin family?
As in China and overseas , there are many many people with surname Li or Lee.
Can you have any quoted link so that we can understand Li Feng Hua more?
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Temujin
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Posted: 12-Mar-2008 at 19:40 |
@charioteer: wikipedia is no source....
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 07:31 |
Originally posted by Temujin
@charioteer: wikipedia is no source.... |
IMHO, only the part regarding Jochi's alleged betrayal and Chingiskhan's alleged action against him is fairly questionable, although Wiki's introduction on this is rather consistent with what Chinese encyclopedia or information source says that i've checked.
like the mystery surrounding Jochi's antecedent, this still is worth of investigation, lets not brush it aside simply due to Wiki's supposed "discredit"
but that can not be argued the same for other points in our conversation,
especially regarding the conceptions on succession,
from your point of view regarding it
Originally posted by Temujin
i never figured out where this Jochi vs Chagatai myth came from but the youngest son gets the spoil, this is Tolui. Tolui died early so the second youngest (gdai) became great khan |
seems you are saying the youngest son would become the great khan, and thats how Ogedei became great Khan because with the death of previous youngest son Tolui, Ogedei would be the youngest therefore would become the great khan.
but the problem is that Tolui died after Ogedei became great khan, which demonstrate a fact that great khan is not inherited by the youngest son.
even using your claim that Tolui died before Ogedei became great khan, this still can not prove your point that youngest son would be great khan because as i mentioned before Chingis and also Mongke was not the youngest when they become great khan.
The succession of great khan is not really determined by whether the candidate is or not the youngest son of previous ruler.
wherever you get this information from seems conflicting with history.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 10:06 |
Originally posted by Xianpei
You seemed to be very over-sensitive to the statement that "Tangtaixong carries Xianbei blood". This is a very simple question and statement. |
People should be sensitive of the potential implication behind this racially oriented notion, especially for Chinese forumers. For WW2 Japanese were also "over-sensitive" about "Taizong carries Xianbei blood" that they utilized such to justify their invasion of China, or those ultra-nationalistic Korean claims of Tang dynasty was "Han Chinese under foreign rule" as we all have witness before on AE. So im really not the only one "over-sensitive" to such "history".dont you think?
Originally posted by Xianpei
I do not know why it was manipulated in a far distracting way. And during the discussion, it seemed we were at the time of Chinese Cultural Revolution! We were just as if being arbitrarily and unreasoningly set up by "putting hats" on our heads. |
"We", "our heads", by coincidence, both you and Samart could actually read Chinese and both you tend to speak on behalf of others other than youselves.
Originally posted by Xianpei
2. Nobody is downpalying your questionable article |
"I have also read through the article, but it is about the debate on Where Lishimin's ancestor home town was."
The article isnt simply about "where Lishimin's ancestor's hometown was" as its closely associated with the question surrounding Li family's ethnic origin.You know that but somehow you failed to acknowledge this, hence "downplaying".
Originally posted by Xianpei
Sorry to say that I just felt, rather, you poised to make simple thing very complicated and took the forum ground to sell your prejudiced concepts by distorting other people's orginal view to your preset scenario |
Originally posted by Xianbei
That is! I have never argued with you on Lishimin's nationality (of course, he is still a Chinese) or father or grand grand father race origins. I have also never argued with you the criterion(ria) on determining which race or nationality Lishimin should be. |
"Perhaps, you indeed can say something by posting this long article (which BTW I already can see is very biased) to Xianpei and me. "
you do realize i was not simply answering your few simple questions
Originally posted by Xianpei
My simple statement is easily rationalized, as if Lishimin's grandmother is a Xianbei lady, then Lishimin is a hybrid at least with one-fourth Xianbei blood |
Ever since Northern Wei started its policy of "sinicization", intermarriage between the Xianbei and Han nobility was practiced in order to consolidate Xianbei rule, intermarriages werent just confined to oneway practice of Han nobility taking Xianbei wifes but also Xianbei nobility taking the daughters of Han nobility. Hence, one cant be certain of what percentage of "Chinese blood" that a Xianbei clan actually has as its already several generations by the time of Lishimin's grandmother,therefore one can not utilize Lishimin's grandmother being a member of Xianbei clan to sustain the arguement "one-fourth Xianbei blood", and one can not use the paternal side to define his grandmother as "Xianbei" while at the same time not use the same to define Lishimin.
Family names are patrilineal, just like Y-chromosomes which are passed from male ancestor to male descendants without change over time. modern genetic studies suggest early migrations of "non-nomadic" population from Northern and Southern China had considerable genetic impact on "nomadic" population of north east, Y-chromosome genetic makeup of the Xianbei is likely multi-origined like many of the northern "nomadic" ethnic groups tend to be or vice versa.
Hence the claim of "one-fourth Xianbei blood" is not really "rationalized", rather its a weak yet simple characterization.
Originally posted by Xianpei
I am not discussing with you the patrilineal naming system of Chinese .... These seems to be generated by yourself. |
The Chinese family names including Li family were "generated" long before i was born.
Originally posted by Xianpei
But now I need to ask a question on the writter of this article you posted: Who is this Li Feng Hua? Any verification on his /her geniune role of being decensdant of Lishimin family? As in China and overseas , there are many many people with surname Li or Lee. Can you have any quoted link so that we can understand Li Feng Hua more? |
as matter of fact i do,you can contact Li family for confirmation and further assistance on this issue 陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会 联系地址:甘肃省临洮县北大街13号 邮编:730500 会 长:李尚德 电话:0932-2231257 0932-3311455 联系人:李瑞麟 电话:0932-2242434 0932-3309408 余尚谋 电话:13993202625
Edited by The Charioteer - 13-Mar-2008 at 10:14
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Xianpei
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 11:15 |
Charioteer,
Come on, be open minded! I believe the Chinese people are constantly assimilating every day. Chinese is a respectful and one of the great human races. But one cannot be as too nervous as you have been when finding a historical simple fact that Lishimin carries Xianbei blood. Does this hurt the self image of being a Chinese? I really do not think so. This is nothing ashamed to accepting this. No need to deny it.
Again, I feel confused by your distracting way of discussion. It would be tough for me to dig out your main points... and somehow, I found you misunderstand my view (yes, deliberately), and set me up again.
I believe Timujin asks you about why there is nothing can be found about Li Feng Hua in the wikipedia; and I also believe you just acted to misunderstand what Timujin's above question. Don't be panic, if I unveiled your tricks. (why, if you were as logic and reason as you behaved, you should not have answered in that way.)
I can give you thousands of Li and Lee 's telephone names and village address in China... but what is for? I have also asked some of my friends who are all Lee's and Li's. Nobody knows and hears about Li Feng Hua nor the names and telephones you cited here. If Li FengHua's article is so recognizable and important (especially for you!!), how comes there is no public sources or news or recognizable journal records....?
If this "Li-family" speakers were serious about this propaganda, why there is no official web site....? You sound to be the defender and one of propaganda of this Lishimin family, you should provide the "recognised verified source", insteads , you just asked me to go to contact some telephones and names you provided....? I do not think it is the right approach for you, who seemed to be "veteran" in this field, to do so.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 13:55 |
Originally posted by Xianpei
Come on, be open minded! I believe the Chinese people are constantly assimilating every day. Chinese is a respectful and one of the great human races. But one cannot be as too nervous as you have been when finding a historical simple fact that Lishimin carries Xianbei blood. Does this hurt the self image of being a Chinese? I really do not think so. This is nothing ashamed to accepting this. No need to deny it. |
these are vague and irrelevant responses to my point-to-point arguments.
Originally posted by Xianpei
I believe Timujin asks you about why there is nothing can be found about Li Feng Hua in the wikipedia; and I also believe you just acted to misunderstand what Timujin's above question. Don't be panic, if I unveiled your tricks. (why, if you were as logic and reason as you behaved, you should not have answered in that way.)
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its quite obvious Temujin didnt ask me about "why there is nothing can be found about Li Feng Hua" when he said "@Charioteer, wikipedia is no source". im not really interested to "unveil your tricks", but i do think you are confused about this one, really, wrong accusation and "wrong hat".
Originally posted by Xianpei
I can give you thousands of Li and Lee 's telephone names and village address in China... but what is for? I have also asked some of my friends who are all Lee's and Li's. Nobody knows and hears about Li Feng Hua nor the names and telephones you cited here. If Li FengHua's article is so recognizable and important (especially for you!!), how comes there is no public sources or news or recognizable journal records |
I recall you said you can read Chinese right? so you think "陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会"(Li family research association) = "I can give you thousands of Li and Lee 's telephone names and village address in China",
Originally posted by Xianpei
If this "Li-family" speakers were serious about this propaganda, why there is no official web site....? You sound to be the defender and one of propaganda of this Lishimin family, you should provide the "recognised verified source", insteads , you just asked me to go to contact some telephones and names you provided....? I do not think it is the right approach for you, who seemed to be "veteran" in this field, to do so. |
i have already provided you a way to find out whether its genuine or not.if you are "serious" about this "propaganda", why lack the interest and sincerity to investigate?
http://www.0932lt.com/difang/lswh/200712/620.html
official website of Lintao(ancestral hometown of Li family) information and articles regarding the Li family are contributed by "Li family research association" on behalf of the Li family.
the "contact infor "of "Li family research association" on the webpage is same to the contact infor i've given
陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会 联系信箱:lishiwenhualt@sina.com 联系地址:甘肃省临洮县北大街13号 邮编:730500 会 长:李尚德 电话:0932-2231257 0932-3311455 秘书长:李瑞麟 电话:0932-2242434 0932-3309408 副秘书长: 余尚谋 电话:13993202625
so make a contact for confirmation
Edited by The Charioteer - 13-Mar-2008 at 13:56
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Xianpei
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 14:31 |
Charioteer,
First, I found it is difficult for me to respond to some point to point
discussion, as I mentioned that somehow, it was tough for me to really
grasp your centre point idea. partly due to my original views are
distorted.
So, I may and will respond to yours overally.
OK, I now just focus on Li Feng Hua, the author of that article, again,
any publicly RECOGNIZABLE and VERIFIED background information on this
gentleman or Lady?
Also, I want to tell you that in my location, there are thousand of
this kind of Ethinity Associations, Lee (Li), Chan (Chen), Wong
(Huang), Wang, Ho (He).............., and somhow it is not just by
family names, but by original locations as well... . I believe
there are also many in overseas like the USA, European countries, South
East Asian countries, where there are quite a lot of Chinese living
there. Can someone just write an article claiming that
they are who whowho's descendant, but without REAL evidence that have
been verified and recognized by public authorized parties or
institutions...? And then he or she just say I am representing
this association or family club, you should listen to what I wrote.
Now, I give you my association manager names and telephone, you phone
to him to verify it.
Although we are (at least I am) amateur forum members, I do not
think some important argument making use of an questionable article
should be manipulated in a childish way and then the argument is
said to be verified?!
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 16:20 |
according to all of you, the Chinese country has been invaded many times. How come then that today China is not a bunch of different countries, and one unified super-giant?
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Dream208
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 18:16 |
Dear de Leon:
Because the conccept "China" is not built on the narrow-concept of national state, which is unfortunately to see today's Chinese government (and Chinese around the globe as well) put so much effort on boosting Nationalism but not in cultural preservation. It is an irony that from some perspectives, both Korea and Japan resemble more of cultural China in its zenith than today's China triangle area.
China, first and foremost, is (or was...) a cultural empire. You are Chinese, not because you are born with Chinese blood (if there was even such a thing), but because you behave like one (dress, language, living style, etc.) So it did not matter where the dynasty rise from, as long as it accepted Chinese cultural norms (which arguably only Mongol Yuan did not fully do so, and they got overthrown quickly), it would be considered legitimate 'Chinese" dynasty that possessed the mandate of Heaven.
In my humble opinion, it is inappropriate to use the Western nation state mindset to evaluate Chinese political, cultural and identity structure. The overheated "Chinese Nationalism" today had a lot do you May Fourth scholars vehement (or blindly) preaching of Nationalism and Western value while knowing so little about Chinese history (in our standard today). And their extremely rhetorics were used by both ROC and PRC government in order to mobilize the masses (for better, for worse, depend on your priority). But I would say one thing, the May Fourth legacy and the past 100 years' struggle had somewhat let Chinese redefined (or forgot, again depend on your perspective) what is being Chinese mean. And I think the glorious forefathers that Chinese nationalists boosting about would have very different way of defining "Chinese identity" than their rather shallow-minded modern decedents.
PS: Thank you for the pictures Charioteer. However, I do recommend you to rethink about what do our identity for being Chinese mean? Does Chinese identity had to be defined by the modern nation-state concept? Does it really only about bloodline? Does it even matter that Tang dynasty's royal family got Xianpei blood in them or not? Does our history continue merely by the preservation of so-called "pure Han blood", or is it continued by the preservation of Hua civilization which was opened and freely accessed by all for the past 4 or 3 thousands years?
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Temujin
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 18:44 |
Originally posted by The Charioteer
IMHO, only the part regarding Jochi's alleged betrayal and Chingiskhan's alleged action against him is fairly questionable, although Wiki's introduction on this is rather consistent with what Chinese encyclopedia or information source says that i've checked.
like the mystery surrounding Jochi's antecedent, this still is worth of investigation, lets not brush it aside simply due to Wiki's supposed "discredit"
but that can not be argued the same for other points in our conversation,
especially regarding the conceptions on succession,
from your point of view regarding it |
the only fact, as i can see here, is that Jochi didn't supported Jebes raid into the Rus as he was supposed to, everything else is mere speculation.
seems you are saying the youngest son would become the great khan, and thats how Ogedei became great Khan because with the death of previous youngest son Tolui, Ogedei would be the youngest therefore would become the great khan.
but the problem is that Tolui died after Ogedei became great khan, which demonstrate a fact that great khan is not inherited by the youngest son.
even using your claim that Tolui died before Ogedei became great khan, this still can not prove your point that youngest son would be great khan because as i mentioned before Chingis and also Mongke was not the youngest when they become great khan.
The succession of great khan is not really determined by whether the candidate is or not the youngest son of previous ruler.
wherever you get this information from seems conflicting with history. |
i'm only conflicting with history if the SHoM was written by a lunatic. actually, as i remember now, Tolui stepped back to gdai so you're right he became Qa'an before Tolui died but it is evident he was the first choice. and whats Chinggis Qaan got to do with it? he was in no line of sucession, so him becoming ruler of Mongols was not due to him being son of anyone but him beign a ruler personality.
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 22:00 |
Originally posted by dream208
Thank you for the pictures Charioteer. However, I do recommend you to rethink about what do our identity for being Chinese mean? Does Chinese identity had to be defined by the modern nation-state concept? Does it really only about bloodline? Does it even matter that Tang dynasty's royal family got Xianpei blood in them or not? Does our history continue merely by the preservation of so-called "pure Han blood", or is it continued by the preservation of Hua civilization which was opened and freely accessed by all for the past 4 or 3 thousands years |
I once came across an article by a Chinese author attributing the achievement of "longest continuous civilization" to the preservation of ancestor worship, "pure Han blood" is only the result of it.
P.S.
i'd like to note that stressing the tradition of respecting ones ancestor is not the same as claiming "racial purity". as Chinese family names also include historically sinicized factions.
Edited by The Charioteer - 13-Mar-2008 at 22:15
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Temujin
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 22:14 |
so do you believe the Han are racially pure or what?
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 22:39 |
Originally posted by Temujin
so do you believe the Han are racially pure or what? |
Y-Chromosome haplogroup like Q is typical of north America indian, this genetic group originated somewhere near Siberia, it seems sometime a group of Q migrated to China, its found in modern northern and southern Han population.
i think "demic diffusion" best describes the spread of Han culture and forming of Han population
Edited by The Charioteer - 14-Mar-2008 at 07:42
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 22:42 |
Originally posted by Temujin
i'm only conflicting with history if the SHoM was written by a lunatic. actually, as i remember now, Tolui stepped back to gdai so you're right he became Qa'an before Tolui died but it is evident he was the first choice. and whats Chinggis Qaan got to do with it? he was in no line of sucession, so him becoming ruler of Mongols was not due to him being son of anyone but him beign a ruler personality. |
whos first choice? i thought Chingis favored Ogedei to be his successor.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 01:09 |
Originally posted by The Charioteer
arent we surprised that those "historians" who are feverishly propagating faulty history like blood of Li family being Xianbei (or "Tabgach") which was fabricated by the buddhist monk Falin in English forums can actually read Chinese. |
I see that there is only one person that is propagating faulty theories in this thread; but it's about the "Han racial purity" ; and yes, he seems to be able to read Chinese.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 14-Mar-2008 at 01:21
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Sarmat
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Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 01:20 |
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
according to all of you, the Chinese country has been invaded many times. How come then that today China is not a bunch of different countries, and one unified super-giant? |
Good question. Actually Chinese history always goes in cycles from the unification to the division and again and again. The unified super giant as it's now was effectively recreated only in 1949 when the communists took over. Gomindang government which had ruled the country before never effectively controlled all the country, large parts of which were controlled by local warlords. But even now China is not complitely unified. I mean Taiwan.
The best way to comment on this, I suppose, would be to give the famous quote from the first chapter of the great Chinese Classics i.e. the Novel of Three Kingdoms.
"The world under heaven (China), after a long period of division, tends to unite; after a long period of union, tends to divide. This has been so since antiquity."
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The Charioteer
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Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 07:03 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Originally posted by The Charioteer
arent we surprised that those "historians" who are feverishly propagating faulty history like blood of Li family being Xianbei (or "Tabgach") which was fabricated by the buddhist monk Falin in English forums can actually read Chinese. |
I see that there is only one person that is propagating faulty theories in this thread; but it's about the "Han racial purity" ; and yes, he seems to be able to read Chinese. |
you skip what i say
Originally posted by The Charioteer
i'd like to note that stressing the tradition of respecting ones ancestor is not the same as claiming "racial purity". as Chinese family names also include historically sinicized factions. |
Originally posted by The Charioteer
Y-Chromosome haplogroup like Q is typical of north America indian, this genetic group originated somewhere near Siberia, it seems sometime a group of Q migrated to China, its found in modern northern and southern Han population.
i think "demic diffusion" best describes the spread of Han culture and forming of Han population
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i suppose your knowledge on genetics is just as shallow, when i ackowledge things like haplotye 02 are part of Han population's Y-chromosome genetic makeup, and when i say
Originally posted by The Charioteer
modern genetic studies suggest early migrations of "non-nomadic" population from Northern and Southern China had considerable genetic impact on "nomadic" population of north east, Y-chromosome genetic makeup of the Xianbei is likely multi-origined like many of the northern "nomadic" ethnic groups tend to be or vice versa |
"vice versa" is referring to the influence of migration from north on China, such as Xianbei's assimilation into China.
so, making blatant accusations arent going to earn any credit for you as a moderator.
Edited by The Charioteer - 14-Mar-2008 at 07:41
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Sarmat
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Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 14:45 |
Originally posted by The Charioteer
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Originally posted by The Charioteer
arent we surprised that those "historians" who are feverishly propagating faulty history like blood of Li family being Xianbei (or "Tabgach") which was fabricated by the buddhist monk Falin in English forums can actually read Chinese. |
I see that there is only one person that is propagating faulty theories in this thread; but it's about the "Han racial purity" ; and yes, he seems to be able to read Chinese. |
you skip what i say
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I didn't want to comment on the nonsense. Those historians don't participate in this thread and, besides, most of them know Chinese,
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Omnipotence
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Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 02:06 |
He's not even talking about ethnic purity, but that China cannot be defined through ethnicity. If blacks in America can be counted as American, why can't non-Hans be counted as Chinese? Han is only the major ethnicity, not THE ethnicity. The accusations is a bit unfair. You'r e accusing him for things he didn't say.
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