Originally posted by Siege Tower
you are absolutely right |
The claim that "Lishimin's mother was Xianbei" is not "absolutely right",
"太宗文武大圣大广孝皇帝讳世民,高祖第二子也。母曰太穆顺圣皇后窦氏"
http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/oldtangsu/jts_002.htm
Lishimin's mother was from the Chinese Dou clan, not a Xianbei clan, and how did she become "Turkic"?
Originally posted by Siege Tower
what we are discussing here is whether Li shimin" kindness toward turk generals was due to his origin, which according to Sarmat, was Tobagach. |
旧唐书(The former book of Tang)
本纪第一
高祖(Li Yuan)
"贞观八年三月甲戌,高祖宴西突厥使者于两仪殿,顾谓长孙无忌曰:当今蛮夷率服,古未尝有。无忌上千万岁寿。高祖大悦,以酒赐太宗。太宗又奉觞上寿,流涕而言曰:百姓获安,四夷咸附,皆奉遵圣旨,岂臣之力!于是太宗与文德皇后互进御膳,并上服御衣物,一同家人常礼。是岁,阅武于城西,高祖亲自临视,劳将士而还。置酒于未央宫,三品已上咸侍。高祖命突厥颉利可汗起舞,又遣南越酋长冯智戴咏诗,既而笑曰:胡、越一家,自古未之有也。太宗奉觞上寿曰:臣早蒙慈训,教以文道;爰从义旗,平定京邑。重以薛举、武周、世充、建德,皆上禀睿算,幸而克定。三数年间,混一区宇。天慈崇宠,遂蒙重任。今上天垂祐,时和岁阜,被发左衽,并为臣妾。此岂臣智力,皆由上禀圣算。高祖大悦,群臣皆呼万岁,极夜方罢。"
1-Both Li Yuan and Lishimin used the word "Man yi"or "yi"(often translated in English as "barbarian", but more comprehensive interpretation would be "non-Chinese") to refer Turks.
2-In Lishimin's own language, Southern Yue chief was referred to as "hair unknotted", while Turk chief was referred to as"clothes left-lapeled",
having hair knotted and having clothes right-lapeled are ancient Han Chinese customs,
clearly, Lishimin regarded himself as Chinese, while the Southern Yue and Turk were regarded as "non-Chinese".
旧唐书
本纪第二
太宗上(Taizong Lishimin)
"七年秋,突厥颉利、突利二可汗自原州入寇,侵扰关中。有说高祖云:只为府藏子女在京师,故突厥来,若烧却长安而不都,则胡寇自止。高祖乃遣中书侍郎宇文士及行山南可居之地,即欲移都。萧瑀等皆以为非,然终不敢犯颜正谏。太宗独曰:霍去病,汉廷之将帅耳,犹且志灭匈奴。臣忝备籓维,尚使胡尘不息,遂令陛下议欲迁都,此臣之责也。幸乞听臣一申微效,取彼颉利。若一两年间不系其颈,徐建移都之策,臣当不敢复言。 "
Li Yuan once wanted to relocate the capital when the Turks threatened the security of Tang regime, some officials werent in favor of the decision but were afraid to speak out, its Lishimin who spoke out and strongly urged his father not to move, he compared general Huoqubing of Han dynasty(who defeat the Xiongnu) with himself,
"even a general of Han court fulfiled the ambition of eliminating the Xiongnu, as the royal personage who have the responsibility for defense, its my fault to see your majesty wanting to move the capital because the threat of the Hu(Turks) has not been eliminated yet."
"甲戌,突厥颉利、突利寇泾州。乙亥,突厥进寇武功,京师戒严。丙子,立妃长孙氏为皇后。己卯,突厥寇高陵。辛巳,行军总管尉迟敬德与突厥战于泾阳,大破之,斩首千余级。癸未,突厥颉利至于渭水便桥之北,遣其酋帅执失思力入朝为觇,自张形势,太宗命囚之。亲出玄武门,驰六骑幸渭水上,与颉利隔津而语,责以负约。俄而众军继至,颉利见军容既盛,又知思力就拘,由是大惧,遂请和,诏许焉。即日还宫。乙酉,又幸便桥,与颉利刑白马设盟,突厥引退。九月丙戌,颉利献马三千匹、羊万口,帝不受,令颉利归所掠中国户口。丁未,引诸卫骑兵统将等习射于显德殿庭,谓将军已下曰:自古突厥与中国更有盛衰。若轩辕善用五兵,即能北逐獯鬻;周宣驱驰方、召,亦能制胜太原。至汉、晋之君,逮于隋代,不使兵士素习干戈,突厥来侵,莫能抗御,致遗中国生民涂炭于寇手。我今不使汝等穿池筑苑,造诸淫费,农民恣令逸乐,兵士唯习弓马,庶使汝斗战,亦望汝前无横敌。"
As i mentioned before "the Turks approached the vicinity of Tang capital with 200,000 men and posed threat to Tang dynasty in 627AD when Lishimin just enthroned as the new emperor",
just after the incident Lishimin gathered his generals and told them
"From ancient times, Tujue and China have ups and downs, for instance Xuan Yuan(the yellow emperor) was able to repel the Xun yu(predecessor of Xiongnu); King Xuan of Zhou dynasty was also able to achieve victory(against Xian Yun, another name for Xun yu). Until the reign of Han, Jin and Sui, neglect of military discipline contributed to poor defense in the face of Tujue's aggression, which caused the people of China suffer at hands of the invaders.
These days i prohibit you to indulge in leisure and luxury, the peasants are content, soldiers practice shooting and equestrian skills, making you good at fighting, so no enemy would stand in your way."
旧唐书(The former book of Tang)
列传第十七
李靖(General Lijing)
"四年,靖进击定襄,破之,获隋齐王暕之子杨正道及炀帝萧后,送于京师,可汗仅以身遁。以功进封代国公,赐物六百段及名马、宝器焉。太宗尝谓曰:昔李陵提步卒五千,不免身降匈奴,尚得书名竹帛。卿以三千轻骑深入虏庭,克复定襄,威振北狄,古今所未有,足报往年渭水之役。"
Taizong commended general Lijing when he won initial victory in Tang's counter offensive against the Turks in 630AD,
"General Liling once commanded 5000 infantry, despite he surrendered to Xiongnu he is still praised. You despite led only 3000 light cavalry and deep into enemy territory still managed victory,shattering the north,an achievement that is unprecedented and enough to avenge the battle of Wei river."
*Liling: general of Western Han dynasty,who managed to fight 80,000 Xiongnu cavalry led by its chief with only 5000 infantry,despite only few hundreds of his men survived and made their way back to Han territory, despite Liling himself was forced to surrender to Xiongnu, he still caused Xiongnu to suffer 10,000 casualties. Emperor Han wudi along with many court officials denounced Liling's surrender and punished his family.Only the author of Shiji(Records of the Grand Historian)Si maqian applauded Liling's military performance, that "even the famous generals of the past cant match"
*Battle of Wei river:The Turk approached vicinity of Tang capital and threatened China with 200,000 men in 627AD, at which time Taizong just enthroned. Hence Lishimin was forced to meet Turk chief in person and with only 6 companion of officials by his side to buy time for Tang army to deploy.The Turks saw no opportunity and "made peace" with Taizong. Taizong ever regarded the incident as "shame".
"太宗初闻靖破颉利,大悦,谓侍臣曰:朕闻主忧臣辱,主辱臣死。往者国家草创,太上皇以百姓之故,称臣于突厥,朕未尝不痛心疾首,志灭匈奴,坐不安席,食不甘味。今者暂动偏师,无往不捷,单于款塞,耻其雪乎!"
When Taizong got the message that Lijing finally defeated the Turks, Taizong was extremely pleased, he told his court "I hear that the subject should feel ashamed if the master is in anxiety, the subject would rather kill himself if the master is insulted. For the sake of the people, The Grand Emperor was forced to submit to the Turks, i ever felt bitter about it, rest fitfully and eat without relish as i swore to eliminate the Xiongnu. Today the victory is achieved without strenuous effort,Chanyu(chief of Xiongnu) is now submited, the insult is avenged!"
http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/oldtangsu/jts_071.htm
From the records of Jiu Tangshu(former book of Tang), Its quite obvious how Li Yuan and Lishimin regarded themselves, and how they regarded the Turks prior to General Lijing's campaign against the Turks(or the defeat of Turks).
Edited by The Charioteer - 31-Mar-2008 at 14:59