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Chinese Military Conduct Against Steppe Armies

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinese Military Conduct Against Steppe Armies
    Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 00:55
whether or not Xianbei were sinicized is not the case here, i knew that Tang taizong himself was an expert in Confucianism, taoism, Chinese calligraphy, and painting. No matter what his origin maybe, there is no doubt that he is 100% sinicized.   
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 04:02
Yes, it is the case. Manzhus emperors Kangxi and Qianlong's knowledge of Chinese classics was impressive their role in promotion Chinese classical arts and culture was enormous, yet they were Manzhus.
The point is not how well Taizong knew Chinese culture, the point is how he treated nomades and how they treated him.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 05:41
well, the policy of "using nomads against nomads" had been around since beginning of the Chinese civilization, and Hu generals had made significant contributions in Han's war against Xiongnu. Tang taizong being an expert on Chinese history, must have recognized the importance of the relationship between Han and minority Hu tribes when fighting against a stronger turk empire.

We can also observe something from his military tactics,  Taizong was a master at using light speed calvaries which i believe he learned it from the turks.His well trained light armored calvaries were proven to be extremely deadly in the battle, and who do you think would be better at leading such an army?han or hu? 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 06:23
Again, just using "nomades against nomades" is not enough to characterize Taizong. He was extemely popular among nomades. That's what I mean.
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Your posts are full of logical flaws.
 
First of all tell me how the descendants of Li family can decide what Li Shimin thought of himself?  It's simply impossible. Imagine that you grandchildren go to to Brazil and after several generations they are complitely Brazilian. And then they give concent on how their ancestors should be called?
 
What this kind of consent had actually to do with the real views of Li Shimin? They can never verify what he thought 1000 years ago. I'm not saying that he definetely thought like I view it. But you are obsessed with that Li family and their consent is the only valid 100% evidence and absolute proof that you're right.
 
Don't u understand again that they simply might be not Li family - 1 and they don't know anything about the views of the distant ancestor Li Shimin - 2. You want me to verify their claims? How do you suppose me to do it? To go there perform a genetic research on them etc? Or what should I send a fax to them with the question please confirm that you are indeed descendant of Li Shimin?  All these are unrealistic.
 
I also can claim that I'm descendant of Li Shimin and I consider myself a Turk, I'll give you my fax and telephone number and it's up to you to prove that I'm wrong. Go ahead!
 
All you extremely weak and logically flawed argumentation goes around this "mythical Li family consent."
 
In other words, you proved nothing by posting in this thread.
 
Though I must thank you for the beautiful images from new Chinese movies the views were great! Many thanks.
 
Sarmat12,  yes, very very good points! Clap
 
Actually, Charioteer admits in the above earlier message that he browsed some unrecognized web sites and come across to that Lifenghua article and took it as "authoritative" evidence. 
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by The Charioteer

Originally posted by Xianpei

Siege Tower,
Yes, I totally agree to you.  And I had also indicated that to Charioteer in earlier frustrating  communication and also would like him or her to be open minded to see this fact.....   however, Charioteer seemed to treat other people as his/her "enemy", if oneself does not buy Charioteer's idea....

Is that the reason why you wouldnt dare to contact "Li family research association" and consult with the descendants of Li clan regarding the "ethnic controversy" around Lishimin and Tang ruling household, because they do not buy my idea that the Li clan has always been Chinese?

Do not tell me Lishimin and his family regarded themselves as descendants of the founder of Daoism Laozi was also buying my idea.
Do not tell me Laozi is regarded as Chinese is also buying my idea.

Just like do not tell me when you assumed things like

Originally posted by Xianpei

I believe Timujin asks you about why there is nothing can be found about Li Feng Hua in the wikipedia;  and I also believe you just acted to misunderstand what Timujin's above question.    Don't be panic, if I unveiled your tricks.  (why, if you were as logic and reason as you behaved, you should not have answered in that way.)

was also making valid assessment on me or my arguments.

perhaps instead of point to point argument the only thing you could ever able to come back in our conversation is indeed "putting hats".

 
1. Is this Li family research association legal, publicly recognized and properly registered?  Your confimation with verified proofs is essential.
2. I assume there is no relationship associated between you and this "association"; as I trust you that you just browsed some internets and found this article in an unrecognized website.  
3. This is not my duties to verify the peoples you mentioned.  Rather , it is your task to put forward the proof to support what you said.
4.  Do NOT always put the "racist" hat to other peoples who point out your flaws in your arguments/ statements.  The hat is too big!
5. Again and again, in your ongoing messages , it is seen that you also belive Lishimin carries some Xianbei blood.   So, what things you wanted to argue with me?
It is great to see Chinese assimilates together.  Why did we put a special eye glass to look into Lishimin case?
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 15:00
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Again, just using "nomades against nomades" is not enough to characterize Taizong. He was extemely popular among nomades. That's what I mean.


Taizong was indeed very popular among the nomads, but that came after he defeated the turk empire. the fall of the turk empire give rise to many other nomad nations such as Tufan and Huihu, Taizong also ensured Tang's alliance with these nomad nations through marriage, and these nations would in turn provide mercenaries for Tang's expansion in the steppe and middle east. According to Jiu Tangshu, after the defeat of the Turk empire, the nomads started to refer tp Taizong as the Khan of heaven.
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 15:38
Yes, it is the case. Manzhus emperors Kangxi and Qianlong's knowledge of Chinese classics was impressive their role in promotion Chinese classical arts and culture was enormous, yet they were Manzhus.
I don't know why modern people put so much emphasis on ethnicity in China. They were Manchu's, so what? The QianLong emperor himself described him as the father of both the Han AND the Manchus in his imperial edict. All that matters is the Mandate of Heaven. Ironic, how people today label things as Chinese or non-Chinese by ethnicity(which to me is also kind of racy/predjudiced), when such a thing clearly did not matter the slightest to people back then. Personally I think modern politics have much to do with it.
 
He was extemely popular among nomades.
 
Certain nomads, yes. But definitely not all nomads. Just because he cared about some Turkish generals doesn't mean he didn't massacre other nomadic tribes who surrendered(as in the Kogureyo campaign, if I remember right). Anyway, the point is that I find it hard to find even one Chinese ruler who would label ALL nomads/sedentary people in the completely good or completely bad spectrum. Besides, that would also become a extreme political hindrance. What matters would be usefulness. Ever since the Warring states it wasn't ethnicity but usefulness(or personal connections/corruption) that got you into the court, so we can see people from Qi working for Wu, and people from Wu working for Chu, etc...


Edited by Omnipotence - 21-Mar-2008 at 15:45
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:06

Originally posted by Sarmat12

That's why I think we can logically assume that Xianbi/Nomadic element in Beizhou was much more obvious than for example Manzhu element in Qing


One can not rewrite history by logical assumption.

Thats why the reality is just contrary to what you assume, in the case of the degree of sinicization that the Xianbei of Northern Zhou underwent compared to the Manchus of Qing dynasty is just contrary to what your "logic" assume.

And here is an interesting thing to mention, although Northern Zhou's ruling household was Xianbei clan Yuwen, their policy was encouraging sinicization, rather it was Northern Zhou's competing rival state Northern Qi encouraged Xianbei elements, but it was ruled by a Chinese clan, Gao.

Northern Qi eventually was outran and eliminated by Northern Zhou because what the Gao clan was doing wasnt appealing and successful compared to what Northern Zhou was doing.

Since the Chinese Gao clan of Northern Qi favored Xianbei way more than the Xianbei clan Yuwen of Northern Zhou did, can one assume by logic that the behaviour of Gao clan was also attributed to their "blood" factor?

If the "blood" factor played such role, why the "pure" Xianbei clan Yuwen of Beizhou was no more obsessed with Xianbei way than the Chinese clan Gao of Northern Qi ever did? Rather it was just contrary.

I hope the fact Gao clan of Beiqi favored the way of Xianbei while Beizhou acutally encouraged "sinicization" would not be utilized by one as an "evidence" to argue that the Gao clan of Northern Qi state were "mixed distinctive ethnicity" different from the rest of Chinese simply because their behaviour couldbe deemed and interpreted as "non-Chinese".

keep assuming history



Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Mar-2008 at 16:07
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:10
I gave the example of these Manzhu emperors to show that they were very sinicized, yet they regarded themselves as Manzhu.
 
Secondly, again Taizong's popularity among nomades was unique in Chinese history. Many Turks were eager to fight and die under his banners voluntary. This was never the case with Han and other Chinese dynasties in their interactions with Nomadic world. When Taizong could pass for the "Heavenly Khan," never this would be the case with Han Wudi for example.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:13
Originally posted by The Charioteer


One can not rewrite history by logical assumption.

Thats why the reality is just contrary to what you assume, in the case of the degree of sinicization that the Xianbei of Northern Zhou underwent compared to the Manchus of Qing dynasty is just contrary to what your "logic" assume.

And here is an interesting thing to mention, although Northern Zhou's ruling household was Xianbei clan Yuwen, their policy was encouraging sinicization, rather it was Northern Zhou's competing rival state Northern Qi encouraged Xianbei elements, but it was ruled by a Chinese clan, Gao.

Northern Qi eventually was outran and eliminated by Northern Zhou because what the Gao clan was doing wasnt appealing and successful compared to what Northern Zhou was doing.

Since the Chinese Gao clan of Northern Qi favored Xianbei way more than the Xianbei clan Yuwen of Northern Zhou did, can one assume by logic that the behaviour of Gao clan was also attributed to their "blood" factor?

If the "blood" factor played such role, why the "pure" Xianbei clan Yuwen of Beizhou was no more obsessed with Xianbei way than the Chinese clan Gao of Northern Qi ever did? Rather it was just contrary.

I hope the fact Gao clan of Beiqi favored the way of Xianbei while Beizhou acutally encouraged "sinicization" would not be utilized by one as an "evidence" to argue that the Gao clan of Northern Qi state were "mixed distinctive ethnicity" different from the rest of Chinese simply because their behaviour couldbe deemed and interpreted as "non-Chinese".

keep assuming history

 
Bizzarre rascist assumptions are made by you. I make only conclusions based on the facts.
 
Keep entertaining us.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 18:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Bizzarre rascist assumptions are made by you
 
if you gonna quote that input of mine and accuse it of anything, at least elaborate
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I make only conclusions based on the facts
 
your "conclusion" are contrary to facts, because you assume things by your twisted "logic" but with less regard to reality, thats why you would  rip the right of Li family's own perspective on how to regard themselves. your steppe culture mentality overwhelms your sensibility.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Keep entertaining us
 
your behaviour are simply not consistent and proper for a moderator who should hold a balanced view, you should learn from Poirot, whos balance has allowed different opinions such as all those ultra nationalistic Korean claims on Chinese history to exist, without simply accusing them blatantly of anything.
 
one never saw this kind of attitude from him. Learn
 
you need to calm down, and get out of AE's little circle, for instance check the history and culture website of Lintao, see what the "Li family research association" say about Li family.
 
go on prove that such source is not more publicly authorized than you, and prove the fact that Li family have always regarded themselves as Chinese, and they have always regarded the founder of Daoism Laozi as their ancestor, and indeed prove that tracing ones ancestry by Chinese family name which is patrilineal in nature and honoring ones ancestors are "racist assumptions".


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Mar-2008 at 18:24
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 18:49
You are not the one to teach me how I should behave. If you are not satsified with my character file the complaint with the administrative leadership of the forum, but please do not give me "advice."
 
The one who should learn that there could be other interpretations of history other than you think are the only right ones is you.
 
Your racial bias and complex of superiority was already noticed on this forum and you already recieved a warning for this which was issued not by me (NB) but other moderator.
 
I'm not going to check your fake sources telling the fairytales about the direct ancestry line from Laozi to Lifenghua with the Tang Taizong in the middle. You can believe this (IMHO)crap  and it's your honorable right.
 
Instead I'll better spend some time on interesting discussion with other members who are not obsessed with proving that everyone somehow significant in Chinese history was 100% Han, but rather are here to discuss history.
 
Thank you
 
 
 
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 19:43
calm down people, let's not get started in here
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 20:28
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Your racial bias and complex of superiority was already noticed on this forum and you already recieved a warning for this which was issued not by me (NB) but other moderator
 
prove my warning was related to what you accuse of, or you are distorting the incident.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I'm not going to check your fake sources telling the fairytales about the direct ancestry line from Laozi to Lifenghua with the Tang Taizong in the middle. You can believe this (IMHO)crap  and it's your honorable right
 
sure, anything which do not fit into your steppe culture mentality are  "fake sources" and fairytales.
and without checking them out you have no right to call them "fake sources".
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Instead I'll better spend some time on interesting discussion with other members who are not obsessed with proving that everyone somehow significant in Chinese history was 100% Han, but rather are here to discuss history.
 
I dont recall i ever tried to argue emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei, or Kubilai were "100% Han" who were significant in Chinese history.
 
you are the one that is obsessed.
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Mar-2008 at 20:49
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 20:30

《旧唐书》

本纪第一 高祖

高祖神尧大圣大光孝皇帝姓李氏,讳渊。其先陇西狄道人,凉武昭王暠七代孙也。暠生歆。歆生重耳,仕魏为弘农太守。重耳生熙,为金门镇将,领豪杰镇武川,因家焉。仪凤中,追尊宣皇帝。熙生天锡,仕魏为幢主。大统中,赠司空。仪凤中,追尊光皇帝。皇祖讳虎,后魏左仆射,封陇西郡公,与周文帝及太保李弼、大司马独孤信等以功参佐命,当时称为八柱国家,仍赐姓大野氏。周受禅,追封唐国公,谥曰襄。至隋文帝作相,还复本姓.

http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/oldtangsu/jts_001.htm

"Jiu Tangshu(The former book of Tang)" records the first emperor of Tang dynasty, Li Yuan belongs to Li clan of Longxi,whos the seventh descendant of Li Hao.


《晋书》

列传第五十七 凉武昭王(子士业)

武昭王讳暠,字玄盛,小字长生,陇西成纪人,姓李氏,汉前将军广之十六世孙也。广曾祖仲翔,汉初为将军,讨叛羌于素昌,素昌即狄道也,众寡不敌,死之。仲翔子伯考奔丧,因葬于狄道之东川,遂家焉,世为西州右姓。高祖雍,曾祖柔,仕晋并历位郡守。祖弇,仕张轨为武卫将军、安世亭侯。父昶,幼有令名,早卒,遗腹生玄盛。少而好学,性沈敏宽和,美器度,通涉经史,尤善文义。及长,颇习武艺,诵孙吴兵法。

http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/jinshu/jinshu_087.htm


"Jinshu(The book of Jin)" records Li Hao as the founder of Western Liang regime during "the sixteen kingdoms" period, Li Hao belongs to Li clan of Longxi, whos the sixteenth descendant of Li Guang.

《汉书》

卷五十四

李广苏建传第二十四

李广,陇西成纪人也。其先曰李信,秦时为将,逐得燕太子丹者也。广世世受射。孝文十四年,匈奴大入萧关,而广以良家子从军击胡,用善射,杀首虏多,为郎,骑常侍。数从射猎,格杀猛兽,文帝曰:惜广不逢时,令当高祖世,万户侯岂足道哉!

http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/hansu/hsu_065.htm

"Hanshu(The book of Han)" records Li Guang as general of Western Han dynasty, Li Guang belongs to Li clan of Longxi, whos the descendant of general Li Xin of Qin dynasty who captured the ruler of Yan state during Qinshihuang's "unification war of China".

Prove the history and the fact that Li family have always been regarded in Chinese history as Chinese as well they have always regarded themselves as Chinese are "racist assumptions", prove the Li family of Longxi are not "completely Chinese" rather they became some "distinctive ethnicity" as "Tabgach".

go on rewrite history with your logical assumptions.

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 22:42

Originally posted by Xianpei

Is this Li family research association legal, publicly recognized and properly registered?  Your confimation with verified proofs is essential.

its acknowledged on the history and culture website of Lintao

http://www.ltwhw.com/html/2007-11/298.shtml

"陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会...经临洮县民政局依法登记注册"

that "Li family research association" is legal and properly registered at Lintao government

besides, the official website of Li clan

http://www.lsw.cc/News/d836.aspx

" 陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会的李瑞麟秘书长找来了研究会的李尚德、杨培林正副会长,他们说:临洮的确有个叫槐树里的地方,那里就是陇西李氏的祖籍地古槐里。 ...

    在陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会有关人士的指点下,我们在公路边上找到了一个不大的石碑,上面写着古槐里几个字。它让人心头一跳,这里难道就是李广曾经的故乡吗?"

recognizes the legitimacy and authority of "Li family research association".


Originally posted by Xianpei

I assume there is no relationship associated between you and this "association"; as I trust you that you just browsed some internets and found this article in an unrecognized website

i know how to make personal contact with the author Li feng hua himself, who wrote such article on behalf of "Li family research association". i can not do that with simple random browse of the internet.I have my reliable source.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 22:57
Originally posted by Omnipotence

I don't know why modern people put so much emphasis on ethnicity in China.


china not emphasising enough on ethnicity is one of the major problems of China now and then.

didn't the Yuan dynasty made a difference between northern chinese and southern chinese? also didn't the Qing prefered northern chinese over southern?
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 15:10
Originally posted by The Charioteer

Originally posted by Xianpei

Is this Li family research association legal, publicly recognized and properly registered?  Your confimation with verified proofs is essential.

its acknowledged on the history and culture website of Lintao

http://www.ltwhw.com/html/2007-11/298.shtml

"陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会...经临洮县民政局依法登记注册"

that "Li family research association" is legal and properly registered at Lintao government

besides, the official website of Li clan

http://www.lsw.cc/News/d836.aspx

" 陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会的李瑞麟秘书长找来了研究会的李尚德、杨培林正副会长,他们说:临洮的确有个叫槐树里的地方,那里就是陇西李氏的祖籍地古槐里。 ...

    在陇西李氏祖籍临洮联谊研究会有关人士的指点下,我们在公路边上找到了一个不大的石碑,上面写着古槐里几个字。它让人心头一跳,这里难道就是李广曾经的故乡吗?"

recognizes the legitimacy and authority of "Li family research association".


Originally posted by Xianpei

I assume there is no relationship associated between you and this "association"; as I trust you that you just browsed some internets and found this article in an unrecognized website

i know how to make personal contact with the author Li feng hua himself, who wrote such article on behalf of "Li family research association". i can not do that with simple random browse of the internet.I have my reliable source.

 
The essence of my meanings are:-
You must prove to whom this Lifenghua's article has been authoritatively recognized, and accepted by some reputable public insititutions.  Only just a propaganda hard sold by you or so called Lifenghua is no use.
 
Up to now, you are not able to tell other peoples' the background of Lifenghua?
 
My advice to you: one has to take away the "narrow-minded nationalist mask" from one's face, if he or she really wants to be a qualified good historian who can have objective thinkings and jurification on historical facts.  Also, by unmasking, one will then not be a "frog sitting inside a well to see the sky."
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 18:08
Originally posted by Xianpei

The essence of my meanings are:-
You must prove to whom this Lifenghua's article has been authoritatively recognized, and accepted by some reputable public insititutions.  Only just a propaganda hard sold by you or so called Lifenghua is no use.
 
The essence of your meanings are your dismissive attitude to "Li family research asscociation" and Li feng hua's article which is wrote on behalf of the association are no more authoritative than yourself,  website like culture webpage of Lintao and Li clan's official webpage recognize the legitimacy and authority of "Li family research association", anyone who can read Chinese can verify what i say about the association from the links i've provided.
 
Originally posted by Xianpei

Up to now, you are not able to tell other peoples' the background of Lifenghua?
 
didnt you notice there is the email of "Li family research association" , i have acknowledged that Li feng hua wrote such article on behalf of "Li family research association".
The background of Li feng hua shouldbe associated with "Li family research association", dont you think?
 
if one contact "Li family research association"(dont tell me email is not a convenient and realistic way of verifying) one will find out the backgroud of Li feng hua.
 
people are subjected to their own investigation through a simple email contact.
people would find out whether its genuine or not.
 
but just for your "laziness" and reluctance, Li feng hua is vice president of "Li family research association" and hes also a descendant of Li family of Tang dynasty.
 
Originally posted by Xianpei

My advice to you: one has to take away the "narrow-minded nationalist mask" from one's face, if he or she really wants to be a qualified good historian who can have objective thinkings and jurification on historical facts.  Also, by unmasking, one will then not be a "frog sitting inside a well to see the sky."
 
thats the best the likes of you could ever do? accusing without elaboration. discrediting without evidence.
 
so what Sarmat says are "very very good points" to you, and what i say are "narrow-minded" and "playing tricks" to you, if thats not a bias.
 
unfortuntely, unlike Sarmat who got support from the likes of you, i got no support, so i assume you are right that i must be the one thats "narrow-minded".
 
and i fully admit that im "narrow-minded".


Edited by The Charioteer - 22-Mar-2008 at 18:12
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