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Were the Illyrians Greeks?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Were the Illyrians Greeks?
    Posted: 16-Feb-2008 at 15:24
It has been noticed many similitarities betwen Greeks and Illyrians, the persons names, the places names, the tribes names and too many other things.
Were the Illyrians same as Greeks?
or were they similar races?
Its imposible to find any inscription written in Illyrian language, everything is in Greek.
What makes an Illyrian different from a Greek?
I am not a historian, so I would be pleased knowing something elegant about this?
Thank you.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2008 at 15:49


Ok, Illyrians and Greeks were Indo-European people. That's their only similarity. They were completely different people. Later on, Illyrians were influenced by Greek culture but not much.

As for inscriptions they were tribes, they didn't have literature or an alphabet.

As for the names, it's cause ancient Greeks had the habit of hellenising foreign names. Xerxes for example was really called Khashayarsha  and Darius, Dārayavahu.

Now if you don't know Greek it will probably sound similar. I mean, Idaspis sounds Greek but it's just the change version of a Persian name.


Edited by Vorian - 16-Feb-2008 at 15:50
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2008 at 18:12
Originally posted by Vorian



Ok, Illyrians and Greeks were Indo-European people. That's their only similarity. They were completely different people. Later on, Illyrians were influenced by Greek culture but not much.

As for inscriptions they were tribes, they didn't have literature or an alphabet.

As for the names, it's cause ancient Greeks had the habit of hellenising foreign names. Xerxes for example was really called Khashayarsha  and Darius, Dārayavahu.

Now if you don't know Greek it will probably sound similar. I mean, Idaspis sounds Greek but it's just the change version of a Persian name.
 
Yes, Illyria was simply made up of bunch of non-Greek tribes. The largest of these were the Dardanoi(Dardanians).
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 18:15
Originally posted by boreans

It has been noticed many similitarities betwen Greeks and Illyrians, the persons names, the places names, the tribes names and too many other things.
Were the Illyrians same as Greeks?
or were they similar races?
Its imposible to find any inscription written in Illyrian language, everything is in Greek.
What makes an Illyrian different from a Greek?
I am not a historian, so I would be pleased knowing something elegant about this?
Thank you.


First I should say that i have only heard this theory before, by Greeks from Albania who seem to be a bit more romantic and passionate about ancient Greek theories. Personally i do not believe this and i will clarify why.

1. The Illyrians belong to a material culture called Halstat, which is different from Greek.

2. Their arrival is estimated between 1300-1000BC when they reached the borders of the Greek world. Before that the people living in Illyricum were Vucedols.

3. The ancient Greek authors give detailed information about the Illyrians. Skylax seems to deal with their tribes giving a possible ethnic characterization to them as "Illyrians". The Greek cities in Illyricum are characterized as "Hellenic" while the neighbouring Illyrian tribes are labeled "Illyrian".

4. The reason why you find Greek inscriptions in Illyria are because the presence of Greeks there. The places you find the inscriptions are in the previously Greek colonies. King Menounios, was the first king to print greek inscribed coines for the Greek cities of Illyria, for obvious reasons. All inscriptions in non Greek cities are late and have usually Latin text as well. The Greeks were litterate way before the appearance of Greek inscriptions in Illyria, so the delay does not signify a fast transmition of the alphabet as it was between the other Greeks. The Greek cononists of Marseille could write in Greek, so why wouldn't the Illyrians if they were Greek.

5. There are place names and some other words surviving which signify a language that does not belong in the same group of Greek. Note that translators were used between Greeks and Illyrians.

6. The ancient Greek geographers set the Hellenic border at Orichos which means that over that city there's no continious Greek population.


Edited by Flipper - 17-Feb-2008 at 18:17


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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 19:49
they have probably the same ancestor, but the Illiyrians were not Greek
I had some nice maps, but I can't find them right now, I'll post them later when I'll find time searching them again
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 22:00













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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2008 at 22:54
Originally posted by chicagogeorge





 
I got your point. Basicly you are saying that Polibius confirms the need of interpreters for Macedonians to understand Illyrians.
Nevertheless after a search in the Polybius book 28.8.9, I found that he mentions Pleuratos having knowledge in Illyrian DIALEKTOS. That means that macedonian, greek and illyrian were dialects for each other, therefore intelegible for everyone in the region. Pleuratos was need for a diplomatic hard conversation and he knew their DIALECT being illyrian.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2008 at 22:58
Originally posted by Vorian



Ok, Illyrians and Greeks . . They were completely different people.

 
I dont agree with that. Can you please bring some evidence here?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2008 at 23:01
Originally posted by Penelope

 
Yes, Illyria was simply made up of bunch of non-Greek tribes. The largest of these were the Dardanoi(Dardanians).
 
One of the Dardanian largest tribes was called CHELIDONES, the same as a greek tribe in the heart of Hellas, Peloponnesus. What do you call this?


Edited by boreans - 25-Feb-2008 at 23:02
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 07:52
Originally posted by boreans

 
One of the Dardanian largest tribes was called CHELIDONES, the same as a greek tribe in the heart of Hellas, Peloponnesus. What do you call this?


You already have plenty of evidence on this page showing they belong to a different culture. Now can you show us a reference on the Chelidones? I have never encountered a tribe named so. Besides, even if i'm missing something, Chelidones are the "snailmen".


Edited by Flipper - 26-Feb-2008 at 08:04


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 08:03
Hecateus mentions the Chelidones to be the following:

"lived on their northern borders towards the Mat or Drin valleys"

Where are they mentioned in Peloponesus?


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 18:03
i dont think the Illyrians were Greeks.Illyrians were Illyrians and Greeks were Greeks,thats why they have different names.
I dont think that they were very different from each other nither,the fact that in Albania exists cities more then 2000 years history, (Durres has 3000 Years history i think) proves the point that if they were not people of the same culture who freely interacted with each other then it would not have been posible for that culture to have been preserved there from ancient times up to the fall of the Ottoman empire.
 
Another very important factor is the presence of Albanian speaking people in Greece which have been an majority in many places in Greece untill the fall of the Ottomans and the creation of the balkan nationalism.
 
This can not be ignored.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by boreans

 
One of the Dardanian largest tribes was called CHELIDONES, the same as a greek tribe in the heart of Hellas, Peloponnesus. What do you call this?


You already have plenty of evidence on this page showing they belong to a different culture. Now can you show us a reference on the Chelidones? I have never encountered a tribe named so. Besides, even if i'm missing something, Chelidones are the "snailmen".
 
My thoughts exactly. There is ample enough evidence in this thread already proving that the Illyrians were not Greek.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 20:52
Originally posted by HEROI

i dont think the Illyrians were Greeks.Illyrians were Illyrians and Greeks were Greeks,thats why they have different names.
I dont think that they were very different from each other nither,the fact that in Albania exists cities more then 2000 years history, (Durres has 3000 Years history i think) proves the point that if they were not people of the same culture who freely interacted with each other then it would not have been posible for that culture to have been preserved there from ancient times up to the fall of the Ottoman empire.



The oldest settlements in Albania are not Illyrian however...The Illyrians brought a new culture to the area that is more similar to the Celts. The previous culture was the Vucedol.

Originally posted by HEROI


 
Another very important factor is the presence of Albanian speaking people in Greece which have been an majority in many places in Greece untill the fall of the Ottomans and the creation of the balkan nationalism.
 
This can not be ignored.


And vise versa Wink
The difference is the time periods those phenomenas occured. For the first it is Ottoman years, while the second dates back to antiquity. The timelines shouldn't be ignored eather Embarrassed


Edited by Flipper - 26-Feb-2008 at 20:54


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 21:33
we dont have any evidence to prove nither of this claims,so it remains just an matter of opinion.The fact that Illyrians felt comfortable in the culture they inhabited,which was very simmilar to Greek culture proves that they were not so different after all.
 
As for the Vucedols being there before the Illyrians,the accepted theory among historians is that before Illyrians there were the pelasgians,who may come in the names of Vucedols among others,as latter the Greeks came in the names of Spartans among others,and Illyrians in the name of epirotas among othersWink
 
I dont see how they were different,or how they could have been more different that they were under the Ottoman empire or that they are today.
 
If you know you can tell me.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 21:45
Originally posted by HEROI

As for the Vucedols being there before the Illyrians,the accepted theory among historians is that before Illyrians there were the pelasgians,who may come in the names of Vucedols among others,as latter the Greeks came in the names of Spartans among others,and Illyrians in the name of epirotas among othersWink


LOL



Heroi...get serious. Don't make me start about Pelasgians. Serbs were the Illyrians 2 centuries ago remember? Nobody except some albanians believes that.

Pelasgians never inhabited Illyria.

As for Epirotans...Have you forgot the Molossian decrees, Skylax, the Aecidae, the Greki and Selloi to start with? Maybe a new tribe of Illyrians will emerge soon from an epic discovery and they will be called the Greklirians. Dead

Heroi, i suggest you leave the hokus pocus romantic natioalism posted in Albanian forums and stick to concrete evidence. Don't make me resurect old posts about Epirus. Generally do not touch the Epirus matter. It won't end in a nice way...


Edited by Flipper - 26-Feb-2008 at 21:47


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 21:58
Maybe you would not like to call epirus Illyrian for obvious reasons,but you cant deny most of it was Albanian,and still is i am afraidEmbarrassed
So i going to acept the fact epirotans were Greeks,but in return you have to acept Greeks spoke Albanian.Hard to digest????Well my friend whoever Illyrians were i dont care,concrete evidence shows that Albanian language ,folk and traditions dominate overwelmingly in the Epiros region and as long as there is concrete historical evidence to go by,they always did.
 
Dont make me now go to the Epiros topic,cause we will go to endless debate ,not through any fault of mine i am afraid.Cool
 
The fact that a region as epiros has had both Albanians and Greeks who were almost unrecognisible in traditions,tells one that this two people could not have been very different even before.
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 22:00
As i told you things changed with the fall of the Ottomans,and the rise oif balkan nationalism.You should get out of this mentality if you want to see clearly.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 22:13
Originally posted by HEROI

Maybe you would not like to call epirus Illyrian for obvious reasons,but you cant deny most of it was Albanian,and still is i am afraidEmbarrassed


I take that as a provocation. Show me the following:

1) How the Albanians are fore sure Illyrians
2) Were do you read in ancient time that Epirotans were ALbanians?
3) What does Epiros mean in ALbanian Heroi? LOL

Originally posted by HEROI


So i going to acept the fact epirotans were Greeks,but in return you have to acept Greeks spoke Albanian.Hard to digest????


Opote katalavaineis ti sou grafo? Don't you Heroi? Or are your claims baseless? Wink Maybe you could tell me how that would be in Albanian? Boreis na metafraseis?

We can now conversate in a common language then Heroi. Lets go for it...I will post everything in ancient greek/illyrian if you want.


Originally posted by HEROI


Well my friend whoever Illyrians were i dont care,concrete evidence shows that Albanian language ,folk and traditions dominate overwelmingly in the Epiros region and as long as there is concrete historical evidence to go by,they always did.


Show me where exactly is Albanian: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main

 

Originally posted by HEROI


Dont make me now go to the Epiros topic,cause we will go to endless debate ,not through any fault of mine i am afraid.Cool
 
The fact that a region as epiros has had both Albanians and Greeks who were almost unrecognisible in traditions,tells one that this two people could not have been very different even before.
 


Oh please I can do that...don't worry. I can go through all the latest epic albanian discoveries...Kemal Ataturk the Albanian for instance LOL


Edited by Flipper - 26-Feb-2008 at 22:14


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 22:46
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by HEROI

Maybe you would not like to call epirus Illyrian for obvious reasons,but you cant deny most of it was Albanian,and still is i am afraidEmbarrassed


I take that as a provocation. Show me the following:

1) How the Albanians are fore sure Illyrians
2) Were do you read in ancient time that Epirotans were ALbanians?
3) What does Epiros mean in ALbanian Heroi? LOL
I am not talking about Illyrian times for which you can not prove nothing,and for sure we would end up in endless debate,bu i am saing Albanian,and historical evidence shows that during ottoman empire almost all Epiros was inhabited by Albanian speaking population,or dont you agree?Or dont you agree that it still remains?
in Albanian is not Epiros,but EPIRI,and it can mean different things,i dont know what it meant back then,and nither do you.Lamp

Originally posted by HEROI


So i going to acept the fact epirotans were Greeks,but in return you have to acept Greeks spoke Albanian.Hard to digest????


Opote katalavaineis ti sou grafo? Don't you Heroi? Or are your claims baseless? Wink Maybe you could tell me how that would be in Albanian? Boreis na metafraseis?

We can now conversate in a common language then Heroi. Lets go for it...I will post everything in ancient greek/illyrian if you want.
No my friend,but i can freely conversate in common language with most of people living in Epiros region today.that language is perhaps Illyrian,perhaps ancient Greek,perhaps just Albanian,but for sure it aint Greek.Evil%20Smile


Originally posted by HEROI


Well my friend whoever Illyrians were i dont care,concrete evidence shows that Albanian language ,folk and traditions dominate overwelmingly in the Epiros region and as long as there is concrete historical evidence to go by,they always did.


Show me where exactly is Albanian: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main

Albanian is today,and as i said is been from time that concrete evidence exists,such as during the Ottoman empire.Approve


Originally posted by HEROI


Dont make me now go to the Epiros topic,cause we will go to endless debate ,not through any fault of mine i am afraid.Cool
 
The fact that a region as epiros has had both Albanians and Greeks who were almost unrecognisible in traditions,tells one that this two people could not have been very different even before.
 


Oh please I can do that...don't worry. I can go through all the latest epic albanian discoveries...Kemal Ataturk the Albanian for instance LOL
That is a much more valid claim then Epiros being somehow conected with modern Greece.At leest lets not forget,that Kemal was born i Salonika,which at the time Albanians made the majority of the population.What do you think ,ehhConfused
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