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Native Americans on all empires??? |
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Ed Ziomek 
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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 Topic: Native Americans on all empires???Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:06 |
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Respectfully, we disagree. "1200 onwards"...? I am learning new things every day, can you give me a reference on this date?
"Haudenosee ("people of the longhouse" in their own language) is already known"... and I respectfully have asked before..... what piece of this name is "people", and what piece is "long house"?
How far back do you know your history? The oldest culture that I know of, that keeps written records, dates back to 800 AD (Koreans). Even the Indian cultures spoke of "crossing the Eastern ocean", or "crossing the ocean of the setting sun" - the Western ocean.
The Iroquois history I am proposing happened in the EXACT timeframe of Moses, Amenhotep IV, Seti the Navigator, Akenaten, Sekhmet, that of 1200 BC. That predates your suggested history by 2400 years, although, you may be perfectly right, and I may be perfectly wrong.
The Pequots of Mystic, Connecticut. Look up "Pekhit" on Yahoo, or "Pekhat"... refers to the exact same goddess... Sekhmet, the lion Goddess.
"Massapequa"... Warriors of the Pequots... Warriors of the Lion Goddess.
That was my first tipoff towards the Egyptians, in my research of two years ago.
Mixcoatl...If I have offended you with my theories and my research, cancel my comments. I will understand.
But these are my sincere and honest research conclusions... everyone was here thousands of years before Colombus, and the predominant naming convention is Egyptian, and the predominant theological beliefs reflect Greek and Egyptian beliefs.
Your thoughts? I will stop if you want me to stop.
Edited by Ed Ziomek - 27-May-2006 at 19:07 |
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Decebal
Arch Duke 
Digital Prometheus Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1791 |
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Posted: 27-May-2006 at 22:08 |
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Ed, there's absolutely no archeological evidence of any kind to link the Iroquios confederacy to the time period of 1200BC. For that matter, there has been no conclusive evidence for Trans-Atlantic contact before Columbus, other than the very limited contact with Vikings. As someone else has noted, the post-Columbian contact has resulted in a biological catastrophy for the American natives: don't you think that had extended contact occured, there would have been a similar catastrophe in the past as well. Your argument is that no civilization keeps records that far back (which is not true by the way, just look at the Chinese, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc.). But why is it then that there is absolutely no archeological evidence of any kind (on either side of the ocean) to support that kind of cultural diffusion, which would require extensive trade? What about the lack of any ocean-worthy vessels in the Old World at the time?
Aside from your wild theories, which you are free to believe in sme of the statementsou present as fact are quite outrageous. Saying that the Koreans are the oldest culture that keeps written records is quite mind-boggling... The predominant theological beliefs in the Americas... There are no "predominant" theological beliefs. On the contrary, there is a very wide variety of beliefs, rituals, gods, which usually have no Old World equivalent at all. Native civilizations display a huge variety of cultures which would be contrary to any diffusionist ideas. What's more, saying that they had to have borrowed their theology, rituals, concept of the world from someone else, is like saying that they were not somehow able to develop these on their own, which is not only preposterous, it is insulting to them.
Anyway, it's not that I'm getting offended: it's simply that I think you should be more skeptical and read more serious research.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Ed Ziomek
Immortal Guard
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 10:49 |
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Decebal... no wall paintings will convince you.
No naming conventions similar to the Egyptians will convince you.
No theology similarities will convince you.
No language similarities will convince you.
No mythological evidence will convince you.
No facial-cranial evidence will convince you.
No architectural evidence will convince you.
No pottery remains will convince you.
No standing-stone occurences will convince you.
No fashion-garment evidence will convince you.
No Egyptian pyramid artifact of world-trade will convince you.
No complex, color pigment manufacturing (I.e., purple dye) will convince you.
No Orion-centric city-planning will convince you.
No published author of the last 500 years will convince you.
Not even DNA evidence from the National Geographic and IBM will convince you.
Just say it. You believe the Western Hemisphere disappeared for 10,000 years. The Ice-age caveman found the western hemisphere, but then it just...disappeared!
I bet you call yourself intelligent too. I accept.
Congratulations, you are really, really smart! Sure thing! Edited by Ed Ziomek - 28-May-2006 at 10:53 |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 12:41 |
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It didn't. It was inhabited by native Americans, who were perfectly able to achive great things themselves. Why is it that there are so many theories about non-American origins for Native American cultures? Is it because of a form of racism, is it that people are not willing to believe Native American did those things themselves? Why are there only such theories for America, why are there no theories suggesting that China or Egypt were influence by Native Americans? Such theories definately won't make less sense than suggesting Native Americans were influence by China of Egypt. Besides, you still haven't explained why Native Americans weren't decimated by deseases carried by the people you believed visited the Americas before Columbus. Unless you find a solution for that problem, no theory about trans-Oceanic contact is tenable. |
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red clay
Administrator 
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 14:33 |
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In our zeal to beat up on poor old Ed's theories, lets not paint ourselves into a corner. Pre Columbian civilizations came and went, leaving only their accomplishments in stone and or modifications of the landscape as record of their existence. Pre History being what it is we don't know what caused the disappearance of these civilizations. Some vanished due to extreme drought, others just vanished. You can't rule out diseases, and you can't certainly determine sources of those diseases.[ No ones sure where the black death originated still and that was during the "historical period"]
You can't with any certainty say native populations weren't affected by diseases and to make Epidemic a criteria for trans-Oceanic contact is just as shaky as Egyptian linguistic influences on the Nahuatl language. Edited by red clay - 28-May-2006 at 14:34 |
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 17:13 |
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I think you can. If trans-oceanic contact were as frequent as Ed Ziomek suggests, surely smallpox, influenza and measles wouldn't have hit the Americas as hard as they did in the 16th century, because Native Americans would have been resistent against those deseases. Of course casual, accidental contacts between the New and the Old World are still possible, but structural contacts that give rise to whole cultures aren't. |
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Northman
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4262 |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 18:10 |
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I think this is interesting, and reading through the last part of the thread, I found it strange to find no reference to Thor Heyerdahl. I dont know if any of you know of him, but I found him on Wiki where it says:
He built the boats Ra and Ra II in order to demonstrate that Ancient Egyptians could have communicated with the Americas or transferred pyramid-building technology. The original Ra took on water and had to be abandoned; Heyerdahl thought the cause was that a supporting rope present in the ancient design was omitted in construction. On May 17, 1970 Heyerdahl set sail from Morocco on the papyrus boat Ra II to successfully cross the Atlantic Ocean to Central America. Yuri Senkevich, who was the expedition physician, later became a popular TV host in USSR and Russia.
 Link to Thor Heyerdahl on Wiki...
Just thought I would mention.
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Ponce de Leon
Caliph 
Lonce De Peon Joined: 11-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2967 |
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Posted: 28-May-2006 at 18:13 |
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Looking back at the "spanish attacks", as i would like to term it, i see that not a lot of metizos like their spanish ancestry.
Well, let me be the black sheep in this. My family as i know lives in Peru, and i believed they have intermingled with the indians. (maybe i have some Inca blood in me, i dont know) But, as i said before my family have ties to the name "Ponce de Leon" and i am very proud of that. I have to say that i am more proud of my spanish ancestry than my indian one. Not to say that i dont condone the terrible acts that the spanish conquistadors have done, nonetheless i am still proud of my spanish history. and with that note... VIVA ESPANA!!!! |
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red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 29-May-2006 at 01:21 |
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Again playing devils advocate here,
 I wonder what an Epidemiologist's opinion would be on how long it would take for a population to lose it's resistance to certain diseases, if the source for them were to be taken away. If there was contact on a large scale It likely would have happened very early and had ceased long before the viking era. On the other hand if enough time had passed the disease organisms originally brought to the Native populations could have mutated enough, on the other continents, to have overcome any resistance developed as a result of earlier contact.And an observation- Impossible is a word that can have a devastating effect on the diet of the user, a year ago no one was even thinking about the possibilities of pyramids in Bosnia let alone seeing one being excavated, and from personal experience I know there is no way to cook crow to make it palatable. Improbable is a lot easier on the taste buds.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 08:15 |
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Absolutely true!!!
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Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 08:22 |
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What stops you to learn nahuatl?
Se eso eres asi tan importante,usted deberia comienzar piensando en aprender la lengua de sus ancestrales.
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Greek Tragedy
Janissary 
Joined: 31-May-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 12:33 |
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seriously if your a proud Mexican you better be proud of all your mixtures, being Mexican is not a one race only nationality. im half Mexican and im proud of all my mixtures whether it be native, spanish, french, whoever came here and we all mixed with. but fact is your not only Native if you say your Mexican, what contribuated to you being Mexican is all those other races coming together too. and thats why your Mexican. its already enough when biracial people only want to claim one side but when a Mexican or who ever only wants to claim one linage amoung all the others, thats sad. it doesnt matter where you live in Mexico or usa, your still a mixture so be proud.
real 'Mexican culture' is spanish included. Natives, spanish etc are separte nationalities. being Mexican is a minority group not only Native. be proud of being really Mexican. and the fact that spanish is the language makes as closer to our other brothers and sisters Latin American countries because we speak the same language, if it was only Native languages which wouldnt be bad, but it will be all seperate languages.
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Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 22:39 |
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Proud? why should we? did the spaniards help our nations? no! We didnt even need their help.
did they come and tell the Mexica, Tarascans(purepcha), mayans, Mixtecs,zapotec, Totonac, and Quechua------"hay natives we would love to trade with you to benifit our nation and your nations, we would love to learn about your culture and hopefully you too would want to expirience our Spanish culture" no! they did not say that, they raped, murdered, conquered, stole and destroyed from us. They did not want tobe great trade partners or allies. So why should we embrace this nation?
Also did the Spanish let the Moors occupy Spain forever? no! the moors invaded and conquered Spain. Then the Spaniards fought back and after hundreds of years of fighting they finally ended Islam and kicked the Moors out. They recliamed and restored their nation and culture. Some Moorish influence impacted Spain but Spanish culture was restored. Our languages are beautiful and apart of us. Their is always the universal langauge called "english" to commuinicate.
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Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 14:32 |
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The best thing the Spanish gave to the Mexica, Tarascans, Mixtec, Zapotec, Totonacs, and Mayans is their Churros and chorizo. We already had schools, cities, temples, our own religions, food-"tacos, tamales", culture, hospitals, universities, palaces, farms, armies, emperors, kings, government, census, knights, weaponery, astornomers, warriors, priests, jobs, work, sports-"ulama", zoo's-"nezahualcoyotl zoo in tetezcoco", poems, songs, music. We studied science, alchemy, astronomy, math, some geography, history, language, writing, medicine, fitness and health . The only thing the Spanish had that we didnt was Sea faring ships, cannons, domesticated animals, horses, guns, and oh their delicious churros.
We werent some savages running around naked in a jungle eating eachother and killing each other with sticks and rocks. We had our nations set and ready. Just like Japan when they met the west. If they came and peacfully traded with us. For example we give them gold and silver for ships, domesticated animals, guns, cannons. Then we would hold no grudge towards the Spanish. But they wernt traders they were "conquerors" But their churros and chorizo are preety damn good.
I accept my Spanish blood or European blood, if i have any. But i dont honor it because what they did to my Tarascan people, what they did to my country Purepecherio-"Purepecha nation", and other Indigenous nations .what they did to the Mexica, zapotecs, Mixtecs, mayans, totonacs, and others. what the Spanish did was no different then Al Queda, Sadam Huessien, hitler, Osama bin laden, or what the Nazis commited. Edited by Tarascan knight - 19-Jun-2006 at 15:14 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 15:18 |
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[
I guess with new technology you people will be able to manipulate your genes so that you that you no longer look mestizo, but rather like the natives
 .That would be cool!
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Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 16:30 |
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Funny you should say that, because as much as you hate Spaniards/Europeans you're using a very European definition of etnicity. For native americans somebody who had a native american lifestyle was considered Native American. It didn't matter if you was genetically 100%, 50% or 0% Native American, as long as you shared their lifestyle you was considered native american. Gonzalo Guerrero for example, was considered as Mayan as any other Maya, although he was genetically 100% Spanish. The other way around it worked as well. If you didn't have a native american lifestyle, you were not considered native american. If you were living in a colonial city, speaking Spanish, wearing European clothes Native Americans would never have considered you Native American, even if you were genetically 100% native. In other words, for a 'true' Native American etnicity doesn't matter, only culture does. If you really want to be Native American, let's say Purpecha, you should switch your computer off, stop speaking English, dress in Purpecha clothes and move to Michoacn. That is what makes you Purpecha, not a - real or imaginary - Purpecha genetical background. If you don't want to do all this, that's fine, but then you should stop fooling yourself and don't play Native American anymore. |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 18:58 |
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U saying that NATIVE Americans are stupid and poor? and we cant use computers? because we are indigenous? So we have to live in messed up houses and not have anything to do with technology because we are Indigenous? Tell that to the Purepecha at Xiranhua.com. They have a radio station and their own web sites. I am Purepecha because my blood line, i speak Purepcha, I know my history, I identify myself as a Purepecha. U saying we are a bunch of savages? we cant be lawyers, doctors, teacher? astronomers, scientist? even though we already were those things in the past and still are Your racist Mixcoatl. So japanese are not Japanese because they are modern? because Asians are not suppose to use computers? only swing katanas around and drink sake? your wrong mixcoatl, So who has the right to use computers? and technology? So asians, africans, arabs, dont have the right to use the computer either? or any source of technology because their races arnt suppose too? Edited by Tarascan knight - 19-Jun-2006 at 19:07 |
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Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 22:04 |
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As far as i know, by my apperance i consider myself a Mestizo wanting to be an Amerindian, in heart and mostly in physical appereance, i would say im a native mexican. It would be very hard for me to say who my ancestors were, as far i know, most of my family comes from the state of San Luis Potosi and our last name is Narvaez, that is of course from Panfilo de Narvaez, the conquistador who tried to capture Cortes. I don't know about you guys, but i think an amerindian is an amerindian, no matter where u live...i just consider myself an amerindian trying to recover what was taken from him...what was taken from us. I dont think it would be very helpful to hate the Spanish for what they did to our ancestors, nor the english...after all, i think that we have a present to take care of and a bright future for our kids, but always trying to recover our past.
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Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 06:21 |
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Read my post again, I never said they were savages. I was saying that culture decides who is native, Americans, not genetics. Please adress that point. |
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Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 12:13 |
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Yea but Purepecha cant use computers because they are Indigenous? How ignorant.
I agree with oktli. But according to Mixcoatl oktli u arnt indigenous because u are using a computer and because u use technology. Because u dont live in your native village. To mixcoatl we Indigenous people arnt considered native if we use technology, Edited by Tarascan knight - 20-Jun-2006 at 12:16 |
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