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The way modern warfare is conducted

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The way modern warfare is conducted
    Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 08:05
The last 40 years has shown that low tech determined armies who import their stingers on the backs of donkeys* can effectively challenge high tech state of the art armies.
They can do this because they have better morale, better training, and a greater desire to win. When Israel fought Hezbullah many Israeli soldiers were freezing their sperm in case they were killed before going into battle against Hezbullahs forces that would happily die to defend their country. That is why Israel lost the war. Because of morale.

Just like in Vietnam, and in Afghanistan, high tech fancy armies lost to low tech armies. Therefore I do not consider networked soldiers to be a useful investment. You'll spend more time repairing the computer than you will shooting at the enemy!
This is just a way for IT companies to win defence contracts.


*Who are a part of the complex and efficient logistics network. Low tech doesn't mean disorganised.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 15-Feb-2008 at 08:06
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 09:52
You all speak of high-tech armies fighting poor low-tech armies.
How about two high-tech armies fighting?
Having your M1 tanks fighting Leopard2 tanks, your M109A6 being destroyed by PzH2000, Eurofighters fighting your F-22, European forces using Galileo system instead of GPS, and GPS being intercepted and malfuncioning? How many Apaches could survive in modern warfare, being so lightly armoured as they are?
Things wouldn't work so easily then

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 14:00
Originally posted by xristar

You all speak of high-tech armies fighting poor low-tech armies.
How about two high-tech armies fighting?
Why would they want to?
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 18:53
Why would they want to?

Sht happens

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It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2008 at 02:01
I'd say only Europe, Israel and the US have high tech armies, and they don't seem inclinded to fight each other.
 
Other nations (Russia, China etc) while they have high tech components, don't base their strategies around them.
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  Quote IDonT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2008 at 21:11
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The last 40 years has shown that low tech determined armies who import their stingers on the backs of donkeys* can effectively challenge high tech state of the art armies.
They can do this because they have better morale, better training, and a greater desire to win. When Israel fought Hezbullah many Israeli soldiers were freezing their sperm in case they were killed before going into battle against Hezbullahs forces that would happily die to defend their country. That is why Israel lost the war. Because of morale.

Just like in Vietnam, and in Afghanistan, high tech fancy armies lost to low tech armies. Therefore I do not consider networked soldiers to be a useful investment. You'll spend more time repairing the computer than you will shooting at the enemy!
This is just a way for IT companies to win defence contracts.


*Who are a part of the complex and efficient logistics network. Low tech doesn't mean disorganised.
 
1.)  Not effectively challenge.  The right world is outlast.  Low tech armies, fighting on their own backyard can generally outlast, through attrition, high tech expeditionary armies. 
 
2.)  While the Vietnamese and Afghans surely did outlast the Soviet and US armies, they never won a single battle.  That is the weakness and strengh of the low tech guerilla armies.  Currently no low tech army can prevent the movement nor deny land from a Brigade or Division size professional army of either US, Russian, Chinese, and European origin.   
 
3.)  Guerilla based armies are historically impossible to destroy because they never stood their ground and fight and are best suited for defensive campaigns of wearing down the attacker.  Their offensive strength are marginal.  They could never take an entrench position.   
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  Quote IDonT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2008 at 21:14
Originally posted by IDonT

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The last 40 years has shown that low tech determined armies who import their stingers on the backs of donkeys* can effectively challenge high tech state of the art armies.
They can do this because they have better morale, better training, and a greater desire to win. When Israel fought Hezbullah many Israeli soldiers were freezing their sperm in case they were killed before going into battle against Hezbullahs forces that would happily die to defend their country. That is why Israel lost the war. Because of morale.

Just like in Vietnam, and in Afghanistan, high tech fancy armies lost to low tech armies. Therefore I do not consider networked soldiers to be a useful investment. You'll spend more time repairing the computer than you will shooting at the enemy!
This is just a way for IT companies to win defence contracts.


*Who are a part of the complex and efficient logistics network. Low tech doesn't mean disorganised.
 
1.)  Not effectively challenge.  The right world is outlast.  Low tech armies, fighting on their own backyard can generally outlast, through attrition, high tech expeditionary armies. 
 
2.)  While the Vietnamese and Afghans surely did outlast the Soviet and US armies, they never won a single battle.  That is the weakness and strengh of the low tech guerilla armies.  Currently no low tech army can prevent the movement nor deny land from a Brigade or Division size professional army of either US, Russian, Chinese, and European origin.   They can however make their lives very unconfortable the longer they hold the territory.  They never win in the battlefield, but win in the political field.  As a military tactic, it not the best way to defend (but you play the hand that your dealt) 
 
3.)  Guerilla based armies are historically impossible to destroy because they never stood their ground and fight and are best suited for defensive campaigns of wearing down the attacker.  Their offensive strength are marginal.  They could never take an entrench position or gain ground.  The Hezbollah was playing a defensive war for their survival.  In that conflict, defined on those terms only, they "won".  However, Hezbollah could never take and hold Israeli ground from the Israeli army.  Doing so will nulify their greatest asset, despersion and stealth.   
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  Quote IDonT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2008 at 21:18
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Other nations (Russia, China etc) while they have high tech components, don't base their strategies around them.
 
Why do you say that?  The Russian Army that took Chechnya certainly was based around high technology military.  They even copied the NATO/US method of press conference to show the before and after effects of their air strikes. 
 
The PLA is in a midst of modernization.  China has 2 foreign policies: secure energy to fuel its economic growth and prevent Taiwan from independence, by force if necessary.  They are building their high tech military around a doctrine that MAY one day require them to invade Taiwan.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 20:20
Personally it frustrates me that high-tech armies such as the US, Europe and Russia (I consider them to be in this category) are developing more and more technology when it won't help them win in their current conflicts. Obviously having an edge in technology over an opponent is an advantage but any war between two high-tech armies would break both their banks.
 
The Land-warrior technology, the gun that shoots around corners and bombs that can destroy 80 tanks at once are cool, yes, but how will any of them defeat 4th generation war (different from 4th dimensional war). Russia's problems are with Chechnyan rebels, France lost a war to Algeria and Indochina, Israel almost lost the war with the Palestinians and the US has lost to Vietnam and Somalia and is now involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. I would say political will is the greater weapon in today's war, with information as its underlying principle.
 
(Currently I'm doing an independent study on guerrilla warfare/insurgencies after being very impressed with The Sling and the Stone by Thomas X Hammes, worth checking out.)
Like great battles? How about when they're animated for easy viewing?
Visit my site, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps at www.theartofbattle.com.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2010 at 15:33
The following site, might well tell you what is is like in Iraq, and maybe that other place that Obama is sending troops?

I obviously posted the wrong address!



Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 08-Jan-2010 at 16:43
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Deano97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2010 at 17:53
Its changed in the way that theirs absolutley no such thing as the low tech army any more.Almost half of ur fighting is now not done by humans.The times of 1 million soldiers meeting half a mile apart in two trenches is now over.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2010 at 20:17
It really seems that all of those children we have trained to fight via remote control on the inter-net, are ready made warriors of the 21st century! Just move the man, ship, airplane, rocket, etc., and press "shoot!"

Remote control death! Just how soon it is reality is merely a guess?

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  Quote Deano97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2010 at 19:50
But think, will that not become the warfare of our future.Will wars be conducted by using only man operated machines, and at some point or another machines not powered by man at all?How long till Robots fight on the plain of battle as every part in the military.We already have Predator Drones and Recon Robots...But will it be 100?50?even 20 years till the Computer generation is running the military?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2010 at 15:31
Actually Deano, I sometimes feel that many of those great battles that we now read about, were merely the accounts of great "chess games!", and I am not really kidding!

Chess or one of its comparable games which may well be extinct, could have easily allowed one "despot" to fight via slow mail, a war without death?

All one needed was a writer, who watched the match, and then prepared great events onto paper, or papyrus, or vellum, and left them for posterity! Ergo, then these "fictionalized" accounts were found and taken as "fact!" They (the chess battles) were then entered into "history", and especially "chronology", as "fact?"

Much the same could easily be done today with computer simulations! Why risk so much when a mere game with a "bet" is much easier for each "cousin" to accept? I use the word "cousin" because within the royal families of Europe and the surrounding area, most all rulers were related by "blood!" As they are today!!!

Seriously, just who knows?

Edited by opuslola - 13-Mar-2010 at 15:32
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  Quote p,c,ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2010 at 22:26
Im not saying that its true that past wars were decided by a chess game, but it would be both interesting and life saving for modern wars to be decided by single mock battles.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2010 at 22:32
Yes, if it were really so today!

But, in our past, we really do not know if what I wrote was true or not?

There have been numerous investigations into the fields of ancient battles that have returned "NOTHING!"

Just like the casualties a Chess Game would produce!

Edited by opuslola - 02-Dec-2010 at 22:34
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  Quote p,c,ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2010 at 16:59

That could be explained by the recycling of arms and armor.

Also mock battles did kind of take place among the people of the classical world in the form of single battles.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2010 at 18:17
I will also suggest that often or not, sometimes the "Jousts" were a means of settling differences!

Of course in the Greek world, there does exist a chance that the Olympic Games performed the same? Please look up the ancient game called, I think "Hippias?"

It is merely a childs way of practicing for a joust!
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  Quote p,c,ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2010 at 19:46
I tried, but I kept getting the tyrant Hippias.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2010 at 22:24
Maybe it was spelled Hippas? Like hippos, horses, etc.? Although Hippias is also important!

Edited by opuslola - 03-Dec-2010 at 22:25
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