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"Cosmic Race" for dummies
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Poll Question: What do you think is the concept of "Cosmic Race" for Latinos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Cosmic Race" for dummies
    Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:18
The concept of "Cosmic Race" is crucial to understand the mentality of Latin America.
In this thread I wish people argue about the topic.
 
Please forgive the title "for dummies" that was just to call the attention and to associate with the famous series of books of the same name. Wink
 
Before defining what is really the "cosmic race" ideology, I wish to hear oppinions first.


Edited by pinguin - 02-Feb-2008 at 02:20
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It's a vehicle for someone to maipulate a forum discussion so he gets to preach a doctrine about how he is a member of superior race to everyone yet again..............
 
How his cosmic race are peaceful, loving and live in a traquil paradise of racial awareness a fraternity. How other races on the continent are murderous genocidal people responsible for all the ills of the world and how everyone should have a DNA test and those who fail are second rate citizens and have no right to live there.


Edited by Paul - 02-Feb-2008 at 12:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 12:38
Originally posted by Paul

It's a vehicle for someone to maipulate a forum discussion so he gets to preach a doctrine about how he is a member of superior race to everyone yet again..............
 
LOL
 
I laugh, because I think you are joking, anyways.
 
In any case, the "cosmic race" is not about a superior race. The ideology of "hybrid vigor" works for maize but not necesarily for humans. Wink
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What a philosophers means when he writes something, and how someone reads it, interprets it and manipulates it to fit his own ideology have nothing in common.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 14:08
Originally posted by Paul

What a philosophers means when he writes something, and how someone reads it, interprets it and manipulates it to fit his own ideology have nothing in common.
 
What do you mean?
 
Sometimes I try hard to understand what you try to say but in this case I failed.
 
What are you trying to say with respect to the topic?
 
Remember that the idea was to ask what people though about the "cosmic race" idea. Nothing else.


Edited by pinguin - 03-Feb-2008 at 14:08
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It's a race for cosmic supremacy, I suppose.
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Notice that no one is participating in the poll, only making comments.
 
 From Answers-
 
                    Cosmic-      
    So pervasive and all-inclusive as to exist in or affect the whole world: catholic, cosmopolitan, ecumenical, global, pandemic, planetary, universal, worldwide. See limited/unlimited, specific/general.
    "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
    Unknown.
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 22:08
    One of the most important of the numerous identity ideologies sprang from Latin America, with the usual lack of comprehension not all Latin Americans are the same, and like all definitions used in identiy politics trying to define one group by one handy label ignoring large parts of the population. Indigenism (=the Native element is the most pure element of Latin) which happens to be the academic fad these days is a reaction against this, and suffering from the same problems. The cosmic race ideology was a reaction against the positivist europhile tradition, which believed that Latin America either was or should become like Europe. All three options having been tried once makes one wonder what the next fad will be.

    Coined by Jos Vasconcelos, IMO the most overrated Mexican intellectual, who happened to be a big fan of Hitler.

    Edited by Mixcoatl - 03-Feb-2008 at 22:10
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 23:03
    Well, I believe the "Cosmic Race" ideology is a reaction to Hispanism.
     
    People should remember than by the early times of independent Latin America, Hispanism was the "racial" ideology of the region. In short, the idea that we were all Hispanic descendents with a little bit of "polution", so to speak.
     
    The "Cosmic Race" ideology was the first to integrate the Native past into our own history.
     
    Yes, Vasconcelos could have been a fan of Hitler, but his ideas helped to easy the conflicts of identity in Latinos. After him, Mexicans found they were "Mexicans" and not just "New Spaniards", and the rest of Latinos followed soon after him.
     
    By the way, extreme Hispanism is a fascist ideology that clashed head on with Indigenism. Between both they pull one way or the other Latinos people caught in between. The "cosmic race" ideology was the solution to the puzzle.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
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    Posts: 952     		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 23:26
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl


    Coined by Jos Vasconcelos, IMO the most overrated Mexican intellectual, who happened to be a big fan of Hitler.
     
    And an anti-semite
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 23:42
    Originally posted by pinguin

    Well, I believe the "Cosmic Race" ideology is a reaction to Hispanism.

    People should remember than by the early times of independent Latin America, Hispanism was the "racial" ideology of the region. In short, the idea that we were all Hispanic descendents with a little bit of "polution", so to speak.

    I agree with that, but the fact that a belief system was formed in reaction against a wrong belief system doesn't make it automatically right.

    The "Cosmic Race" ideology was the first to integrate the Native past into our own history.

    Not really. Before positivism and social darwinism started to kick in, the early 19th century liberals were often quite positive about the natives.
     

    Yes, Vasconcelos could have been a fan of Hitler, but his ideas helped to easy the conflicts of identity in Latinos. After him, Mexicans found they were "Mexicans" and not just "New Spaniards", and the rest of Latinos followed soon after him.
     
    By the way, extreme Hispanism is a fascist ideology that clashed head on with Indigenism. Between both they pull one way or the other Latinos people caught in between. The "cosmic race" ideology was the solution to the puzzle.

    The problem is that the view of Latin Americans as mestizos doesn't take into account the fact that most natives don't consider themselves mestizos at all. Ramming people an identity down their throat is not a solution to identity troubles. That's also why I believe the government should be completely neutral to identity politics: giving a definition of a nation or ethnicity is impossible to do without leaving people out or including them against their will. Combine that with a government officially endorsing such a view and nastiness guaranteed.

    Apart from that, apart from a racial/identity definition, Vasconcelos ascribed all kinds of transcedental, superior qualities to the 'cosmic' race, which is simply racist pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo.
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 23:59
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl


    I agree with that, but the fact that a belief system was formed in reaction against a wrong belief system doesn't make it automatically right.
     
    I agree.

    Originally posted by Mixcoatl

    Not really. Before positivism and social darwinism started to kick in, the early 19th century liberals were often quite positive about the natives.
    .
     
    Yes, you are right in that as well. In fact, just reading the writings of the Independence leaders, Bolivar in Particular, it is easy to see that the Criollos identified with Native Americans. However, they didn't believe were the same people than Natives! That's the problem addressed by the "Cosmic Race" ideology.
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl

      
    The problem is that the view of Latin Americans as mestizos doesn't take into account the fact that most natives don't consider themselves mestizos at all.
     
    True. For natives, everybody else is allien, no matter that there are common blood lines. It is the mestizo (or castizo) which tries to integrate the native part on its identity.
     
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl

      
    Ramming people an identity down their throat is not a solution to identity troubles. That's also why I believe the government should be completely neutral to identity politics: giving a definition of a nation or ethnicity is impossible to do without leaving people out or including them against their will. Combine that with a government officially endorsing such a view and nastiness guaranteed.
     
    Don't agree. Countries need an identity. In fact, Babilonia fall down because an early experiment in "multiculturalism" LOL
     
    In Latin America we believe in the "In Rome do as Romans". So, the immigrant has to addapt to us or leave, and not the other way around. Nationalism is important for us, regardless of the political party that is in power.

    Originally posted by Mixcoatl

      
    Apart from that, apart from a racial/identity definition, Vasconcelos ascribed all kinds of transcedental, superior qualities to the 'cosmic' race, which is simply racist pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo.
     
    Yes, he exagerated and make very strange claims. However, as an educator he defined the programs of identity for Mexico, copied by other Latino countries.
     
    In other words: Mexico was an invention of Vasconcellos. Before him there were Mexicans, of course, but was Vasconcellos who put the accent on the continuity of the country, and who put in fashion the ancient cultures. With him, the statues of Cortes started to fall down at last.
     
     
     
     


    Edited by pinguin - 04-Feb-2008 at 00:01
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 18:35
    Originally posted by pinguin

    However, they didn't believe were the same people than Natives! That's the problem addressed by the "Cosmic Race" ideology.

    Of course they didn't, because they were no natives. And I don't see why that would be a problem, at least I can perfectly sympathise with groups I am not myself a part of.
     
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl

    Don't agree. Countries need an identity. In fact, Babilonia fall down because an early experiment in "multiculturalism" LOL

    Of course it heavily depens on how you define identity, but I don't belief it is necessary for nations to have a common culture, seeing the nation as a political community woud suffice. Think of Switzerland, or even to some degree the United States. Yugoslavia could also serve as an example: for decades its exitance was unquestioned despite the fact it harboured many ethnicity. When the Serbs decided turning it into a greater Servia would be neat it started to crumble.
     
    In Latin America we believe in the "In Rome do as Romans". So, the immigrant has to addapt to us or leave, and not the other way around.

    That is inconsistent with the 'cosmic race' ideology. That would mean that the mestizos, who after all descend partially from immigrants, should adapt the native culture. The only country where that somewhat happened is Paraguay, and even there it is mainly the language.
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 01:48
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl


    Of course they didn't, because they were no natives. And I don't see why that would be a problem, at least I can perfectly sympathise with groups I am not myself a part of.
    .
     
    That's the idea. The Mestizo and the European were alliens in theirs own land. The "cosmic race" ideology created the framework for those people to identify with the land were they stand. Saying "we are all mixed" the ideology was simply saying: this land and THIS PAST also belong to us. We are here to stay. And it is our turn to venerate the memory of the ancestors of this land.
     
    Got it?
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl


    Of course it heavily depens on how you define identity, but I don't belief it is necessary for nations to have a common culture, seeing the nation as a political community woud suffice. Think of Switzerland, or even to some degree the United States. Yugoslavia could also serve as an example: for decades its exitance was unquestioned despite the fact it harboured many ethnicity. When the Serbs decided turning it into a greater Servia would be neat it started to crumble.
    .
     
    It is not the Latin American idea of nationalhood. In here, although the cultures of local minorities are respected and considered national patrimony, we look for equality for the rest in cultural terms. In other words, if you are Argentinean and don't appreciate Tango, what on earth are you doing in Argentina? LOL
    Latinos don't appreciate foreigners that try to live parallel lives. To be accepted they have to convert in us. Otherwise, better live. That's the idea.
     
    Originally posted by Mixcoatl


    That is inconsistent with the 'cosmic race' ideology. That would mean that the mestizos, who after all descend partially from immigrants, should adapt the native culture. The only country where that somewhat happened is Paraguay, and even there it is mainly the language.
     
    We have something called CRIOLLO culture which is the mainstream. That's the culture the mestizo is supposed to be part of. The Criollo culture is the one that have roots both in Europe and locals. Example, the Mexican Charro culture is not the culture of the Mayan of Chiapas, and is not the culture of Seville either. However, have things in common. The Charro is the fusion of two words.
     
    Another example. If you see the way Gauchos dress, you would notice Ponchos and boleadoras, both articles that are Indian, and also all the elements of the Spanish riders. That's a Criollo culture, and that's the fisical representation of the "Cosmic Race".
     
    The culture of the indigenous of these times, although we respect them (or should) is different because it is the original culture of these lands.
     
     
     
     
     


    Edited by pinguin - 07-Feb-2008 at 01:49
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    I don't like the idea of Latin America or Hispanic America.
    We are the Portuguese from Brazil, mixed with all others races and peoples, but we are different from the Castilians, English, French, Dutch our neighbours in South America and we have a big admixture with Blacks, Indians, Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Jews, Gypsies immigrants but we have another completely different history and we are half of South America with a distinct way, a distinct language and State. We have more things in common with Cabo Verde than with Bolivia, there are more Brazilians related with Angola than the Guarani from Paraguai that we had several wars. By the way I think the Portuguese stock and the Castilian stock repel each other anywhere in the world.
    This Cosmic Race is nonsense invented by the Mexicans that never could fight properly since the Astecs time and only lost territory to foreigners ever since.
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:19

    Well, we Hispanic Americans don't consider Brazilians Hispanics at all, but a different group, as allien to us as Americans or West Indians.

    So, the love is mutual :)
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    Posts: 60     		  Quote Bandeirante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:27
    Sorry Pinguin, but Hispanics are just like leftists or trotsquists, if there are 5 Hispanics you will find 6 political groups and you can't understand each other, that's because Spaniards have always been defeated and divided. You don't have common bonds, even in Spain there are Castilians, Catalans, Galegos, Basques, now imagine in America ? You are doomed to be small and fragmented political entities enemies of the other Hispanic neighbours
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    Posts: 60     		  Quote Bandeirante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:49
    Of course we can be good neighbours. Not from Chile, unfortunately, but I don't like administrators like Chavez, Morales and Bush, all are just nuisance.
    I think Bachelet is a good moderate Stateswoman. We don't like Bolivar and all that Bolivarianismo that is the traditional Hispanic caudillismo that led to several wars in the past.
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 17:39
    Originally posted by Bandeirante

    Of course we can be good neighbours. Not from Chile, unfortunately, but I don't like administrators like Chavez, Morales and Bush, all are just nuisance.
    I think Bachelet is a good moderate Stateswoman. We don't like Bolivar and all that Bolivarianismo that is the traditional Hispanic caudillismo that led to several wars in the past.
     
    Bolivar has nothing to do with Chavez, who is a clown like Bush, anyways LOL
    Besides, Caudillismo is not a monopoly of Hispanic America. Remember that Stalin, Franco, Hitler, Tatcher and many other loonies weren't Hispanic Americans at all Confused
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 17:46
    Originally posted by Bandeirante

    Sorry Pinguin, but Hispanics are just like leftists or trotsquists, if there are 5 Hispanics you will find 6 political groups and you can't understand each other,
     
    That's true. We are too much independent minded people to pool together.
     
    Originally posted by Bandeirante

    that's because Spaniards have always been defeated and divided. You don't have common bonds, even in Spain there are Castilians, Catalans, Galegos, Basques, now imagine in America ?
     
    So, instead of fighting each other we integrated in small countries.
     
    Originally posted by Bandeirante

    You are doomed to be small and fragmented political entities enemies of the other Hispanic neighbours
     
    Who is our enemy? I see, you are recalled the ancient Brazilian myth of the manifest destiny of your country. The destinity to be a superpower. I am afraid to wake up you with the fact that Brazil doesn't even got the power of a small country (in population) like Canada. Less could be a competitor to the U.S.
     
    As a brazilian once said: Brazil is the country of the future... and will always be Wink
     
    We Hispanics don't have those dreams of glory in fact. In that, at least, we are more realistic Wink
     
     
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