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Frederik II and the Muslims

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Komnenos View Drop Down
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Frederik II and the Muslims
    Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 03:03
Read recently an article about the German Emperor (1220-1250) Frederik II of Hohenstaufen, grandson of the great Frederik I Barbarossa.
Frederik II was an absolute fascinating character, far more interesting than his more famous grandfather.
He entered world history as the leader of the 5th crusade who in 1229 succeeded to reclaim Jerusalem for the Christians, solely by diplomatic means and without spilling a drop of blood.

He spent most of his life in Sicily where he held court that was more Oriental than European. He surrounded himself with a great number of Arabic philosophers and scientists and many of the higher positions of his administration were held by Muslims.

Most astonishingly, his personal bodyguard consisted of 20.000 Muslim Saracens, who called him the Great Sultan of the Christians and were absolutely devoted to him. Not surprisingly then, that Frederik II was accused by his many enemies to be a heretic and secret follower of the prophet.

This most be truly unique! The Byzantines for examples employed at various times Muslim mercenaries, but that the Imperial Guard of an Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire was exclusively Muslim, is surely unheard of.
Or is it?
Do you know of any other Christian monarch who could command such a loyal following of Muslim troops or advisors?


Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 03:19
IIRC, his personal bodygaurd was composed of muslims, because he didn't trust christians in that position (some pope was ploting to kill him or something).
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 19:07

He was also an expert falconer--so good, in fact, that the book he wrote on the subject is still a standard reference work today.

Frederick ruled when the Mongols were stomping all over Hungary and Poland, and there was at least a dull sense of panic among other Christian states at that time.  When asked about the oncoming Mongol onslaught which never actually came, Frederick reportedly said--no doubt partially in jest and partially in seriousness--that if the Mongols did conquer his territories, he could at least console himself by applying for the position of the Khan's falconer!

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 20:24
And here he is, with his favourite falcon

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 03:17

He was me, in a previoous life

 

seriously us people who are fascinated with foreigeners and their ways are a rare breed at any time.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 15:10

Originally posted by Komnenos

Do you know of any other Christian monarch who could command such a loyal following of Muslim troops or advisors?

 

well, most if not all Norman kings of Sicily had a bodyguard of Muslims, from what I know he just continued the tradition (like Fredericks sucessors in Sicily until the conquest of the Anjous)...there was also a Castilian king who had a bodyguard of Muslims, but hat was a huge exception...

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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 13:33

I see you are all starting to apreciate this truly remarkable fellow.

OK, first of all, a minor correction: he did not lead the 5th Crusade, that was John of Brienne and Cardinal Albano. He was expected to participate, but never showed up, which was one of the reasons for both the christian defeat and his following excommunication. He did went on with the 6th Crusade, using his good relations with al-Kamil to gain a diplomatic victory for Christandom, even while excommunicated.

Also, about that story about him being the Kahn falconer, there is an even more interesting version - one that says that he indeed received a message from the Great Kahn himself, saying that he would give old Fredy the title of Great Falconer after he finished conquering Europe; something that Frederick replied to stating it would be a great honor...

About his muslim connections, one has to remember that his native Sicily had in Messina one of the largest muslim cities in the world, due to the strong arabic presence in the area until the 10th century, when the normans took over. 

Also, here lies the mistery of Frederick's education. Some say he was over-christian, therefore highly ecumenic,  or, on the other hand, some kind of agnostic. One thing is sure, he had a much more iluminated spirit than most rulers of his time.

This is a good topic  . Carry on!

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 16:00
Originally posted by Frederick Roger


I see you are all starting to apreciate this truly remarkable fellow.


OK, first of all, a minor correction: he did not lead the 5th Crusade,that was John of Brienne and Cardinal Albano. He was expected to participate, but never showed up, which was one of the reasons for both the christian defeat and his following excommunication. He did went on with the 6th Crusade, using his good relations with al-Kamil to gain a diplomatic victory for Christandom, even while excommunicated.





There is a major difference in accounting the Crusades in German and English historiographies:
They agree up to the 4th crusade (1202-1204, that ended with the rape of Constantinople), but German historians dont acknowledge the crusade of 1217-1221 (Capture of Damietta), but go straight to Frederik IIs campaign 1227-1229 which reconquered Jerusalem, which thus becomes the 5th crusade.
From then on the order is of course different.
The last recognized campaign in German historiography is the 7th crusade of Louis IX of 1270, while other accounts go up a 9th crusade of Edward I of 1271.



Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 16:22
I tried to make a nice table to illustrate my point, but somehow I couldn't post it.

GERMAN
1st Crusade   1096-1099
2nd Crusade   1146-1149
3rd Crusade   1189-1192
4th Crusade   1202-1204
Not recognised 1217-1221
5th Crusade   1227-1229
6th Crusade   1248-1250
7th Crusade   1270
Not recognised      1271

OTHER
1st Crusade   1096-1099
2nd Crusade   1146-1149
3rd Crusade   1189-1192
4th Crusade   1202-1204
5th Crusade   1217-1221
6th Crusade   1227-1229
7th Crusade   1248-1250
8th Crusade   1270
9th Crusade   1271



Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 13:59

in the meantime there's a new version of the Crusades where the first unrecognized Crusade becomes the 5th Crusade and the old 5th Crusade becomes Fredericks II. Crusade.... but i must say i never heard about that 1271 Crusade before...and from what I heard the 5th Crusade was lead by the Hungarian king.

If i'm not mistaken the German historians only aknowledge Crusades that at least reached their country of destiny...that's the reason why the Nicopolis Crusade is not acknolwedged, not to mention the numerous other Crusades against heathens (like the baltic people) or heretics (Albigensian Crusade/Hussite Crusade) ...

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 14:50
Originally posted by Temujin

in the meantime there's a new version of the Crusades where the first unrecognized Crusade becomes the 5th Crusade and the old 5th Crusade becomes Fredericks II. Crusade.... but i must say i never heard about that 1271 Crusade before...and from what I heard the 5th Crusade was lead by the Hungarian king.




Sorry, I didn't understand any of this!
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 15:22

I just said there's a new system today:

GERMAN
1st Crusade   1096-1099
2nd Crusade   1146-1149
3rd Crusade   1189-1192
4th Crusade   1202-1204
Not recognised 1217-1221 = new 5th Crusade (AFAIK led by king Andras II of Hungary)
5th Crusade   1227-1229 = Fredericks II Crusade
6th Crusade   1248-1250
7th Crusade   1270
Not recognised      1271 (/me never heard of)

now clearer?

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 17:02
Yup, thanks!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 05:12

Originally posted by Komnenos

Do you know of any other Christian monarch who could command such a loyal following of Muslim troops or advisors?

Well, if we shift the words; yeah, i know one monarch: The Britain

the words??====> Not muslim==> ARABS

the king you mention gathered mostly arabs and others who were under arabic culture

Britain bribed, hired, bought, arabs in the 19th century against the Ottoman Empire.

Furthermore a religious creed "vahhabi" was deveoped (which were absolutely not Islam and still dominant all over the Midle East) to provoke all Arabia and Syria against Turks. The "vahhabi" cult requires to behave women(who born us all) like filthy and tradable things. Moreover, the British guided establisher of the cult mam Bin-Vahhab wrote a letter to the turkish sultan and invited him to ISLAM!!!

This is only one part of the fact.

 

So the British method is much more organized, technical, modern and comprehensive.



Edited by YAFES
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 05:17

The Lawrence Of Arabia said;

~"The Arab has only one thing he gives value: his religion, but ready to sell it for one English gold coin."

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 05:56
Originally posted by YAFES

Well, if we shift the words; yeah, i know one monarch: The Britain


the words??====> Not muslim==> ARABS


the king you mention gathered mostly arabs and others who were under arabic culture


Britain bribed, hired, bought, arabs in the 19th century against the Ottoman Empire.


Furthermore a religious creed "vahhabi" was deveoped (which were absolutelynot Islam and still dominant all over the Midle East) to provoke all Arabia andSyriaagainst Turks. The "vahhabi" cult requires to behave women(whoborn us all) like filthy and tradablethings. Moreover, theBritish guided establisher of the cult mam Bin-Vahhab wrote a letter to the turkishsultan and invited him to ISLAM!!!


This is only one part of the fact.



So the British method is much more organized, technical, modern and comprehensive.



I started this thread to discuss a historical figure.

Don't spam this thread, and others, with banal and childish, nationalist and religious propaganda.
Go and bore somebody else!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 08:46
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by YAFES

Well, if we shift the words; yeah, i know one monarch: The Britain


the words??====> Not muslim==> ARABS


the king you mention gathered mostly arabs and others who were under arabic culture


Britain bribed, hired, bought, arabs in the 19th century against the Ottoman Empire.


Furthermore a religious creed "vahhabi" was deveoped (which were absolutely not Islam and still dominant all over the Midle East) to provoke all Arabia and Syria against Turks. The "vahhabi" cult requires to behave women(who born us all) like filthy and tradable things. Moreover, the British guided establisher of the cult mam Bin-Vahhab wrote a letter to the turkish sultan and invited him to ISLAM!!!


This is only one part of the fact.


 


So the British method is much more organized, technical, modern and comprehensive.



I started this thread to discuss a historical figure.

Don't spam this thread, and others, with banal and childish, nationalist and religious propaganda.
Go and bore somebody else!

 

Bored, don't read then.

But i write what the real is.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 13:39

By the way, nationalism is a disease if the planet is full of one only nation.

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 03:40

YAFES

to prevent going way "off topic" in this thread 

if you dont mind

i want to see your opinion about the below thread

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1582& ;PN=2

 

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  Quote violentjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 14:14
Crusades laster 300 Years unoficially

From 1095 Church crusades under forgot what pope,to 1099 and first actuall battle

Before there were some squirmishes like with Alp Arslan in 1071 but this was Byzantines

By 1220 only Acre will hold off under Christian rule,,and this was secured by Richard Lionheart who also took Jaffa,and tried to take Jerusalem,but had those nightmared what if i dont succed.By 1250 crusades were almost over.Nikopole 1395 is last crusading effort to stop Turks.There was Varna 1444 and Crusaders there,and then there was first siege of Belgrade in 1440,second in 1456 and third last in 1521

Crusades for Rodos and Cyprus

So,Crusades are still on,if you count Gwb as last Cruasedr,though he is certainly dumbest crusader Muslims are facing now.Richard was smart and skillfull.but those new crusaders,are just joke.,
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