Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Learning one of the Scandinavian Languages Posted: 27-May-2008 at 16:39 |
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Indeed, the non-english board was closed a while ago, cause not everyone could follow the trips in other languages.
So, hvernig segir maður a ensku ? |
Man säger, I know precisely what you're talking about.
|
|
Efraz
Pretorian
Joined: 23-Apr-2008
Location: Istanbul
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 151
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2008 at 16:48 |
uhn... so you say it's really easy for an English speaker to learn Swedish eh?
I am a language freak and love the Norse culture... Probably I will never go up there in my life but would be fun to try to learn. I have studied Greek and latin. Hmm this could be good.
Do you recommend a training, course, book or online thing?
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2008 at 16:56 |
Originally posted by EbbeLockert
Originally posted by King John
EbbeLockert, i Norge, kommer du fra?
| Directly translated, that would mean "in Norway, do you come from?"If you meant to add an "hvor" before the "i" and say "where in Norway do you come from?", I'd answer Levanger. That is a small town a few miles north of Trondheim, which is one of the major cities of Norway.If you meant to ask whether I came from Norway, the answer would be "yes". |
I omitted the adverb "where" (hvor) for some reason. Thank you for pointing that out.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2008 at 20:49 |
Originally posted by Efraz
uhn... so you say it's really easy for an English speaker to learn Swedish eh?
I am a language freak and love the Norse culture... Probably I will never go up there in my life but would be fun to try to learn. I have studied Greek and latin. Hmm this could be good.
Do you recommend a training, course, book or online thing?
| Swedish, or any Scandinavian language for that matter, would be rather easy to learn for an english speaker. Simple conjugation, many words with a common root etc.etc. There are really no cases or difficoult verbal modes. For an english speaker, getting used to the genders and the rolled R could be the worst part of the expirience. I don't know of any good course, but I would recomend you to gt in touch with a native speaker as quickly as possible after begining to learn the language. Pages such as www.sharedtalk.com can help you gt in touch with people speaking the language.
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-May-2008 at 02:44 |
Here's a summary of what is going on in chapter 3 of Danbolt.
Chapter 3
Grammar Point 1
Word Order:
-Normally the word order is Subject Verb Object eg: Jeg reiser til Norge (I travel to Norway).
-If the sentence starts with a little word such as nå or så, expressions like i morgen or i sommer, or a dependent clause the subject and the verb change places.
- Examples
a. De reiser til Norge (they travel to Norway) now compare that with
Nå reiser de til Norge (Now they travel to Norway)
b. De reiser til Norge i sommer (They travel to Norway in the summer)
I sommer reiser de til Norge (In the summer they travel to Norway)
c. De skal spise, når de kommer (They will eat, when they come.)
Når de kommer, skal de spise. (When they come, they will eat.) Notice that Når de kommer is dependent on the following clause. When they come, they will eat.
Grammar point 2
Nouns (plural)
-Plural of indefinite nouns is formed by -er at the end of the noun. If the word already ends with an -e then you just add the -r
-en bil (a car) biler (cars)
-en buss (a bus) busser (busses)
-et hotell (a hotel) hoteller (hotels) *{edit as pointed out by Ekke hotell is a et word not an en word}
-Short (one syllable) et words take no endings in the plural (with a few exceptions)
-et kurs (a course) kurs (courses)
-et bord (a table) bord (tables)
Grammar point 3
Adjectives and Noun pairs (pt II)
-Indefinite Singular
-en bil (a car)
-en stor bil (a big car)
-et kart (a map)
-et stort kart (a big map)
-Definite Singular*
-bilen (the car)
-den store bilen (the big car)
-kartet (the map)
-det store kartet (the big map)
-Indefinite Plural
-mange biler (many cars)
-mange store biler (many big cars)
-mange kart (many maps)
-mange store kart (many big maps)
*Notice that in the definite singular the adjective has its plural ending and in addition to the noun definite ending there is a definite article den/det. A separate definite article is only used when a noun is modified by an adjective.
Grammar point 4
The adjective liten (small)
en liten bil den lille bilen mange små biler
et lite glass det lille glasset mange små glass
Edited by King John - 02-Jun-2008 at 20:24
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-May-2008 at 06:17 |
Here's a summary of what going on in Chapter 4 of Danbolt.
Chapter 4
Grammar Point 1
Nouns definite plural
-The definite plural is formed by adding -ene to the end of the noun. This is true for both -en words and -et words
-EG
et kart en bil
kartet bilen
kart biler
kartene bilene
Grammar Point 2
Adjectives and Noun pairs (pt III): Definite Plural
-Like in the definite singular when the noun is preceded by an adjective there is a definite article and definite ending.
-EG
Bilene er der (the cars are there)
De store bilene er der (the big cars are there)
den lille bilen (the small car)
det lille kartet (the small map)
de små bilene (the small cars)
de små kartene (the small maps)
Grammar Point 3
Adjectives
-Adjectives that are Nationalities do not take a -t at the end of -et words
-EG
amerikansk amerikansk amerikanske American
engelsk engelsk engelske English
norsk norsk norske Norwegian
skandinavisk skandinavisk skandinaviske Scandinavian
-Adjectives ending in -ig do not take a -t at the end of -et words
-EG
hyggelig hyggelig hyggelige nice/pleasent
kjedelig kjedelig kjedelige boring
-Most adjectives with a double consonant drop one before the -t
-EG
grønn grønt grønne green
tykk tykt tykke thick
-Adjectives ending in -el, -en, or -er are slightly irregular in the definite singular and plural
-EG
gammel gammelt gamle old
sulten sultent sultne hungry
vakker vakkert vakre beautiful
-Some are just irregular
-EG
blå blått blå blue
Grammar Point 4
Relative Pronouns (Who/Which/that)
-The relative pronoun is som regardless of whether it is referring to an animal, person, or object
Grammar Point 5
Here and There
-There are two words or both here and there. Usage is determined by whether or not there is any movement.
-When there is no movement the form that is used is her (here) and der (there).
-When there is movement *to a location* the form that is used is hit (here) and dit (there).
Those are the grammar points of chapter 4. I hope the people trying to learn Norwegian, like me, find this helpful.
*=edit, thank you EbbeLockert for pointing out the lack of clarity in my statement.
Edited by King John - 03-Jun-2008 at 00:00
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 12:03 |
Nice work! Just a few things:
1) it's ET hotell, not EN hotell
2) By following that book, you'll be writing and speaking very nice. I.e. a bit more than a bit upper-class. (actually, writing very riksmål - upper class/danish-like - is accepted, but speaking that way might sound a tad weird and even enhance the impression of you guys being forigners, as they often try to speak more correctly than the rest of us) Whether you think that's cool or not, that's up to you. It really depends on why you are learning the language.
3) Her/hit and Der/dit are easily the same as english Here/hither and There/thither, though the latter forms are seldom (i.e. never) used in modern english.
Dit and hit signify movement to the location, not just any momvement. If you aim to express movement from a location, use derfra and herfra (There-from and here-from, fra means from).
|
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 12:21 |
Originally posted by EbbeLockert
N 2) By following that book, you'll be writing and speaking very nice. I.e. a bit more than a bit upper-class. (actually, writing very riksmål - upper class/danish-like - is accepted, but speaking that way might sound a tad weird and even enhance the impression of you guys being forigners, as they often try to speak more correctly than the rest of us) Whether you think that's cool or not, that's up to you. It really depends on why you are learning the language.
|
I got the impression that there are large differences between the way people actually speak in Norway. In Sweden the riksmål has become entrenched and is no longer considered upper class. The main difference between how people speak here is now basicly only the melody. Dialects still exist, but people don't use them when talking to Swedes from other parts of the country. Is the situation similar in Norway or do people use their dialects irregardless of whom they speak to? Edit: I was just about to comment how surprised I was that the grammar had been simplified so much, but when you said it was the Danishy language I guess that explains it.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Jun-2008 at 12:23
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 12:30 |
In Norway dialectal variations are generally acceptened and even enjoyed, even though somebody (the riksmål-movement mainly) would like to eradicate dialectal differences.
Personally I come from Trøndelag, a thus I got a clearly distinct dialect, but I do not alter my dialect when speaking to people from other places. Personally, I appreciate my local heritage and regional background too much to just give it up for a flat, boring imitation of danish (conservative written norwegian). I think most norwegians agree with me, except for those born in Oslo, who would wish the rest of the country spoke like them.
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 16:27 |
Originally posted by EbbeLockert
Nice work! Just a few things:
1) it's ET hotell, not EN hotell
2) By following that book, you'll be writing and speaking very nice. I.e. a bit more than a bit upper-class. (actually, writing very riksmål - upper class/danish-like - is accepted, but speaking that way might sound a tad weird and even enhance the impression of you guys being forigners, as they often try to speak more correctly than the rest of us) Whether you think that's cool or not, that's up to you. It really depends on why you are learning the language.
3) Her/hit and Der/dit are easily the same as english Here/hither and There/thither, though the latter forms are seldom (i.e. never) used in modern english. Dit and hit signify movement to the location, not just any momvement.
If you aim to express movement from a location, use derfra and herfra (There-from and here-from, fra means from). |
Thank you for the corrections I might have just read the book wrong and transposed a few letters. Generally when learning languages in the US we are taught one specific dialect and often it is a very upper class one. If one learns spanish one is taught Castillian, if one learns french one is taught Parisian, if one learns Italian one is taught Florentine, and so on. So I am used to the "upper class/danish like" way of speaking and writing when learning. I am learning the language for use some time in the future. Would you care to show us a more lower/middle class version of what we have learned so far? Do you use Bokmål instead? Is riksmål considered archaic?
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 16:58 |
A minor question of interest to me in another area. From the examples it seems that Norwegian uses a different verb (as German and Russian do) for travelling in a vehicle instead of under your own power (fahren/gehen, iexat'/idti). Is that correct? How about Swedish?
I'm told by Danes that they don't use a verb in saying things like "I'm going to town", though they will add 'with the car' or whatever for clarity. Is that generally correct and does it apply to Norwegian and Swedish?
And a different question. What are the third person reflexive pronouns in the Scandinavian languages? I'm referring to the use as in 'er freut sich' or 'il se démenage'. The Celtic and Romance languages correspond to French and German, Russian doesn't use them, and in English they are gender-specific.
|
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 19:08 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
A minor question of interest to me in another area. From the examples it seems that Norwegian uses a different verb (as German and Russian do) for travelling in a vehicle instead of under your own power (fahren/gehen, iexat'/idti). Is that correct? How about Swedish? |
Yes, Swedish have them too. Fara means to travel in general and åka means to travel by vehicle (boat, horse cart, car, airplane etc, anything but by your own feet, as you noticed). If you travel by foot you use gå (pronounced [gaw], akin to go), which nowadays also means to walk.
I'm told by Danes that they don't use a verb in saying things like "I'm going to town", though they will add 'with the car' or whatever for clarity. Is that generally correct and does it apply to Norwegian and Swedish? |
I don't really see what the Danes meant by that . The closest I can think of in Swedish is: jag ska till stan. Literally "I shall to town" - we do omit the travelling verb here.
And a different question. What are the third person reflexive pronouns in the Scandinavian languages? I'm referring to the use as in 'er freut sich' or 'il se démenage'. The Celtic and Romance languages correspond to French and German, Russian doesn't use them, and in English they are gender-specific. |
Sig. In modern Standard Swedish it has come to be pronounced [say], but dialectal variations exist. Don't really know how the others pronounce it.
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 20:09 |
Thanks. I checked back on the 'to town' thing, and yes they put in a 'shall': they just meant they didn't use any verb meaning 'go'. It's a bit like Pepysian English:
On the third person reflexive pronouns I'm interested because I don't know of any language but English that has gender specific ones: 'himself', 'herself', 'itself' but no equivalent to the gender-free sich/se/sig/ei.
Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Jun-2008 at 20:11
|
|
Northman
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:17 |
About the going to town expression, in Danish we commonly use to state it like:
"Jeg/han/hun tager til byen i morgen" ="I/he/she/ am/is/is going to town tomorrow" - where we use "tager til"(taking to) instead of "going to."
The means of transportation doesn't matter.
I think this is also used in Norwegian and Swedish.
If we want to clarify the means of transportation, we could say:
Jeg/han/hun kører (are driving).... - or Jeg/han/hun går (are walking).....
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:22 |
Here's a summary of what is going on in Chapter 5 of Danbolt
Chapter 5
Grammar Point 1
Demonstratives: this/these, that/those
-These words are used in the same way as English. They appear in three forms
-denne this -den that
-dette this -det that
-disse these -de those
denne is used for en words and dette is used for et words
den is used for en words and det for et words
-At times the adverbs her (here) and der(there) are coupled with these demonstrative as a means of emphasis.
-denne takes the adverb her
EG
-Jeg kjører i denne bilen her
-I drive in this car here. (This type of construction is not present in most dialects of English. It does exist in some very lower class constructions. In these constructions one would say I drive this her car. Tis is not a "correct" way of expressing this idea. The correct form would be simply not translating the emphatic her. This sentence would read: I drive this car.)
-den takes the adverb der
EG
-John går ned den gaten der.
-John goes down that street there. (See parenthetical note above and substitute there for here.)
Grammar Point 2
Imperatives
-Imperatives are verbs that give orders. In English we use the imperative in situations like telling a dog to sit (Rover, sit!), telling somebody to go home (John, go home!)
-The version of the verb that is used to form the imperative is the shortest form. This form is called the stem.
-The stem is the form used to make the imperative
Grammar Point 3
Nouns
-In previous chapters we have seen the regular form of nouns, there are some nouns that are irregular.
EG
en lærer læreren lærere lærerne teacher
en seddel seddelen sedler sedlene banknote
et teater teateret teatre teatrene theater
en mann mannen menn mennene man
Grammar Point 4
og, men, fordi and, but, because:
3 examples of conjunctions
- Conjunctions are words that link two sentences together in order to form one sentence.
EG
I went to the store. I bought milk. I went to the store and bought milk
I like Krista. I do not like Rachel. I like Krista but not Rachel
I went to the store. I need milk. I went to the store because I needed milk.
-These conjunctions are used the same in Norwegian as they are in English
Og = and
Men = but
fordi = because
Grammar Point 5
Possessive Genitive (English 's)
-When indicating who or what owns something is formed by adding -s- to the end of a noun.
EG
-Johns motorsykkel (John's motorcycle)
-Notice the similarity between Norwegian -s and the English -'s.
(I know there is more to the genitive and that will be discussed later)
These are the grammar points found in chapter 5 of Danbolt. I hope you all found this helpful.
|
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:28 |
Originally posted by Northman
About the going to town expression, in Danish we commonly use to state it like:
"Jeg/han/hun tager til byen i morgen" ="I/he/she/ am/is/is going to town tomorrow" - where we use "tager til"(taking to) instead of "going to."
The means of transportation doesn't matter.
I think this is also used in Norwegian and Swedish.
|
Yes, now that you mention it, we have that also: taga sig någonstans - take oneself somewhere=going somewhere(yes, it can have other meanings also...). It isn't commonly used in this case though, and has a different nuance than in Danish. We can use köra also, but it implies that you are the one doing the driving. Åka only refers to the passive passengers.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Jun-2008 at 21:29
|
|
King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:30 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
]And a different question. What are the third person reflexive pronouns in the Scandinavian languages? I'm referring to the use as in 'er freut sich' or 'il se démenage'. The Celtic and Romance languages correspond to French and German, Russian doesn't use them, and in English they are gender-specific. |
From what I can tell in Norwegian the reflexive pronoun is seg for both sexes and in both the singular and plural. I am going to check to see what Old Norse does in this case. Once I find out I will edit this post.
|
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:42 |
Originally posted by King John
Originally posted by gcle2003
]And a different question. What are the third person reflexive pronouns in the Scandinavian languages? I'm referring to the use as in 'er freut sich' or 'il se démenage'. The Celtic and Romance languages correspond to French and German, Russian doesn't use them, and in English they are gender-specific. | From what I can tell in Norwegian the reflexive pronoun is seg for both sexes and in both the singular and plural. I am going to check to see what Old Norse does in this case. Once I find out I will edit this post.
|
Iirc it's sik. Which is also used in some Swedish dialects.
|
|
Northman
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 21:53 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
We can use köra also, but it implies that you are the one doing the driving. Åka only refers to the passive passengers.
|
Yes - there are many ways of expressions.
However, we don't use "åka" in modern Danish anymore, but the Danish version "age" was commonly used 100 years ago and before that.
We use "køre" in both contexts: Jeg kører / Jeg kører med ham ~ I'm driving/I'm driving with him.
Typical piece of conversation:
Her: Jeg tager til byen i morgen. ~ I'm going to town tomorrow.
Him: Kører du selv? ~ Are you driving yourself?
Her: Nej, jeg tager bussen ~ No, I'm taking the bus
|
|
Styrbiorn
Caliph
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 22:05 |
Originally posted by Northman
Yes - there are many ways of expressions.
However, we don't use "åka" in modern Danish anymore, but the Danish version "age" was commonly used 100 years ago and before that.
We use "køre" in both contexts: Jeg kører / Jeg kører med ham ~ I'm driving/I'm driving with him.
Typical piece of conversation:
Her: Jeg tager til byen i morgen. ~ I'm going to town tomorrow.
Him: Kører du selv? ~ Are you driving yourself?
Her: Nej, jeg tager bussen ~ No, I'm taking the bus |
Almost the same in Swedish ([] indicates typical omissions in speech, which usually confuses other scandinavians):
Her: Jag far till sta[de]n imorgon. ~ I'm going to town tomorrow.
Him: Kör du själv? ~ Are you driving yourself?
Her: Nej, jag ta[ge]r bussen ~ No, I'm taking the bus
|
|