Ancestoral blame and moral judgements - History Forum ~ All Empires

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

It doesn't matter how much of that blood they have - it's a belief!

A belief of fascists and ignorants. It is not the way the average Latino thinks.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

OK so you seem reluctant to accept that a ladino with Indian blood can racisticly discriminate a native American.

Nope. I said what was going on there wasn't racism but ethnic discrimination.

First, Ladinos is a synonim of Sephardite, which mean Spanish Jew. Perhaps you mean Latino (Latin american citizen) or maybe Mestizo or Castizo (European + 1/2 and 1/4 Native American, respectively).

So, let's start from the beginning. These days, 500 years after Columbus, not all American Indians are pure Indians. Some are blond blue eyed! Besides, not all "Europeans" are pure European, because some look Indigenous. Put it in another way: not all rich look European and not all poor look Indigenous. Mixtures are very uniform. To complicate more things, in countries like Paraguay, no matter you are pure white you speak Guarani.

However, in some countries such as Peru, Bolivia and in some ways in Mexico as well, there is a divide between the mainstream Hispanic culture and the Indigenous peoples. That's something that have been going on during centuries, and that still isn't fixed. A shame in Latin America but an actual fact.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

You back it up with the fact that it MUST be two different races. Please be aware that there are no races as has been recently pointed out. Even a greater nonsense is superiority of one or the other race, which by your logics means that racism doesn't exist. But you never questioned this term and seem to pretty well accept it - so is the actual genus or the belief important?? There is racism because people believe there are races and that their race is superior to the rest.

The problem is not race but culture. Some people believe here that European culture is superior to Indigenous culture. That's were the problems starts. However, as I said before, not all the people agree with the fascists.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

You refuse the concept of racism based on exclusively a belief, but you don't have any problem with the concept of racism itself. What does it mean? It means you're a racist. Wink

Therefore I would suggest that you abandon this silly position you hold.

Nonsense. What's going on in here, as I have said to you several times, it is not racism but a mixture between classism and ethnic divide.

In Chile, in particular, although there are still many problems of abusses against Indigenous people, they are each generation more educated and accepted by the mainstream. Even more, people in general are starting to value a culture that is also theirs.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by pinguin

New generations are changing those attitudes but still there is lot to be done. In my country, for instance, indigenous people used to be shy about theirs customs but not anymore. Today all the country is more receptive to them.

Glad to hear that. But this really is that 'double standard' - you defend your own people by the fact that they're much more tolerant nowadays. If this is to defend them, then the fact that all European nations are entirely tolerant today should give end to this thread, because there would be no collective guilt possible. Wink

So I would suggest you cease this position as well.

Fellow, you can't have an idea of what has been going on in here, because you live so far away. Let me say just one thing. During most of the 19th century and 3/4 of the twenty, large number of Chileans were treated as servants! We had a strike on the mining industry at the beginning of the century were 3.000 were shot dead. We had many rural violence. Half our population was alcoholic in the 40s, and we had the higher children dead rate in the world at those times. During the 20s people died of hunger here. And during the 70s a military coup killed thousand, tortured a hundred thousand and sent to the exile 1/10 of our population!

In all these Indians and not Indians had suffered the same, because they were poor. The fascists have always been our rich people.

We know who our enemies are: the rich. And in here those ideologies of racism, design to divide the working class people don't convince us.

Edited by pinguin - 16-Jul-2008 at 03:43

Originally posted by pinguin

We know who our enemies are: the rich. And in here those ideologies of racism, design to divide the working class people don't convince us.

I wouldn't say all rich, because that would be the classism you hate so much. This reminds me the old joke about Bolsheviks.

(Petersburgh, 1917)Young Russian noble drinks her morning tea and hears some noise from outside. She asks her maid:
- Katja, what's going on outside?
- There's a revolution going on madamme.
- Who leads the revolution?
- Bolsheviks
- My grandfather was a revolutionaire as well. He was a Dekabrist. What the goal of these Bolsheviks
- Their goal is that there were no rich.
- Strange. My grandfather's goal was that there were no poor.

Do you get it? It is not richness that is bad, it's poverty that is bad and the best thing is to make the poor rich, not get rid of the rich and all be poor.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

....
Do you get it? It is not richness that is bad, it's poverty that is bad and the best thing is to make the poor rich, not get rid of the rich and all be poor.

Of course, no all rich are bad at all. I wouldn't blame someone that get rich by its own merits, as a sportman, movie actor or inventor. However, people that are rich because the explotation of servs really deserve a bullet in the skull. In places like the jungles of Brazil there is still people living in conditions of semi-slavery, and in the mines of Bolivia certainly people lived that way. In all countries of Latin America there is still problems with the low wages of workers.

Racial problems don't exist in Latin America between Indigenous and not-Indigenous people in here, a problem that do exist between Blacks and the rest, though. And I mean racism to the discrimination on facial features, body shapes, etc. It is important that you understand that, because the reaction of Latinos to physical aspects of people is high, and Latinos (in general or in average) don't accept well blacks, australoid or extreme mongoloid people, rejecting them just by looks, something you don't witness much with Indians.

What do exist, though is a discrimination to Indigenous cultures and customs. It seem some people in here believes accepting indigenous customs, traditions and language is a sort of "treason to Europe". Sometimes people offend each other calling themselves "indian", which mean in local slang: "savage". There is also indigenism in here, that is people of no direct link to Indian who call themselves Indians. Sometimes they are violent, like the brave fans of a soccer team that call themselves Indians in Chile, who have killed several neonazis.

Yes, we have those conflicts in here, but they are a lot more complex and difficult to explain that just calling it racism and ask to follow Martin Luther King...

Edited by pinguin - 16-Jul-2008 at 15:46