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Ancestoral blame and moral judgements

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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancestoral blame and moral judgements
    Posted: 08-Jul-2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Panther

Pinguin,
 
I've read your arguments in defense of your belief's, as well as your accusations towards the US or other European countries for the past & present difficulties in the region. I don't know exactly what to make of the evolution of your views towards this topic, to be honest?
 
As a chilean citizen, I know both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. played chess with us as theirs pawns. We hate them both for that and we won't forgive them. It cost us thousand of citizens dead and hundreds of thousand tortured and exiliated, when the fascist military gorillas of my country following the instructions of that fascist U.S. president called Nixon, put in power of my country that bloody rascal called Pinochet.
 
So, don't tell me I don't know what the superpowers have done in my region, or put all our faults upon ourselves alone.
 
 
Originally posted by Panther

So if i were to take your reasoning to it's eventual conclusions and reapply it in reverse towards the US or other European countries,  the conflicts between the natives and settlers should have been viewed all this time as one about "ethnicity and not racial" in the least. So that makes everything justifiably alright with no real victims in end! Wait a minute, WTF!! Am i missing something here? Then what his all this hoopla about victims and their rights been about over the last decade or so?
 
 
With respect to your doubts, you have to realize that Latin America broke free only in the 19th century. You can´t blame us about what happened when this land was in the claws of Spain.
 
Even though, since the beginning a large part of the Indian population allied and mixed with the Europeans in here. So racial differences went blured.
 
Insisting in racism is not knowing Latin America. Racism exist in here, but mainly to outsiders. Ethnic discrimination can be very strong as well, in all its forms: religious, linguistic, historical, etc.
 
 
I'm still not convinced. It just sounds like your applying a double standard here, that you accuse other nationalities of? Yours is the only country to have suffered only ethnic problems, with no rasicsm at all? Uh, yeah... is that even possible! Personally, i'd rather leave all the judging of societies too others, but seeing that you are defending yours tooth and nail from all criticism, i've found myself confronted with more questions than answers supplied by you. Maybe something is getting lost in translation between us?
 
Concerning the cold war and other tragic problems of Chiles past. Not too sound shallow & unfeeling, but if that is all Chile had too suffer from, she should consider herself lucky considering the intensity of the cold war at the height of the conflict in other regions of the world!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2008 at 03:44
Originally posted by Panther

 
I'm still not convinced. It just sounds like your applying a double standard here, that you accuse other nationalities of? Yours is the only country to have suffered only ethnic problems, with no rasicsm at all? Uh, yeah... is that even possible! Personally, i'd rather leave all the judging of societies too others, but seeing that you are defending yours tooth and nail from all criticism, i've found myself confronted with more questions than answers supplied by you. Maybe something is getting lost in translation between us?
 
Concerning the cold war and other tragic problems of Chiles past. Not too sound shallow & unfeeling, but if that is all Chile had too suffer from, she should consider herself lucky considering the intensity of the cold war at the height of the conflict in other regions of the world!
 
Semantics, Panther. Is terminology.
 
If a Black person is killed by a White nazi, that's racism.
 
If a Polish immigrant is killed by a German-American because he is an allien, that is not racism but xenophoby.
 
Get it. You can't apply the term racism to some Latin American conflicts when people looks the same! For heaveans! You can't say there is racism in China when crashes a minority!
 
I don't know why the first thing Americans and Europeans say when we explain the problem is not racism is "double standard". Nope, we acknowledge discrimination, abusses and crimes. The thing we don't accept is to qualify  that kind of discrimination as racism when what was going on there is xenophoby. Indians are considered, by some, foreigners in theirs own lands. In the case of Guatemala, the killers and the victims were of the same ethnic group!
 
In Latin America the people that really suffer racism many times are Blacks and Asians, although I doubt with the intensity you see in other latitudes. Nordic people can also be victims of racism in here.
 
I am not describing a paradyse in here. But I want the description is accurate.
 
With respect to my lucky country, yes, it wasn't so devasting as the Vietnam  war or the guerrilla was in Colombia, Peru or Central America. However, it crushed our dignity and broke a century of democratic traditions.
 
We took revenge, though, mainly against our own gorillas. However, Kissinger and Nixon escaped unharmed.
 
By the way, I remember one day a chilean TV team reach the home of a former retired CIA agent that comploted for the chilean coup. The old guy was scared the s--t.... and her ancient wife almost suffered a heart attack. Then I realize how lowly was the people that affect us  that much... Revenge wasn't worthly.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 08-Jul-2008 at 03:54
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2008 at 23:00
Originally posted by pinguin

[QUOTE=Panther]
If a Black person is killed by a White nazi, that's racism.
 
If a Polish immigrant is killed by a German-American because he is an allien, that is not racism but xenophoby.

And what if a nazi kills a Jew?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 10:50
Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 11:38
Originally posted by pinguin

If a Black person is killed by a White nazi, that's racism.


No. If a black person is killed by a white Nazi BECAUSE he's black, only then it's racism. If, for instance, the Nazi kills the black person because the black person murdered his family that's vengeance, not racism.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 12:14
Originally posted by gcle2003

Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
good point, which most probably will be ignored.

Race, pinguin, is perceived...


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by Paul

... 
Hypocrite!
 
And a fraction of a percent doesn't really count. Otherwise half the population of Spain can go to Chille tomorrow to evict Chileans from their lands.
 
Paul, it seems you have a free ride to offend me here. Anyways. We are a free country from Spain. We defeat them in battle in the same way the U.S. got rid of Britain.
 
In Chile there wasn't an apparheid policy like in the U.S. that kept people appart. Here, natives mixed with Spaniards since the beginning. So, I have nothing to do with Spain, except many of my ancestors came from there. Some as conquerors, others as colones but most as immigrants during republican times. Other of my ancestors have always live here.
 
Please, Paul, if you don't have idea, don't call me hypocrite and just close gently your mouth.
 
In any case, if I try to enter Spain I would probably be deported Confused
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 17:21
Originally posted by gcle2003

Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
 
Facial features are also included. Racism is based in physical differences. It is amazing that so many people keep confussing terms. It seems "racism" is such a fashionable term that even when other kind of discrimination goes on people insist in using theirs favorite label.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 17:22
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by gcle2003

Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
good point, which most probably will be ignored.

Race, pinguin, is perceived...


 
Accents and crosses are also perceived.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 17:59
I'll partially go with Pinguin on the broad definition of racism and stretch it a bit. Discrimination is discrimination. One party classifies another. When based on race you might think the catagory has become more detailed. Yet that is so general that almost anything could be racial these days. Features, skin tone, affilited political groups, IQ, you name it.

Edited by Seko - 14-Jul-2008 at 18:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 18:36
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
 
Facial features are also included. Racism is based in physical differences. It is amazing that so many people keep confussing terms. It seems "racism" is such a fashionable term that even when other kind of discrimination goes on people insist in using theirs favorite label.

There is no way to distinguish a (European) Jew from a German. So I assume you also believe the Holocaust had nothing to do with racism?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 20:04
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

...
There is no way to distinguish a (European) Jew from a German. So I assume you also believe the Holocaust had nothing to do with racism?
 
Indeed. No one is more ignorant than a Nazi.
 
They hated the Jews because they succeed more than the average Nazi looser, and had nothing better to do that call Jews "a race".  Then, they had to figure it out ways to distinguish the Jews from the rest. What is more tragical and pathetic is that many Nazis indeed had hebrew ancestry, perhaps including Hitler himself....
 
And nobody noticed it.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

Why do people think race is indicated by skin colour?
 
Facial features are also included. Racism is based in physical differences.

Physical differences aere not necessarily visible.


 It is amazing that so many people keep confussing terms. It seems "racism" is such a fashionable term that even when other kind of discrimination goes on people insist in using theirs favorite label.

There is no way to distinguish a (European) Jew from a German. So I assume you also believe the Holocaust had nothing to do with racism?


I'm not sure it's true there is no way to distinguish (physically) a European Jew from a German. Or indeed a Welshman from a Bavarian.

But anyhow racism is subjective - it depends on whether the racist believes there is such a distinction. Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 20:43
Originally posted by Seko

I'll partially go with Pinguin on the broad definition of racism and stretch it a bit. Discrimination is discrimination. One party classifies another. When based on race you might think the catagory has become more detailed. Yet that is so general that almost anything could be racial these days. Features, skin tone, affilited political groups, IQ, you name it.


Anything heritable is a parameter in distinguishing racial groupings. However racial distinctions are temporary, since, while species, once formed, can't re-merge, races can.

It's like languages - they don't merely grow apart as time goes by, they also assimilate and reassimilate.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 20:48
Originally posted by gcle2003

....

I'm not sure it's true there is no way to distinguish (physically) a European Jew from a German. Or indeed a Welshman from a Bavarian.

But anyhow racism is subjective - it depends on whether the racist believes there is such a distinction. Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong.

 
It doesn't matter to me how people define racism. What matters to me is that anyone that wants to lecture about racism in Latin America should first go to the dictionary and find the definition.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 21:01

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

OK so this is a dictionary definition - I think it quite well supports gcle2003.

and another one: 1. a belief that human races have distinctive characteristics that determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one’s race is superior and has the right to control others.

And one more question: was it more important for Jews how Hitler defined the race or dictionary or you?...sure it was HitlerWink


Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jul-2008 at 21:05
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 21:25
Let me put in this way. There are some rich people that believe there are two kind of homo sapiens: humans and sub-humans. Or as Aldoux Huxley put it: alphas and betas. They believe people that work for others is genetically conditionated to do so and be poor forever.
 
No matter how much I hate that definition, that it isn't racism but classism.
 
In the case of Latin America, in cases as in Bolivia and Guatemala, what exist is ethnic discrimination and ethnic divides. I challenge you to divide those people by race, just looking at theirs phenotype, without resorting to ethnic clothings.
 


Edited by pinguin - 14-Jul-2008 at 21:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2008 at 23:24
Originally posted by pinguin

In the case of Latin America, in cases as in Bolivia and Guatemala, what exist is ethnic discrimination and ethnic divides. I challenge you to divide those people by race, just looking at theirs phenotype, without resorting to ethnic clothings.
 

Slayertplsko pretty much answered that in his last question, replace Jews by Native Americans and Hitler by mestizos/criollos/ladinos. It doesn't matter if there is an actual genetic/racial difference (which is something nonsensical from a scientific point of view anyway), if the people looking down upon others percieve a racial difference, if they think the other is somehow inherently different/inferior because of his ethnicity or ancestry (which many Guatemalan ladinos and Bolivian whites definately do), it is racism.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 01:58
It is an unaceptable discrimination. I agree on that. Unfortunately, as you may know, the ones that discriminate Indigenous people the most are those that have tons of Indian blood themselves.
 
New generations are  changing those attitudes but still there is lot to be done. In my country, for instance, indigenous people used to be shy about theirs customs but not anymore. Today all the country is more receptive to them.
 
 
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2008 at 09:28
Originally posted by pinguin

It is an unaceptable discrimination. I agree on that. Unfortunately, as you may know, the ones that discriminate Indigenous people the most are those that have tons of Indian blood themselves.


It doesn't matter how much of that blood they have - it's a belief!
OK so you seem reluctant to accept that a ladino with Indian blood can racisticly discriminate a native American. You back it up with the fact that it MUST be two different races. Please be aware that there are no races as has been recently pointed out. Even a greater nonsense is superiority of one or the other race, which by your logics means that racism doesn't exist. But you never questioned this term and seem to pretty well accept it - so is the actual genus or the belief important?? There is racism because people believe there are races and that their race is superior to the rest.

You refuse the concept of racism based on exclusively a belief, but you don't have any problem with the concept of racism itself. What does it mean? It means you're a racist.Wink
Therefore I would suggest that you abandon this silly position you hold.


Originally posted by pinguin

New generations are  changing those attitudes but still there is lot to be done. In my country, for instance, indigenous people used to be shy about theirs customs but not anymore. Today all the country is more receptive to them.


Glad to hear that. But this really is that 'double standard' - you defend your own people by the fact that they're much more tolerant nowadays. If this is to defend them, then the fact that all European nations are entirely tolerant today should give end to this thread, because there would be no collective guilt possible.Wink
So I would suggest you cease this position as well.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 15-Jul-2008 at 09:33
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