Ancestoral blame and moral judgements

There are some situations where it is impossible to address past injustices beyond acknowledging past errors, such like the many cases that people opposed to this idea have brought up. So it is pretty hard to get the Roman Empire to indemize the Gauls in France.

However, there are cases where crimes that modern countries that still exist to this day still affect people who live to this day. Moreover, in some cases the countries are still benefiting from past crimes. Then some kind of redress should be considered. Such as with the situation of Chile and its Native Americans.

I will respectfully disagree with Pinguin. In Latin America, your geneological tree is not the most important aspect that determines ethnicity. To put it more bluntly, Mestizos, or mixed Indian and Spaniards, are not the same as Native Americans.

The modern mestizos or criollos that run Latin America happen to be the group that commits crimes againsts Native Americans and benefit from them.

The modern Latin American states, like Chile or Mexico, should redress the constant crimes that they commit against Native Americans.

They should not be put in a cultural reserve since they are not a dying species. These are cultures that have survived 500 years of colonization. They don't need any help to survive.

What they do need is justice in a dignified manner. That means that in Mexico existing groups should be granted legal autonomy. In Chile, the Chilean government should give back the stolen land given to Germans.

Originally posted by hugoestr ... I will respectfully disagree with Pinguin. In Latin America, your geneological tree is not the most important aspect that determines ethnicity. To put it more bluntly, Mestizos, or mixed Indian and Spaniards, are not the same as Native Americans. The modern mestizos or criollos that run Latin America happen to be the group that commits crimes againsts Native Americans and benefit from them.

Originally posted by JanusRook In Chile, the Chilean government should give back the stolen land given to Germans. Not without irony, but way to be an 'indian giver'. Those german settlers legitamately have claim to the lands they occupy. Certainly the Chilean government stole the land from the Mapuche but they gave that land to the Germans. It would be like someone stealing a car and giving it to you, and then you find out 5 years later it's stolen and you have to give it back. Meanwhile all this time you've worked and repaired the car, put in a new radio, etc. and now their telling you it's not your car, when you've obviously put more effort into improving it. That doesn't seem very fair either. The modern mestizos or criollos that run Latin America happen to be the group that commits crimes againsts Native Americans and benefit from them. This reminds me of the story of Liberia, where former US black slaves went to Monrovia and proceeded to oppress the local African minorities forming a caste system of American blacks on the top and African blacks on the bottom. This goes to show what may be moral in one persons eyes is immoral in anothers.

Hi, Janus,

You know what? If I buy a stolen good, unknown to me, the government may just take it away from me and give it to the legitimate owner. It sucks, but that is right.

Moreover, if I squat on land in the U.S., I can improve it all what I want, and it is still not mine. It may not be fair, but it wasn't fair of me to settle in the land in the first place.

Also, my understanding was that it was given to Geman companies, not German immigrants. In that situation it is like the U.S. leasing land to a corporation to exploit the land. Those leases expire or can be revoked. If necessary, the lands can be bought back to be given to the legitimate owners.

Your second point is strange, since my point is that opression is opression, no mater who is doing it. That applies to all people.

Originally posted by JanusRook Oh, okay that changes everything then, see in my head I imagined old wild west style ranchers and homesteaders settling land that the Chilean sold to individuals.

Edited by pinguin - 23-Jan-2008 at 21:05

Unfortunately, despite my very convincing letter I wrote , Kevin Rudd just recently apologised for the Australian nation to the Aboriginal people. While I agree wrongs were committed in the past, I believe the concept of ancestral blame is nonsense. An apology made by anyone other than the person responsible is meaningless. Not only this, but by apologising he just made modern Australia 'accountable' in the eyes of the public.

I reject the whole concept of collective guilt, period. A German born in 1945 cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust. Living Euro-Americans are not responsible for the atrocities our ancestors inflicted on the Native Americans and Africans. What is past is past, we should not be pointing fingers and blaming modern people for the sins of their ancestors. Instead we should be asking "where do we go from here?"

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by Odin I reject the whole concept of collective guilt, period. A German born in 1945 cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust. Living Euro-Americans are not responsible for the atrocities our ancestors inflicted on the Native Americans and Africans. What is past is past, we should not be pointing fingers and blaming modern people for the sins of their ancestors. Instead we should be asking "where do we go from here?"   Individuals may be innocent of the crimes of the past, but societies aren't. The government that exterminated American indians is the same that exist today. In the case of the holocaust, the society is still the same that existed 60 years ago.

No it isn't the same. The particular ruler, who maybe gave orders, maybe not is looong dead.
And Spain is a constitutional monarchy today, so the government is different. In fact, it changes every few years.

And I've got a question if you don't mind: which native American tribe do you come from?

And one more question. If you say that individuals are innocent but societies aren't, then who's gonna pay it?...The individuals are innocent so their taxes are to remain untouched.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko ... And I've got a question if you don't mind: which native American tribe do you come from?

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by Slayertplsko And one more question. If you say that individuals are innocent but societies aren't, then who's gonna pay it?...The individuals are innocent so their taxes are to remain untouched. Pay for what? Of course certain reparations can be made with surviving people in marginal conditions. But how you pay for those millions of people Europeans killed and that left no descendents? Of course, Europeans have not been the single genocidal people in the planet. Perhaps mongolians have the record.

Then, what do you want those countries to do??