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Ancestoral blame and moral judgements

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    Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:23
Originally posted by cola

Does it eaven bother you to see how inconsistent and full of double standards your posts have been on this topic?

Let me get this clear.
According to you the modern day south americans are not to be held accountable  though some of their ancestors treated the natives injustly.
The people who are to be held accountable for the injustices are of course none other than the modern day spaniards, whose ancestors did not migrate to south america and did not treat the native americans injustly or rather treat them at all.
And nowadays this lack of injust treatment towards the native americans is forgiven but not forgotten?
 
Inconsistent? Never.
 
One of the reason our ancestors married Amerindians was to have the right to be here. So we do have it and period.
 
The spanish crown is guilty of the conquist was done. How you can blame the descendents of the conquestadors these days, five centuries later, when we know they are at once descendents of the victims and the victimaries... Got it?
 
It is different in North America or Australia where the invaders and the invaded are from different stock, even today.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 20-Jan-2008 at 20:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:28
Originally posted by Paul

... 
Doesn't explain how you want to do it in Chile. You keep bringing this up post after post. The second someone asks you to elaborate you run and hide.
 
How will the redistribution of the wealth work in Chile?
 
 
Pretty well, thanks. Since the addoption of the Milton Freeman's Free Market theories by the military gorillas in the 80s, the country started to develop fast. Today people live quite a lot better and the last shanty town is going to dissapear during this decade.
 
Chile is doing quite well, actually, particularly when we compare with the leftist oriented countries we have around.
 
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:33
So the way you would redress what you call "land grabs" earlier, is by applying Milton Freemean's theory to the market place.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:40
Originally posted by Paul

So the way you would redress what you call "land grabs" earlier, is by applying Milton Freemean's theory to the market place.
 
If you are talking about the Indigenous conflicts for lands, the solution is simple. The state has to bought the lands from colones and wood logging companies and gave it back to the legitimate owners. That's exactly what is happening in the Mapuche territories that were invaded by the Chilean army during the 19th century.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 21:37
Who counts as a Mauche Indian?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 21:48
Originally posted by Paul

Who counts as a Mauche Indian?
 
Mapuche Indians are technically and legally the Natives that live in the region called of "the Araucania", 800 kms south of Santiago. They speak Mapudungun and kept most of theirs culture intact. Now, most Chileans do have certain degree of Mapuche ancestry but not necesarily from that region where Mapuches live today. In the past, most Mapuche people assimilated to the Hispanic "tribe" and they lost theirs culture. That's the case of the Picunches (or Northern Mapuches) of the place where I live, that are "extinguished" in theory but are our ancestors in practise.
 
In short, Average Chileans are circa 25% Amerindians, so Mapuches have not the monopoly to "Indianness". Theirs rights are real in theirs southern territories of course, but in here, in the Aconcagua valley were I live, local people is more entitled to the land than them.
 
Got it?
 
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 21:55
Nope?
 
If a person was half Mapuche and half Spanish. Do they count as a Mapuche?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 22:03
Originally posted by Paul

Nope?
 
If a person was half Mapuche and half Spanish. Do they count as a Mapuche?
 
Half Mapuches, at least, have admixture with Europeans. They are Mapuches because they preserve language, culture, and family relations, otherwise would be considered average "Hispanics" (average Chileans). As the matter of fact, some (not all) Mapuches look pretty European looking because some have German and Brit blood, because historical circumstances that are long to explain here..
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 20-Jan-2008 at 22:06
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 06:03
You touched upon something earlier that caught my eye. So let's see if i am understanding you correctly, in what you had mentioned earleir? (Alert: Hypothetical scenario is being launched)
 
If i were to move to Chile, and let's say, an American or European woman were to move there at the same time as i do. Let's also say, fate were to bring us together at the airport and we quickly developed a deep relationship for one another and eventually end up wanting too get married a year or two later, and eventually settling down in Chile. (An additional side fact, is that race had absolutely nothing to do with our decision, we just happened too have clicked extremely well!) Now here is the main question to the scenario, if i am understanding you: Would we eventually end up being completely ostracized from everything in Chilean society simply because we didn't choose any of the local variety, because of something as innocent as love at first sight, you know... that being the work of fate itself? (End of Scenario)
 
Does that question make any sense to you?
 
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 06:06
One of the reason our ancestors married Amerindians was to have the right to be here.


I sincerely doubt that that thought ever entered the mind of an early Spanish colonial. This is probably more accurate....
                "Well glad we beat those savages in the hills today, I'm glad my father managed to drive away those bandits now we can finally farm our land in peace. I'm also glad Isabella agreed to marry me, I think she is pretty. I'm really glad she became a good Christian instead of staying with her bandit cousins in the hills."

Again I sincerely doubt they had to justify themselves being there because back in their time there was no political correctness, so just by being there they had their justification.

They are Mapuches because they preserve language, culture, and family relations, otherwise would be considered average "Hispanics"


So could an Italian go and live with the Mapuche, speak Mapudungun, wear Mapuche dress and be friendly with his Mapuche neighbors and claim to be Mapuche himself, since by your criteria all that is required is language, culture, and relations. Which honestly I would agree with, and was the case with many Northeastern tribes of the US such as the Iroquois who would regularly adopt into the tribes people with no Iroquois blood whatsoever.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by JanusRook

...
I sincerely doubt that that thought ever entered the mind of an early Spanish colonial. This is probably more accurate....
                "Well glad we beat those savages in the hills today, I'm glad my father managed to drive away those bandits now we can finally farm our land in peace. I'm also glad Isabella agreed to marry me, I think she is pretty. I'm really glad she became a good Christian instead of staying with her bandit cousins in the hills."
 
Nope. You are projecting British and Dutch colonial mentality. In fact, the only problem with Indians many settlers that marry Indian women had is that relatives were fooling around all the day long LOL
To get the idea, Spaniards classified the Indians in good and bad people. They were in good relations with the first and in pretty ugly terms with the second.
 
Originally posted by JanusRook

...
...
So could an Italian go and live with the Mapuche, speak Mapudungun, wear Mapuche dress and be friendly with his Mapuche neighbors and claim to be Mapuche himself, since by your criteria all that is required is language, culture, and relations. Which honestly I would agree with, and was the case with many Northeastern tribes of the US such as the Iroquois who would regularly adopt into the tribes people with no Iroquois blood whatsoever.
 
Yes, some people did. Mapuches were fierce, though, and you have to be really crazy to go alone to symphatize with them. Some did, anyways. By the way, one of the specialities of Mapuches was to capture European women, which the usually picked from the attacks to the missions which happened regularly. They captured the nuns and make them full functional women Wink


Edited by pinguin - 21-Jan-2008 at 13:12
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 13:45
Originally posted by Panther

If i were to move to Chile, and let's say, an American or European woman were to move there at the same time as i do. Let's also say, fate were to bring us together at the airport and we quickly developed a deep relationship for one another and eventually end up wanting too get married a year or two later, and eventually settling down in Chile. (An additional side fact, is that race had absolutely nothing to do with our decision, we just happened too have clicked extremely well!) Now here is the main question to the scenario, if i am understanding you: Would we eventually end up being completely ostracized from everything in Chilean society simply because we didn't choose any of the local variety, because of something as innocent as love at first sight, you know... that being the work of fate itself? (End of Scenario)
 
Does that question make any sense to you?
 
 
On the contrary. In our culture, integrating foreigners is seen as good manners. You will be expose to local culture and traditions and will have the chance to be one more between all the rest. Only those groups of people that ostracized by themselves -I mean, that don't want to become mainstream- will have problems in the hispanic culture.
 
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  Quote cola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by pinguin

Inconsistent? Never.
One of the reason our ancestors married Amerindians was to have the right to be here. So we do have it and period.
The spanish crown is guilty of the conquist was done. How you can blame the descendents of the conquestadors these days, five centuries later, when we know they are at once descendents of the victims and the victimaries... Got it?
It is different in North America or Australia where the invaders and the invaded are from different stock, even today.


I am not blaming anyone.
What I am intrested is how you can blame present day Spaniards if their ancestors, let alone them selves, had nothing to do with the conquest of south america.
Keep it real
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:37

Originally posted by cola

...

I am not blaming anyone.
What I am intrested is how you can blame present day Spaniards if their ancestors, let alone them selves, had nothing to do with the conquest of south america.

Of course, today Spaniards are innocent. However, from the historical point of view, Spain will have forever the responsability for all the bad and all the good that did in the Americas.

Call it Karma if you wish, but it will remain there, in our history books at least.



Edited by pinguin - 21-Jan-2008 at 14:39
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  Quote cola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 20:26
What you are saying that present day Spain is guilty but not its people?

Does that eaven make sense if we are talking about inherited guilt to the present day generation?
Even if you ignore the fact that the south americans are decendants of the people who committed the injustices against the natives.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 20:48
Originally posted by cola

What you are saying that present day Spain is guilty but not its people?
Does that eaven make sense if we are talking about inherited guilt to the present day generation?
Even if you ignore the fact that the south americans are decendants of the people who committed the injustices against the natives.
 
Let's try one more time, something that I have already said:
 
(1) Spain is a country and a people. As you can see, I blame that country decisions of the past, not the people or government of today.
 
(2) Is impossible to blame South Americans for crimes made by our Spanish ancestors on our Native Ancestors. You cannot punish the left hand for what it did on your right hand. We are both the Spanish and the Indians simultaneously. Don't you get it?
 
(3) You can blame each nationality of South America on the crimes of Indian minorities, and we do blame them. For instance, Mapuches in Chile has people support on theirs cause against the state and the powerful wood companies.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 21:04
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Paul

Nope?
 
If a person was half Mapuche and half Spanish. Do they count as a Mapuche?
 
Half Mapuches, at least, have admixture with Europeans. They are Mapuches because they preserve language, culture, and family relations, otherwise would be considered average "Hispanics" (average Chileans). As the matter of fact, some (not all) Mapuches look pretty European looking because some have German and Brit blood, because historical circumstances that are long to explain here..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So a half Mapuche is a still a Mapuche. This thn raises the question, when does someone stop being Mapuche. 25%? 10%? 1%? or are they all Mapuche too?
 
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 22:40
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Panther

If i were to move to Chile, and let's say, an American or European woman were to move there at the same time as i do. Let's also say, fate were to bring us together at the airport and we quickly developed a deep relationship for one another and eventually end up wanting too get married a year or two later, and eventually settling down in Chile. (An additional side fact, is that race had absolutely nothing to do with our decision, we just happened too have clicked extremely well!) Now here is the main question to the scenario, if i am understanding you: Would we eventually end up being completely ostracized from everything in Chilean society simply because we didn't choose any of the local variety, because of something as innocent as love at first sight, you know... that being the work of fate itself? (End of Scenario)
 
Does that question make any sense to you?
 
 
On the contrary. In our culture, integrating foreigners is seen as good manners. You will be expose to local culture and traditions and will have the chance to be one more between all the rest. Only those groups of people that ostracized by themselves -I mean, that don't want to become mainstream- will have problems in the hispanic culture.
 
 
So what you are basically saying is, if a person, couple or group chooses too isolate themseleves from any society they are in, then there might be trouble? I can understand that.
 
But, what if they accept most of the culture and traditions, meanwhile rejecting the rest? Or they reject all of the culture and traditions, wanting too keep their own; "BUT"... they remain law abiding citizens and remain very friendly and respectful to the culture of the locals as well as their traditions. Not wishing too change anything about the country, but to simply live their lives as peacefully as they can, as was well as wishing no harm upon anyone surrounding them in Chile?
 
Would any of that be a problem in Chile? Or would any of that be frowned upon by your society?


Edited by Panther - 21-Jan-2008 at 22:42
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 23:26
Originally posted by Paul

... 
 
So a half Mapuche is a still a Mapuche. This thn raises the question, when does someone stop being Mapuche. 25%? 10%? 1%? or are they all Mapuche too?
 
 
A person stops to be Mapuche when he denies its roots. If a person of Mapuche ancestry hide its roots and is ashamed of it (sometimes changing the last names) then they aren't Mapuches anymore.
 
The same counts for Chileans (and Hispanics in general) when they migrate to the U.S., Europe or Australia). If their parents are Chileans but the kids don't speak the language and don't care about own "sacred" land LOL, in that case they are not one of us anymore.
They are just another foreigner more.
 
The 1/4, 1/8, 1/2048 stuff is culturally American. In here in the south, for both Mapuches and Hispanics, what counts is what you have in your heart.
 
Originally posted by Paul

... 
But, what if they accept most of the culture and traditions, meanwhile rejecting the rest? Or they reject all of the culture and traditions, wanting too keep their own; "BUT"... they remain law abiding citizens and remain very friendly and respectful to the culture of the locals as well as their traditions. Not wishing too change anything about the country, but to simply live their lives as peacefully as they can, as was well as wishing no harm upon anyone surrounding them in Chile?
 
In Chile is impossible to live isolated from the rest. No matter how immigrants try the society force them to assimilate. In some critical cases they can't stand it and leave.
 
Originally posted by Paul

... 
Would any of that be a problem in Chile? Or would any of that be frowned upon by your society?
 
No problem with Chile, except that we believe if someone comes here to live is because want to become one of us. Otherwise, why should come in the first place, anyways?
 
In other words: In Rome do as Romans do, and in Chile as Chileans do LOL
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 21-Jan-2008 at 23:33
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 00:22
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Originally posted by Paul

... 
But, what if they accept most of the culture and traditions, meanwhile rejecting the rest? Or they reject all of the culture and traditions, wanting too keep their own; "BUT"... they remain law abiding citizens and remain very friendly and respectful to the culture of the locals as well as their traditions. Not wishing too change anything about the country, but to simply live their lives as peacefully as they can, as was well as wishing no harm upon anyone surrounding them in Chile?
 
In Chile is impossible to live isolated from the rest. No matter how immigrants try the society force them to assimilate. In some critical cases they can't stand it and leave.
 
Originally posted by Paul

... 
Would any of that be a problem in Chile? Or would any of that be frowned upon by your society?
 
No problem with Chile, except that we believe if someone comes here to live is because want to become one of us. Otherwise, why should come in the first place, anyways?
 
In other words: In Rome do as Romans do, and in Chile as Chileans do LOL
 
 
 
 
I'd don't recall making either of these two comments
 
 
 
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