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Slayertplsko
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Topic: Ancestoral blame and moral judgements Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 19:33 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
... And I've got a question if you don't mind: which native American tribe do you come from?
| As all Chileans of the central valley of the Aconcagua, I have Picunche ancestry, but not exclusively. |
So you most likely have Spanish blood as well...if we use your kind of generalisation and collective quilt, then you're the resposible one as well. Before you ask, I'm Slovak, with Hungarian and Czech blood. And nope, I don't blame Hungarian nation for the pogroms of the past.
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 01:45 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
... So you most likely have Spanish blood as well...if we use your kind of generalisation and collective quilt, then you're the resposible one as well.
Before you ask, I'm Slovak, with Hungarian and Czech blood. And nope, I don't blame Hungarian nation for the pogroms of the past.
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Of course I also have Spanish ancestry and mostly. The first Spaniards that arrived to the Americas commited many crimes and produced lot of injustices. However, it is hard to build a case against them for genocide. After all, the largest majorities of Native Americans these days live in Hispanic America, and not in places colonized by Portugueses or Brits. In any case, both European immigrants and indigenous people allied together against the crown and got rid of the Spaniards, and the shame with them, during the Independence wars.
Although we have many many things to be ashammed of, the scale of our local crimes in Latin America is really very small if you compare with what has happened in more developed regions.
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 01:47 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
... Then, what do you want those countries to do??
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Accept the past and be better in the present and in the future. Above all, don't blame Germans for everything, because the crisis of WW II was the result of centuries of bigotry shared by all the people of the old continent.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:42 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Accept the past and be better in the present and in the future. Above all, don't blame Germans for everything, because the crisis of WW II was the result of centuries of bigotry shared by all the people of the old continent. |
How exactly do you want them to do it?? to accept it??
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 09:16 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Of course I also have Spanish ancestry and mostly. The first Spaniards that arrived to the Americas commited many crimes and produced lot of injustices. However, it is hard to build a case against them for genocide. After all, the largest majorities of Native Americans these days live in Hispanic America, and not in places colonized by Portugueses or Brits.
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Like in the Caribbean? Never seizing with the mud-slinging, are we?
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 10:15 |
Were these alleged crimes contrary to the law that existed at those times ?
Note no State ever makes any decisions. The people who are in power at the time make decisions.
I am not responsible for what my ancestors did.
We may disapprove of the behaviour of our ancestors, we are not responsible for them
I think it would be difficult to impossible to find any country in the world which has not had previous inhabitants killed, dispossessed or merged with.
How far back is this OK ?
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Leonidas
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 13:06 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Originally posted by pinguin
Of course I also have Spanish ancestry and mostly. The first Spaniards that arrived to the Americas commited many crimes and produced lot of injustices. However, it is hard to build a case against them for genocide. After all, the largest majorities of Native Americans these days live in Hispanic America, and not in places colonized by Portugueses or Brits.
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Like in the Caribbean? Never seizing with the mud-slinging, are we?
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good pick up. Also pinguin how would you describe the more recent conflict in Guatemala? a particular quote from this resource tells the tale of a racist war conducted by Spanish speakers (supported by the USA) on the native Americans.
One of the most salient and divisive social constructs in Guatemala
today is the issue of race. Ladinos (mestizo) make up approximately 40%
and Native Americans make up the other 60% of the population. Ever since
colonial times, Spaniards and Ladinos alike have subjected Native Americans
to legal, social, political, and economic discrimination. Since these Maya
cultures do not speak Spanish, ladino landowners often forcibly evict them
from their plots of land and take over. Rigoberta Menchu herself describes
how local plantation owners did this to her village community, forcing
them to leave their land after tricking her father, an illiterate, Quiche-speaking
village leader, into signing a document in Spanish binding the natives
to leave the land after two years of occupation (Burgos-Debray, p.103-4).
She also describes the blatant racism practiced against her and her family
both in Guatemala city and the fincas (plantations).
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from www.genocidetext.net/personal_journey.htm
In neighbouring Guatemala, the label of genocide was hard to dispute. Between 1978 and 1984, under successive military regimes, a holocaust was inflicted
upon the native Indian population of the Guatemalan altiplano
(highlands). The region was home to one of the most resilient patchwork
of indigenous peoples
remaining in the Americas. The ferocity with which the Guatemalan
government -- again supported by the US, which had installed the army
in power in 1954 -- fought guerrilla rebellion by attempting to "drain
the sea" of popular support. They killed as many as 200,000 people,
razed some 600 villages, and herded
hundreds of thousands of survivors into concentrated settlements under
ubiquitous military surveillance (see Chapter 3).
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more detail in this reporti can keep going on awful Latin treatment of natives from the central america to the south and it isn't old news.
Edited by Leonidas - 24-Jun-2008 at 13:09
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Odin
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 14:10 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Odin
I reject the whole concept of collective guilt, period. A German born in 1945 cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust. Living Euro-Americans are not responsible for the atrocities our ancestors inflicted on the Native Americans and Africans. What is past is past, we should not be pointing fingers and blaming modern people for the sins of their ancestors. Instead we should be asking "where do we go from here?" |
Individuals may be innocent of the crimes of the past, but societies aren't.
The government that exterminated American indians is the same that exist today. In the case of the holocaust, the society is still the same that existed 60 years ago. |
Society is simply sum of the people that make it up, beliefs only exist within individuals, not as some essential force permeating society. Different people = different society. And German society certainly isn't the same society that existed in 1938.
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee
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Odin
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 14:14 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
... No it isn't. Do you have even a slightest idea how ashamed those people feel?? I know a few Germans myself and speak their language.
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Why to blame Germans only for a crime that was the product of European mentality as a whole? Racism and racial supremacy wasn't invented in germany but it was the result of the colonialist mentality. After all, pogroms and genocides of Jews and other minorities were a tradition in Europe since the Middle Age. Besides many other crimes Europeans practised during centuries.
In my oppinion the "shame" must be shared by all Europeans. |
You are REALLY oversimplifying things.
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 16:20 |
I think words like genocide and holocaust get thrown about too easily. These days, 2 people die; a bloodbath, 10; a massacre, 50; genocide.
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 16:26 |
American continent was not so peaceful before European conquest, in the Pinguin's vision just us, Europeans, must be blamed, Amerindians are in the same measure guilty of atrocities. In every actual living man genealogy are a lot of killers. The same abberant logic, Suuni and Shiia kill each other and West is quilty. Same logic of Pinguin.
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 01:30 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
... Like in the Caribbean? Never seizing with the mud-slinging, are we?
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Do you mean the "Black legend"? History and genetics talks more of intermarriage and overcrowding than anything else.
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 01:38 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
...good pick up. Also pinguin how would you describe the more recent conflict in Guatemala?
a particular quote from this resource tells the tale of a racist war conducted by Spanish speakers (supported by the USA) on the native Americans. ...
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The Civil War in Guatemala was nothing particularly extraordinary in those dark days when the United States hijacked our militaries for its cause. They were trainned to torture and to kill in the infamous School of the Americas.
Millions died in all Latin America thanks to that gently influence of our "cousins" of the north, and the local militaries they bough.
Oh Lord, we love Sammy, our Uncle.
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by Sparten
I think words like genocide and holocaust get thrown about too easily. These days, 2 people die; a bloodbath, 10; a massacre, 50; genocide.
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When we say genocide, we are talking 0f 6 million Jews, 2 millions of Amerindians or 1 million tutsis. Not just 10 people.
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 01:43 |
Originally posted by Richard XIII
American continent was not so peaceful before European conquest, in the Pinguin's vision just us, Europeans, must be blamed, Amerindians are in the same measure guilty of atrocities. In every actual living man genealogy are a lot of killers. The same abberant logic, Suuni and Shiia kill each other and West is quilty. Same logic of Pinguin. |
Nobody invited Europeans or Africans to the Americas. It was the Europeans who decide to do whatever they wished with the New World. Who else to blame?
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Tyranos
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 02:05 |
There was no law to stop Europeans from going to the new world, moreover most Amerindians didnt have a concept of land ownership. Some of them fought, but they lost, Europeans won, and your a product of that Pinquin. Today they just use our own laws to make money from us, rather like Blacks do in the USA, or Jews from Germans ect.
Edited by Tyranos - 25-Jun-2008 at 02:05
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 08:18 |
The Civil War in Guatemala was nothing particularly extraordinary
in those dark days when the United States hijacked our militaries for
its cause. They were trainned to torture and to kill in the infamous
School of the Americas.
Millions died in all Latin America thanks to that gently influence
of our "cousins" of the north, and the local militaries they bough.
Oh Lord, we love Sammy, our Uncle.
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I bet CIA is building the favelas as well.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 25-Jun-2008 at 08:20
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 09:57 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Richard XIII
American continent was not so peaceful before European conquest, in the Pinguin's vision just us, Europeans, must be blamed, Amerindians are in the same measure guilty of atrocities. In every actual living man genealogy are a lot of killers. The same abberant logic, Suuni and Shiia kill each other and West is quilty. Same logic of Pinguin. | Nobody invited Europeans or Africans to the Americas. It was the Europeans who decide to do whatever they wished with the New World. Who else to blame? |
Those who did it. Not those who have nothing to do with the crimes. Those who did it are dead of course, so to get it out of your system you could, let's say, go and piss on their grave...what do you say?? Would it finally satisfy you?? Do you realize that but for them, you wouldn't be alive today?
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 10:04 |
"go and piss on their grave..."
The best way to solve the problem. A pilgrimage at the grave of Columbus. What a business. Let's do it and take the money of entire South America.
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 10:07 |
Wait a minute. You say you're mostly of Spanish ancestry. Those people living in Spain are mostly of Spanish ancestry as well (they have some Arabic ancestry quite possibly, and Gypsy ancestry...those two are not European).
You, despite having Spanish blood, don't feel resoponsible/ashamed for the crimes commited by MORE YOUR ancestors then the ancestors of Spanish - Why?? Probably because you don't agree with what was being done, and you somehow connected yourself with something called 'American', which I don't really understand what it is to stand for.
You say that those people in Spain (or Europe) bear the guilt. Do you really think that they appreciate the genocides committed by the two Pizzaroes?? No they don't. So you're pretty much the same, I don't see any difference between Spanish people and Chilean people: both mostly of Spanish ancestry, both disagree with the crimes of the past.
Why then are you innocent and those people/societies/nations/whatever are not??!
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