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Women in Greece challange Medieval law

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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Women in Greece challange Medieval law
    Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 03:28
Greek women flout medieval entry ban in monastery
9 January 2008 | 11:52 | Source: Beta, AFP
THESSALONIKI -- A 1,000-year-old ban on women in the Greek monastic community of Mt. Athos crumbled, albeit briefly, yesterday.

A mixed crowd of local villagers marched into the enclave to protest against the monks' alleged encroachment on public land, a protest leader said.

Around 500 women and men from villages in the Halkidiki peninsula in northern Greece took a few steps into the territory of the self-governing community of some 20 monasteries before a police cordon stopped them, police and the organiser said.

"It was a symbolic act, we have broken the 'avaton'," said protest organiser Kyriaki Malama, referring to the 1045 AD decree that forbids women access on grounds of impurity.

"We demand that the Greek government and the European Union intervene to stop the monasteries from acting as if they are above the law."

The demonstrators belong to a local community group locked in a court dispute with five of the monasteries over ownership of some 8,300 hectares of forest and land which they say belongs to their villages.

"The monks' mission is to be a religious order, not one that does (real estate) business," Malama said.

Police stated that there is a possibility of filing criminal charges against six women for breaking the laws of encroachment on monastery property. According to Greek law, women trespassing on Mt. Athos can, if found guilty, faces sentences of in between 12 months and two years in prison.

Several feminist groups in Greece and other countries have tried to have the medieval law nullified.

The European Parliament asked Greece to make gender rights equal in 2002 and 2003, both times with no results.
     
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=46794
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That this law continues to be enforced is unbelievable. Its great that these women challenged it so nicely. more power to them! The main reason for thee protest may not have been to challenge the law, but the symbolism was just as important.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 10-Jan-2008 at 03:29
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 05:21
If the monks have unjustly encroached on public land, then the protest may have been justified. If the purpose of the protest was solely to oppose the prohibition against women entering the Holy Mountain, then it was not. The prohibition is obviously recognized by the government, and it has practical as well as theological implications.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 05:53
If the Catholic Church allows women to have monasteries then why can't women following the Orthodox creed take monastic vows?
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 06:24
They can and do.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 06:36
Ok then what is this about... AFIK monasteries have been seperate... that's the whole point of monastic life...
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 06:43
On Athos only men's monasteries exist.

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Victory needs none.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 07:09
I don't see how this will bring about one, but if there is a want for a convent then one should be set up.


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 08:51
they cant be established on Mount Athos.

The European Parliament asked Greece to make gender rights equal in 2002 and 2003, both times with no results.

 AKAIK, this territory doesn't even fall under direct government control, and they are wasting their time in thinking they can influence the church, which is ment to be beyond government inteference. IIRC not even female animals are not allowed, though exceptions were made on the non female ban for humanitarian reasons but im not sure of the details.

This is just protesting for the sake of it, while i might not understand why females are banned, or even disagree with it (if i did), i would totally respect this sacred and ancient orthodox sanctuary for what it is and move on to something more important like; equality of wages, maternity leave and much more relevant issues closer to home.

edit: improved a poorly written post



Edited by Leonidas - 10-Jan-2008 at 10:00
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 15:21
Well said, Leonidas. Clap
 
You do recall correctly that female animals are not allowed, except for hm... cats and chickens, I believe (the former to keep down vermin, the latter to provide eggs for iconography). I had also heard, at some point, that Athos had temporarily lifted the ban to provide a haven for refugees, but I do not recall when or why. I'm sure you could find it somewhere.
 
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 16:23
The main character of Mount Athos is just this interdiction to women acces. If women would enter there, there will be no more Mount Athos.


There are such many places were a women haven't been, why should she go to Athos?

The nuns can make a similar law region if they want 'equal rights'.

And by the way, is known that the feminists are ugly, frustrated women.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 17:20
They just want to take more land to make it farm land and build houses. Bloody villagers.......
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 18:53
Female POWER!
 
Down with men!
 
Now seriously.... It is a bit too much of a trifle to start protesting over, but a law that forbids women to go somewhere wased on nothing more than the fact that they are female (and more disgustingly, becuse females are 'impure') is pretty damn sad.
 
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

And by the way, is known that the feminists are ugly, frustrated women.
 
You sound a bit scared... or frustrated maybe?


Edited by Aelfgifu - 10-Jan-2008 at 18:55

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 19:07
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Female POWER!
 
Down with men!
 
Now seriously.... It is a bit too much of a trifle to start protesting over, but a law that forbids women to go somewhere wased on nothing more than the fact that they are female (and more disgustingly, becuse females are 'impure') is pretty damn sad.
 
Well, there is also the practical consideration of the effect that a sudden influx of women would have on the passions of the monks. The idea is that the mountain has been consecrated to the Theotokos.
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

The nuns can make a similar law region if they want 'equal rights'.
 
Aye, that they can and do -- excepting, of course, the priest who must come to celebrate the divine liturgy.
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

And by the way, is known that the feminists are ugly, frustrated women.
 
Frustrated? Yes, and sometimes -- although not in this particular instance -- with good cause. Ugly? Ugly? In addition to being untrue, that statement is most uncharitable. I wonder how the Athonite monks would feel if they read it.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 10-Jan-2008 at 19:08
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 19:07
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Female POWER!
Now seriously.... It is a bit too much of a trifle to start protesting over, but a law that forbids women to go somewhere wased on nothing more than the fact that they are female (and more disgustingly, becuse females are 'impure') is pretty damn sad.

You sound a bit scared... or frustrated maybe?


There are thousands of places where the access of people is interdicted (private places etc), so it's not big deal that a place is interdicted for women. Is not because women are impure, is just a tradition. For similar reasons, there are catholic monasteries where the access of common people is completely prohibited.

As for feminists, just search images with Google and you'll understand:

http://images.google.ro/images?q=feminist&svnum=10&um=1&hl=ro&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Female POWER!
 
Down with men!
 
Now seriously.... It is a bit too much of a trifle to start protesting over, but a law that forbids women to go somewhere wased on nothing more than the fact that they are female (and more disgustingly, becuse females are 'impure') is pretty damn sad.


It is also sad to see holly sanctuaries , which exist for centuries, to be attacked by some land hangry villagers and a few bunch of women who do not know where the real problem between the sexes exists.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by ako

Well, there is also the practical consideration of the effect that a sudden influx of women would have on the passions of the monks.
 
Yes... Although they should be able to contain themselves, considering as the women have already been ascertained as ugly by default in this thread. WinkLOL
 
I need some clarification. Are we talking about the monastery itself (buildings and immediate surroundings), or simply the lands in posession of the monastery? That would make a difference...
 
I have never heard of monasteries banning visitors of the other sex at all... is that specific to the Orthodox Church?
 
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Female POWER!
Now seriously.... It is a bit too much of a trifle to start protesting over, but a law that forbids women to go somewhere wased on nothing more than the fact that they are female (and more disgustingly, becuse females are 'impure') is pretty damn sad.

You sound a bit scared... or frustrated maybe?


There are thousands of places where the access of people is interdicted (private places etc), so it's not big deal that a place is interdicted for women. Is not because women are impure, is just a tradition. For similar reasons, there are catholic monasteries where the access of common people is completely prohibited.
 
Places are forbidden to certain persons for a certain reason, most certainly. Places that are forbidden for half the worlds population based on medieval notions of impurity is not quite the same as access to the men's restrooms. Traditions are no excuse for discrimination.
 

As for feminists, just search images with Google and you'll understand:

http://images.google.ro/images?q=feminist&svnum=10&um=1&hl=ro&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20
 
 
Hm... I do not really see anything... except for one single individual. And even if she is an feminist, and if she were the only feminist on the earth, your link here stall does not prove your point... whatever your point was.
 
 
  
Originally posted by spartakus

few bunch of women who do not know where the real problem between the sexes exists.
really... and where exactly would that be, pray tell....LOL


Edited by Aelfgifu - 10-Jan-2008 at 19:38

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 20:13
Originally posted by Aelfgifu




Places are forbidden to certain persons for a certain reason, most certainly. Places that are forbidden for half the worlds population based on medieval notions of impurity is not quite the same as access to the men's restrooms. Traditions are no excuse for discrimination.




Orthodox monasteries only in very few cases are not allowing persons of opposite sex (for example, in Romania there are only two). Mount Athos is such an exception. And this isn't made because women are impure but because it was felt necesary to exist a place on earth were the necesity and benefits of abstinence to be emphasized in a stronger way.

Promoting the access of women in such places, or female priesthood and other inovations is not a manifestation of justice but a useless mania. The ones defending su8ch things doesn't see the human aspect, they are fixed on some stereotypical reasonings.


The Holy Mount Athos was established as a place where only men are allowed due to a tradition which is very important for the Orthodox believers. Abolishing such things would efectively eliminate the most important symbol of Eastern Christianism and would have desastruous consequences for the Orthodox Church, actualy would mean its end. The priests, hyerarchs, monks and nuns would abandonate the public manifestations of their cult, including the church services and would adopt an individual form of living their religion with the permanent feeling of the imminent end of world. Because is prophetized that when the women would enter Athos will begin the end of the world.





Although they should be able to contain themselves, considering as the women have already been ascertained as ugly by default in this thread.


Hm... I do not really see anything... except for one single individual. And even if she is an feminist, and if she were the only feminist on the earth, your link here stall does not prove your point... whatever your point was.


Search for the next pages. Or better think logical: what reason would have a beautiful woman, married and satisfied with her life, to participate at feminist activities?


And one more thing about feminism.

I have read today something on a Romanian blog, the guys was saying that nobody is born woman or man. The gender, sexual orientation and being man or woman are three different things. We are born with a gender but we may decide if we become male or female and if we prefer men or women. So, the cause of feminism is false.


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  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 20:27

Well the women  can have a look  to Mount Athos

from internet

http://www.inathos.gr/athos/en/



Edited by Antioxos - 10-Jan-2008 at 20:27

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 20:29
Originally posted by Antioxos

Well the women can have a look to Mount Athos


from internet


http://www.inathos.gr/athos/en/




There is also a ship that goes along the coast two times a day at distance of some hundreds meters.


And I want say that visiting monasteries is a thing which should be drasticaly reduced or even interdicted in many cases, indiferently of gender. Because people are chosing the life of nun or monk for living isolated from society, not for seeing each day crowds of visitors photographying and filming, laughing etc.


Edited by Menumorut - 10-Jan-2008 at 20:36

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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 20:37
Originally posted by spartakus

few bunch of women who do not know where the real problem between the sexes exists.

really... and where exactly would that be, pray tell....LOL
[/QUOTE]

oooh! She got you on that one Sparty!
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