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Muslim Theology and the Word.
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Akolouthos View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 17:33
Originally posted by JanusRook

But then again, Jesus is only the shell, so the mind of Jesus (the physical) doesn't exist, only the mind/spirit of the Word that was him.


No no, Jesus is not just a shell because that seems to deny his humanity. His mortal form still required, sleep and food, he still suffered from illness, his heart was still beating blood throughout his body, he still was held back by his human mind.

Christ's spirit and God's spirit are only one. Christ still had a human brain, which could not possibly hold all of God's knowledge. Thus as his brain grew so did his understanding of the world. I mean we're not born with knowledge of Calculus but we can still discover it later in life.

Jesus' mind did exist separate from God's (does God even have a mind?) but they shared one common "soul".

Hm. I think we could all do with a good lesson in basic Chalcedonian Christology...


Well please then Akolouthos, enlighten us because I've kind of been using my own theories as to the nature of God when discussing the Trinity since I'm trying to reconcile apparent contradictions in the fully divine/fully man debate.
 
When I said "all", I meant me too. Wink I can always stand to brush up a bit. Give me some time to review the definition, and I'll try to get back with you tonight. I will say this: you are right; Jesus is most certainly not a shell wherein the Logos is contained.
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 21:20

Originally posted by Voice of Reason



Now as for God being militarastic that is untrue, God allows for a believer to protect himself if he is attacked; however, all forms of agressive violence are forbiden and are sin (i.e. Attacking for no reason, as is continuing to fight once the attacker whom you were defending yourself from sues for peace. Basically all forms of violence unless you are protecting your own life are a sin and are forbiden)

 

So, are the extremist Islamics such as those who did many of the bombings on the towers and are often considered terrorists going against the Quran?



Yes; like in other religions, and in Christianity, the ones that transgress against God's commandments are against God. Thus they are going against what the Qu'ran teaches.

 

I think you would find this website interesting. Read the Open Letter in it. This Open Letter was signed by numerous Islamic figures throughout the world ranging from American Muslims, European, Mid-East, etc

 

www.acommonword.com/

 

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

 

[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

 

 

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

 

 


In Surah 9 Ayat 4 we find a good example of God being peaceful, and also commanding his followers to follow a peaceful life rather than the stereotypical "smithe them down."


"But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous."

 

Does this only apply to those whom you have an alliance with or are in a Muslim state? Many of the versus that you gave to read refer to not harming Non-Muslims when in a Muslim state, and not harming those Non-Muslims (or Pagans as it was said much, would there be considered a difference between Christians, Mormons, ect... and Pagans in Islam?) whom you have made an alliance with.

 

 

Yes, that applies to not hurting anyone at all. Defending oneself is allowed, however attacking ANYONE AT ALL and aggressing is forbidden and a sin.

 

 

 

 

 

But thank you very much! it was informative, and i'm really considering reading the Quran soon.. i think it'd be interesting and i'd learn alot, you've really peaked my interest!Smile

 

 

 

Which translation though. Not all are so good. The thing is that translating from Arabic to English is very hard. Some words in Arabic have multiple meanings in English, and vice versa. I forgot the two more recent translations, our fellow forum member Seko has mentioned two of them recently.
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 14:39
Lol, well i dont know anything other than English and Spanish for the moment... and my Spanish is still rudimentary in what it would take to read something like the Quran in Spanish!
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 14:42
Originally posted by JanusRook

No no, Jesus is not just a shell because that seems to deny his humanity. His mortal form still required, sleep and food, he still suffered from illness, his heart was still beating blood throughout his body, he still was held back by his human mind.

 
Yea, i talked to my father about hte issue, he knows alot about the Bible and much more, he's been teaching for years. He seems to have gone in the same direction you have in that Jesus didn't know at first (perhaps when he was 12 he came to the understanding, my dad also brought to my awarness that his parents knew, john the baptist knew, and his aunt/uncle knew so they would have told him eventually) - Yes, it wasn't quite right for me to advocate that the human aspect of Jesus never existed (although i wasn't saying that hte mortal shell wasn't human and didn't have blood pumping through it, ect... that's what i was saying)

 
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 14:44
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Hm. I think we could all do with a good lesson in basic Chalcedonian Christology...

-Akolouthos
 
what exactly is that? I'd have to admit and plead ignorance i have no idea! Lol - please get back to me on what that is also... thanks!Smile
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 15:29
Originally posted by Voice of Reason

Lol, well i dont know anything other than English and Spanish for the moment... and my Spanish is still rudimentary in what it would take to read something like the Quran in Spanish!

http://brainbowpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1

Try this one.
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For a Muslim, the Trinity sounds complex and useless.
 
When you believe in ONE (just one, no trinity) everything is just that much easier.
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 16:56
Originally posted by Mughaal

For a Muslim, the Trinity sounds complex and useless.
 
When you believe in ONE (just one, no trinity) everything is just that much easier.
 
Is it? Well surely idolatry is even "easier" than believing in either Christ or Islam -- after all, you can actually see an idol. I, however, do not plan on practicing my goldsmithing anytime soon simply as a matter of "convenience".Wink
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 18:32
that his parents knew, john the baptist knew, and his aunt/uncle knew


Actually I didn't think John knew until Jesus came to be Baptized by him, of course Mary and Joseph knew but they probably didn't tell him until just prior to him getting lost in the temple (around age 12 like you suggest). I was under the understanding that the parents of John the Baptist probably died shortly after John was born (they were old remember) so how could they have known, my memory may be lacking on the story but when the angel told Elizabeth she was pregnant she merely told her Mary was pregnant too.

For a Muslim, the Trinity sounds complex and useless.


Well that's because it has been a topic of debate for two thousand years, unlike the Quran the Bible is not the end all of knowledge (in fact the Bible is seriously lacking in most theological concepts), we as Christians also have what is called the 'Living Church' this is the accumulated knowledge God has imparted upon us through the hundreds of years the Church has been in place and represents all of our Tradition.

Simplistic does not necessarily facilitate better, would you say that it would be better to be a bacteria then a human?
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 18:43
Simplicy is better so there isnt theologic confusion. Instead of breaking apart into hundreds of sects, no one still understanding exactly who of the three controls what or has what responsibility.
 
Idolatry, maybe easier, but helluva lot dumber. Unless you can commit to worshipping a ceramic monkey god, or a wooden totem of a snake, knowing all you know of biology and maths....
 
We also have ideas of kalam, ijtihad, etc...but we arent confused as to whom we are all doing kalam & ijtihad for; or specifically which one of the three. Not to mention not everyone has the time to wonder over the nature of God; but universally when you mention God all humans understand "Greater/Fantastic Power or Being" no matter what they worship.
 
So yes, easier can mean less philosophic headache; and sometimes it just may make more sense.
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 19:51
Mughaal,
 
Every religion has sects. Ours tend to be institutionalized because the nature of God's Church is institutional. Islamic sects tend to be less so, and focus more on interpretation because of the textual nature of Islam. Furthermore, in its own way, Islam itself is a "sect", much like Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Gnosticism, etc. -- at least from a Christian perspective. And as for making sense: I feel that being content with what -- or rather Who -- has been revealed is the proper way to do so. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
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Originally posted by Akolouthos

Mughaal,
 
Every religion has sects. Ours tend to be institutionalized because the nature of God's Church is institutional. Islamic sects tend to be less so, and focus more on interpretation because of the textual nature of Islam. Furthermore, in its own way, Islam itself is a "sect", much like Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Gnosticism, etc. -- at least from a Christian perspective. And as for making sense: I feel that being content with what -- or rather Who -- has been revealed is the proper way to do so. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
 
Islam does not have sects. Religion sects condemned in Quran crystal clear, end of story ; )
 

"Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with God, then He will inform them of everything they had done."

[6:159]

"Turn towards Him and be dutiful to Him; be firm in devotion, and do not become an idolator,

or one of those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have."

[30:31-32]
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 03:46
Originally posted by Scorpius

 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Mughaal,
 
Every religion has sects. Ours tend to be institutionalized because the nature of God's Church is institutional. Islamic sects tend to be less so, and focus more on interpretation because of the textual nature of Islam. Furthermore, in its own way, Islam itself is a "sect", much like Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Gnosticism, etc. -- at least from a Christian perspective. And as for making sense: I feel that being content with what -- or rather Who -- has been revealed is the proper way to do so. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
 
Islam does not have sects. Religion sects condemned in Quran crystal clear, end of story ; )
 

"Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with God, then He will inform them of everything they had done."

[6:159]

"Turn towards Him and be dutiful to Him; be firm in devotion, and do not become an idolator,

or one of those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have."

[30:31-32]

 
LOL
 
Oh come now. First, as has already been noted in this thread, every religion has adherents who act contrary to the way things are supposed to be. Second, Islam certainly does have sects -- unless you want to lump the Wahabis together with the moderate Muslims of the West (or perhaps with the Sufis?).
 
It would be best not to "end" the story before the conclusion. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 04:00
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
LOL
 
Oh come now. First, as has already been noted in this thread, every religion has adherents who act contrary to the way things are supposed to be. Second, Islam certainly does have sects -- unless you want to lump the Wahabis together with the moderate Muslims of the West (or perhaps with the Sufis?).
 
It would be best not to "end" the story before the conclusion. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
 
Akolouthos, when you are talking about Islam, you are talking about people you heard/know/read etc.. and how they live and you based your conclusion on this information and I guess that is where our opinions differ.
 
When I talk about Islam, my only source is Quran alone (as it should be). And it is written in Quran that I cannot have a sect :) It is end of the story, there are no what ifs? or come ons!, or what about these people call them wahabies, etc .. ;)
 
Let me put this way:
 

"Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts."

[42:14]



Edited by Scorpius - 07-Feb-2008 at 04:05
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 04:40
Originally posted by Scorpius

Akolouthos, when you are talking about Islam, you are talking about people you heard/know/read etc.. and how they live and you based your conclusion on this information and I guess that is where our opinions differ.
 
This is where our opinions differ, but I think you will see that it is not I who have a problem with objectivity here.
 
When I talk about Islam, my only source is Quran alone (as it should be). And it is written in Quran that I cannot have a sect :) It is end of the story, there are no what ifs? or come ons!, or what about these people call them wahabies, etc .. ;)
 
Your "only source is Quran alone"? And how, praytell, does your claim to this differ from that of a man strapped with bombs in a marketplace? Because you are right and he is wrong? Possibly, but the very fact that the two of you disagree to such a great degree means that there are, in fact, sects in Islam. Wink It is the same with Christianity, never fear. As an Orthodox Christian, of course I feel that the Orthodox Church is correct, and that those sects outside of the Church are deeply mistaken. Still, they do exist, and so we call them "sects".
 
Let me put this way:
 

"Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts."

[42:14]

 
While you're at it, you might want to look up these little gems:
 
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. [John 17: 20-23]
 
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [Eph 4: 1-6]
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 07-Feb-2008 at 04:41
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Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
Originally posted by Scorpius

Akolouthos, when you are talking about Islam, you are talking about people you heard/know/read etc.. and how they live and you based your conclusion on this information and I guess that is where our opinions differ.
 
This is where our opinions differ, but I think you will see that it is not I who have a problem with objectivity here.
 
I do not have  a problem with objectivity.
 
I have a problem with the definition of the word Islam used here.
Islam means submission, a total surrender of oneself to God and hence the Muslim means a submitter and moreover we are talking about muslims. Muslims have only one reliable source for religion and that is the Quran. The Quran says muslims cannot have a sect. It does not matter how people practice their religion, it is the definition that matters.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
(1) Your "only source is Quran alone"? And how, praytell, does your claim to this differ from that of a man strapped with bombs in a marketplace? Because you are right and he is wrong? (2) Possibly, but the very fact that the two of you disagree to such a great degree means that there are, in fact, sects in Islam. Wink
 
You are mixing apples with God knows what else here ;)
(1) It is not about being right or being wrong. It is about what is written in the Book.
It is crystal clear that you cannot go berserk and explode or hijack planes and kill thousands. So why people go and explode ? It is a mystery to me. But again why satan did what he did ? It is even a bigger mystery to me. How can he be so unintelligent ( ok, what I mean is idiot ;) ).
 
(2) We are talking about Islam. What is the only reliable source of Islam accepted by all muslims ?. The Quran. What does the Quran says about the issue? - You cannot have a sect.
 
More clearly, what does the word intelligence mean ?
 
It means many things with respect to many different frames it is defined.
For instance,Christian Science defines it as "the basic eternal quality of divine Mind".
 
it is also defined as " information concerning an enemy or possible enemy or an area; also : an agency engaged in obtaining such information" in a different frame
( source: webster).
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
While you're at it, you might want to look up these little gems:
 
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. [John 17: 20-23]
 
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [Eph 4: 1-6]
 
 
That is beautiful. So there are no sects but unity in Christianity in despite of what people are practising today. And that is already what I am saying about Islam. Thanks for the information.
 


Edited by Scorpius - 07-Feb-2008 at 06:10
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I have a problem with the definition of the word Islam used here.


Before we get into a semantical arguement based on subjectivity. Let me give you the definition we use for Islam here. Islam is the religion based on the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and Muslims are those who recognize themselves as following Islamic practices. Thus Shia and Sunni are in but Sikhs and Bahais are not. This is the definition I would like everyone to use for Islam as I don't want an arguement on what is and isn't considered Islam.


That is beautiful. So there are no sects but unity in Christianity in despite of what people are practising today. And that is already what I am saying about Islam. Thanks for the information.


Yes, according to your logic if there are no sects in Islam then there are no sects in Christianity. However in practice we all know this to be different....
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Originally posted by JanusRook


This is the definition I would like everyone to use for Islam as I don't want an arguement on what is and isn't considered Islam.
 
I am having difficulty understanding the reasoning behind this request . It is good to discuss that for a better understanding of the concept before you build things on top of it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 07:29
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Scorpius

 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Mughaal,
 
Every religion has sects. Ours tend to be institutionalized because the nature of God's Church is institutional. Islamic sects tend to be less so, and focus more on interpretation because of the textual nature of Islam. Furthermore, in its own way, Islam itself is a "sect", much like Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Gnosticism, etc. -- at least from a Christian perspective. And as for making sense: I feel that being content with what -- or rather Who -- has been revealed is the proper way to do so. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
 
Islam does not have sects. Religion sects condemned in Quran crystal clear, end of story ; )
 

"Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with God, then He will inform them of everything they had done."

[6:159]

"Turn towards Him and be dutiful to Him; be firm in devotion, and do not become an idolator,

or one of those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have."

[30:31-32]

 
LOL
 
Oh come now. First, as has already been noted in this thread, every religion has adherents who act contrary to the way things are supposed to be. Second, Islam certainly does have sects -- unless you want to lump the Wahabis together with the moderate Muslims of the West (or perhaps with the Sufis?).
 
It would be best not to "end" the story before the conclusion. Wink
 
-Akolouthos


"Moderate Muslims of the West." I have a big problem with this term for technical reasons and for authentic. Does this denote that only, and only Muslims in the West, and only then again those who are "Moderate(What that meeans I have to find out too...)" are somewhat progressive, whereas, all the Muslims in the rest of the World are un-Moderate Ouch?

That makes no sense to me, when for example the newer English translation of the Qu'ran is done in part by a Turk... and when the Open Letter I just pasted here earlier is signed in majority by Muslims throughout the Muslim world; who aren't in the "West."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 07:36


Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
Your "only source is Quran alone"? And how, praytell, does your claim to this differ from that of a man strapped with bombs in a marketplace? Because you are right and he is wrong? Possibly, but the very fact that the two of you disagree to such a great degree means that there are, in fact, sects in Islam. Wink It is the same with Christianity, never fear. As an Orthodox Christian, of course I feel that the Orthodox Church is correct, and that those sects outside of the Church are deeply mistaken. Still, they do exist, and so we call them "sects".
 




Well, the man strapped with bombs is the same one bombing an abortion clinic, thus outside the religion, a flawed view on religion does not make him a sub-sect of the main body of believers who despite some differences see themselves as Muslims overall through their belief in God, and through their acceptance of the Qu'ran as the word of God ( alongside the previous two of course) Therefore, you have a single body of believers, personal theology is one thing. That is the case with Islam the Qu'ran is there to be interpreted on the level of individual spirituality, but also congregatinally if you will in temrs of prayer or the ummah. However, to call a suicide bomber belonging to a sect is very different to me; he has stepped out of the Qu'ran once he commits that act.






(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

(4:30) Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.





Edited by es_bih - 07-Feb-2008 at 07:52
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