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Muslim Theology and the Word. |
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Omar al Hashim 
King 
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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 Topic: Muslim Theology and the Word.Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 06:38 |
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No I wouldn't say that. The metaphors and metaphors, the smilies are smilies, the stories are stories, and the bits presented literally are supposed to be taken literally. Don't take a simile literally, don't take a literal as a metaphor. For example, the Ayat I posted above is supposed to be taken literally.
I remember thinking about some low-church protestants I know, that in their pattern of thought if you started with supernatural beings - say greek gods, to get to their understanding of God what you had to do was abolish all the various greek gods, except one, and give that one the power of all the others. In their view, God was on the supernatural plane. In my view if you start with the Greek pantheon, you need to abolish it completely, and then have a greater force fully integrated with the natural realm, and superior to the supernatural. Of course this only applies to me and them, not either faith.
I think that is not possible without breaking the Nicean Principles. For non-trinitarian christians, like the JWs, this could be possible. But for the Orthodox, Catholic, Mainstream & American protestant groups this is impossible. |
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Guests
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Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 09:17 |
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Ok, I phrased that wrong. It is not the literal word of God as in the sense that a Salafist or in an other sense a Southern Baptist would say about the Bible. In other words it is God's revelation unto Mankind that needs to be interpreted and understood in context, some of it is literal such as do not kill, do not..., however, a lot of it is metaphorical and story or simile based as well. |
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JanusRook
Sultan 
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 18:47 |
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Who determines how to take which Ayats as literal and which as not? Aren't those opinions open to interpretation by various muslim groups? Because if different schools understand the Quran differently doesn't this mean that the Ayats in the Quran are open to interpretation and thus could accommodate Christian theological presumptions.
This is my understanding of how Islam began in the Arabian penninsula with the head of the Pantheon (Allah) who is related to the Mesopotamian concept of *El (King of the gods type deity) just taking in all of the powers and responsibilities of the various lesser Arabian deities. Thus the Arabian pagans stopped worshiping their various cults and focused instead on worshiping "Allah". |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 23:28 |
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Most of the time I dare say it is pretty obvious. When it isn't (say on Hijab) you get multiple opinions. |
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JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 06:26 |
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But then again what's obvious to one person isn't obvious to others. Like for me it's obvious that we need to have universal health care in the US but for others they don't see it like that. Likewise to me it's obvious that Al-Qaeda terrorists destroyed the twin towers on 9/11 but to another person it's obvious it was a plot by the American government. Again I ask, is there an end all source (like does the Quran explain some of itself), or are most things in it free to interpretation thus all Muslims are free to follow whichever mullah they like the sound of? |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke 
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 06:50 |
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Hello to you all
First of all, about El. El is the linguistic origin of both Yehewa and Allah since both are semetic languages. El was not the chief diety, he was the only diety (since he created all the other dieties), after that other dieties were added for many reasons like cultrual exchange with other civilizations, like the Jews who worshiped Baal as mentioned in the Quran and the Bible. The traditions tell us that early Arabs were monthiest untill the Romans came to the levant when some of them introduced Jupiter (Hubal) as the local agent for God (they only worshipped these dieties because they thought their prayers are answered faster if they did some sacrifices for these minor dieties but God or Allah was still the supreme and only capable diety). Islam just refined the old practices and restored strict monotheism.
As for the interpretation of the Quran or tafseer. It is and entire discipline on its own. There are some 50 interdisciplines called Quranic sciences that any guy who wants to interpret Quran must be knowledgeable in them to interpret correctly.Not all verses (like the Mutaa marriage verses) are to be taken at face value because some are just in the Quran for textual reasons because Hadiths have cancelled the ruling that existed in the Quran. That is why some see what seem to be contradictions in the Quran while they are not, certain verses came later and cancelled the ruling of earlier verses.
AL-Jassas
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 15:05 |
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The problem is not for God. It's for anyone who believes that God is finite. Humans may go through different states in their spiritual journey. When we ceased to live as conscious beings we have no say in our destiny. On the other hand, God is everlasting. Infinite. The Eternal. The Creator.
[ 2:255] "GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, |
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 15:14 |
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There exists many believers of diverse stripes in any religion. The majority of current muslims do share the same views as the majority of Christians regarding supernatural miracles in my opinion. My presumption is that what we now call supernatural may eventually turn out to be natural once we focus on scientific plausibility instead of calling an unknown entity a miracle. My personal quest is to look at how the unique events of the Bible and Quran came about and explore a deductive explanation for their basis.
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Ahmed The Fighter
Chieftain 
Lion of Babylon Joined: 17-Apr-2005 Location: Iraq Online Status: Offline Posts: 1106 |
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Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 19:43 |
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Janus if we want to understand the whole issue we shout point Where Islam and Christianity Agree and Differ on Jesus.
Points of agreement:
1. Islam advocates the holiness of Jesus. As a matter of fact, it is an essential part of the Islamic teaching to revere Jesus and to believe in his holiness, and that he lived in this world as a pure person free of any sin. From the Qur'an:
"When the angels said: 'O Mary! Surely God gives thee good news of a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, Son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter, and of those who are highly accepted by God.' " 3:45
2. Islam declares the holiness of Mary, the mother of Jesus. No Muslim can doubt the decency and purity of Mary. She, according to the Qur'an, had been the most noble among the women of the nations:
"And when the angels said: 'O Mary! Certainly God has chosen thee and made thee pure and has preferred thee above the women of all nations. 'O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).'" 3:42-43
3. Islam declares that Jesus was miraculously born from a virgin mother with no father. From the Qur'an:
"And mention Mary in the book. When she withdrew to a place east of her family. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared to her as a man in all respects. She said: 'I seek refuge in God against you if you are righteous.' He said: 'I am only a Messenger of Thy Lord to grant to you a pure boy.' She said: 'How can I have a son, and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?' He said: 'So (it will be). Thy Lord says: "It is easy for Me; and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter decreed. Then she conceived him; and withdrew with him to a remote place. And the throes of childbirth drove her to the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: 'Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten. So a voice came to her from beneath her: 'Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath thee. And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be pleased. Then if thou seest any human, say: "Surely I have vowed a fasting for the sake of the Beneficent, so I will not speak to any human today." 19:16-26
4. The Qur'an attributes to Jesus many of the miracles which are mentioned in the Gospel. According to theQur'an, Jesus was empowered by God to cure the sick, revive the dead, and make the blind see:
"... and He (God) will make him (Jesus) a messenger to the children of Israel (saying): 'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord that I fashion for you, out of clay, the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by permission of God. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead by permission of God. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store in your houses. 'Lo! Herein verily is a sign for you, if ye are to be believers.' " 3:49 .
In addition to this, the Holy Qur'an ascribes to Jesus a miracle that is not recorded in the gospels: Jesus spoke clearly while he was in the cradle:
"Then she came to her people with him, carrying him. They said: 'O Mary, thou hast indeed brought a strange thing. O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother an unchaste woman.' But she pointed to him. They said: 'How should we speak to a one who is a child in the cradle?' He said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; and He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and purity so long as I live. And to be kind to my mother; and He has not made me insolent, un-blessed. And Peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised to life (in the Hereafter).' " 19:27-33 Edited by Ahmed The Fighter - 14-Jan-2008 at 19:50 |
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid 
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Ahmed The Fighter
Chieftain
Lion of Babylon Joined: 17-Apr-2005 Location: Iraq Online Status: Offline Posts: 1106 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 19:58 |
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Points of Disagreement:
1. Although Islam accepts the holiness of Jesus, it denies his divinity. According to the teaching of Islam, Jesus is no deity. He is not God, nor is he united with God. He is worthy of reverence and great respect, but he is not worthy of worship. Islam is uncompromising in its Monotheism. God is only One, and there is no God but He, the Almighty, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent, the Infinite in life, knowledge, and power. Jesus is not ever-living. He was born more than 2000 years ago, and according to the gospels, he died after a very short life. He is not almighty because he was a subject of persecution; nor was he infinite. He could not be the Creator of the world because the world is over four billion years old, while he was born more than two thousand years ago. He is not worthy of worship because he himself was a humble worshipper of God. 2. Jesus, according to the teaching of Islam, is not a son of God. God does not have any son or child, because He is above that. Bodily parenthood is inconceivable in His case because He is not physical. Spiritual parenthood also is not conceivable, because He is the Creator of every spiritual and material being. The Qur'an is clear on this point: "And (they) impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. Glorified be He and high exalted above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him). The Originator of the heavens and the Earth! How can He have a child when there is no consort for Him, when He created all things and is Aware of all things? Such is God, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He taketh care of all things." 6:100-102 3. Islam denies the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus did not die on the cross. The Qur'an is clear on this point. "And because of their saying: 'We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, the Messenger of God.' They slew him not nor crucified him, but appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof but the pursuit of a conjecture; for certain they slew him not, but God took him up to Himself. God is Ever-Mighty, Wise." 4:157-158 A Christian, believing in the crucifixion of Jesus, would have a hard time reconciling two of the principles in which he believes, namely: Jesus is God, and Jesus was crucified. A crucified person cannot be God because he is unable to protect himself, let alone be almighty. A Muslim, on the other hand, does not have such a problem. He believes that Jesus is a prophet and no more. A prophet may be persecuted and crucified, because a prophet is not supposed to be almighty. Although Islam does not have the problem of contradiction, it has solved the problem which it does not have. Jesus was not crucified. God had protected him. 4. Islam disagrees with Christianity on the Doctrine of Redemption. The Doctrine of Redemption is based on the Doctrine of the Original Sin: that mankind had been condemned by God because of the sin of Adam and Eve which was consequently inherited by their children. Islam denies the whole Doctrine of the Original Sin; God did not condemn mankind because a sin was committed by a couple at the beginning of time. (This will be made clear in the following inquiry.) There is no original sin; therefore, there is no need for redemption to mankind out of a sin that did not exist Edited by Ahmed The Fighter - 14-Jan-2008 at 21:15 |
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 05:56 |
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First off Ahmed thanks for posting those major points, I agree with your agreements and find your disagreements to be well thought out. I'll go into detail with some of them though.
I will not argue that Jesus is a mere man, because he must be in order to take on original sin, and thus free mankind from such a sin. Because Islam does not have original sin, they do not need a Christ to free the world from damnation. Also Jesus being a man is not eternal as God is. However in Christianity Jesus and God are of one "essence" or in a more open sense they share the same "soul". Thus Jesus existed "before" his birth as a part of God. The "Son" portion of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all existed at the beginning of time. The Son had yet to be born though and the Holy Spirit had yet to come upon this world.
Except then you get to the part of did God create himself? Of course he didn't because he always existed like the Son has always existed. The Son is as uncreated as God but comes forth from God as an arm comes forth from your body. Christ's spiritual nature is infinitely older than his physical being. Also, why does the Quran have a problem with Jesus being crucified? The Bible is clear as is Josephus' secular record of the event. So it would seem the Quranic account is misinformed, is their a religious rationale behind this? Oh and Christians too believe that Jesus was taken up into heaven body and spirit, just three days after his death. And Christ did not die on the cross because he failed. His goal was to die in one of the most humiliating and painful ways. Because in Christian theology the weight of original sin is so great that even the most intense death could only begin the process of salvation, and that only God himself was powerful enough to cleanse this sin from the world. It is precisely because God is All-Powerful that he had to come down as man and die on the cross, it is his greatest triumph in Christian eyes that over ultimate sin and death. Again glad to have such great dialogue amongst you all.
How does one qualify to be considered knowledgeable enough to interpret the Quran correctly, and once qualified will all students of the Quranic sciences interpret the same way? |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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Ahmed The Fighter
Chieftain
Lion of Babylon Joined: 17-Apr-2005 Location: Iraq Online Status: Offline Posts: 1106 |
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Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:34 |
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Thank you Janus for your response,I want to know something first Is Jesus the God himself?or his son?, cause you confusing me by calling him the Son then you wrote they share the same soul and that is mean Jesus is the God in Phyiscal shape.
actually even though we don't beleive in the original sin but we beleive that Jesus will come back before the day of the Resurrection to free the world from damnation with Imam Mahdi I think you know that.
There is no problem my friend,it is just a beleive.
I know that, but it is just a contradiction and I can use to my advantage(later I ll post about the contradiction between how jesus refers to himself in the Bible).
if Jesus removed the stone that would be Physical work not divine,and if Jesus taken to haeven spirit only or with the body,as you said he created the heaven and as we all know God don't need the heaven,God created it to reward the human beings.
so if Jesus taken to heaven he is certinaly not God what you think?.
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 04:40 |
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Well, it's kind of difficult to explain because it's essentially both. See in the Trinity there are three "persons" who share one "essence". That essence is what Christians worship, but we recognize three different manifestations of God. All Persons in the Trinity are equal parts of the One God. This is what makes Jesus, God. Now is Jesus God's son in the biological sense? No, of course not since God does not have any dna he cannot give dna to create a child. Is Jesus a mortal then that was granted divinity and assumed into God thus being an adopted son of God? No, because this would mean that at some point Jesus was a separate being from God which Christians believe he isn't. Is Jesus just spiritually a piece of God and this makes him the Son of God? No, because this diminishes him, Jesus is always God and not merely a portion of God. When it really comes down to it I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning for the names of the persons in the Trinity nor when they first were used. I think The Father is meant to show that God is omnipotent as he lords over us as a father would, The Son is meant to show that person proceeds from the Father (as stated in the Nicene Creed) so if there is a Father, there must be a Son. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it though so don't take my word for it. I just know that Jesus isn't a son in the natural sense which has caused a lot of confusion over the years.
Actually I knew Jesus would return in Islamic teaching but I didn't know the reason why. Also, if Jesus is to come to free the world from damnation, does that mean that no one will be in Paradise until that day? Or does it mean those that have yet to get to Paradise will have their souls freed to join in Paradise?
So then could Muslims choose not to believe this and believe he died on the cross? I mean aren't there stories in Islam where God brings dead men back to life (A Quranic Lazarus perhaps?)
No, Jesus was 'Assumed' (taken) into heaven so that he could take his appointed place "seated at the right hand of the Father". Jesus went into Heaven body and spirit, we don't know what happened to his body but we know that his spirit descended back onto earth to bring mens hearts to God. Also heaven in early Christianity wasn't really a reward for the righteous (this is a philosophy taught thanks to the idea of predestination). In orthodox Christianity heaven is merely being united with God, whereas hell is being separated from God. No where in the Bible is heaven described so we cannot be sure what it is like. This is why in Christianity God is in heaven, because heaven is pretty much like God holding hands with everyone. God doesn't need heaven but we need God so he provides himself because he loves us. |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 04:52 |
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In order to become a scholar of the Quran* you must do an islamic studies degree at a university. The most famous universities in this field are Medina, Cairo, Istanbul and historically Timbuktu and Bukhara. All students of Quranic studies do not interpret in the same way. I should say that interpret gives a incorrect meaning. The Quran is not written in the same manner as the Bible, and exogenesis is less important. *and therefore have a better chance of interpreting the Quran correctly, although that is no guarentee that one will - some verses are meant for future generations |
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Ahmed The Fighter
Chieftain
Lion of Babylon Joined: 17-Apr-2005 Location: Iraq Online Status: Offline Posts: 1106 |
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Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 20:33 |
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Well,If you don't mind give me a clear answer,if we want to keep the debate active and objective the other side(me) should know so I can give you the appropriate answer.
you wrote All Persons in the Trinity are equal parts of the One God,
in second statement you said Jesus is always God and not merely a portion of God.
in your first statement you parted God(we will talk later about how these parts working together)then you attached Jesus to God and denied the parts theory,do you find this a contradiction like me or not?
God is the most wise,and he choose Jesus,I think we both(muslims,Christians)beleive in Armagadon and the world will become so evil,and we wait for a savior who is Jesus himself.
I quote from Imam Jaafar Al-Sadiq:
Jesus the son of Mary is the Spirit of Allah and His Word. He was thirty-three years old in the world. Then Allah raised him to heaven. He will descend to the earth and it is he who will kill the Antichrist (Dajjl.)
(Tafsr al-Qum, 2, 271)
No,the answer in the quotation above.
Same Idea with small diffirences in specifice detail,what you said mean the Good person will be in Heaven or he is,the evil in hell.
but we beleive God is every where not only in Heaven.
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 05:57 |
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It is nigh impossible to give a clear answer because it is a mystery of the church. "It [the Vatican Council] lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest." However I will answer you as to the dogma of the Trinity, this is straight from the horses mouth so to speak so whatever is in this quote supercedes anything I have said.
Oh don't get me wrong, we Christians also believe God is everywhere at all times. Sorry I didn't mean to say he was exclusively in heaven.
But Omar has stated that the Quran is open to interpretation, and some verses are for future generations, also from the verse you quoted that doesn't contradict the Christian version. Actually this quote:
Has no contradictions between the Christian version and the muslim version if we are to interpret Allah as 'the Godhead'. |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 08:14 |
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It isn't that much open. Some things are open to confusion/interpretation, most things in the Quran are not, and are very clear. This is a case where the meaning is clear to the any layman. Most of the disagreements in the Muslim world are over Hadiths not Quran. Also the above quote is Tafsir (exegesis) not Quran itself. |
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HEROI
Baron 
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 10:53 |
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Hi guys let me make a point regarding Trinity.
Let us for a moment take the example of the SUN.
The SUN is 1, but to us it represents 3 elements.
Light, Heat, And phisical presense.
This three elements are all equall to 1 Body,THE SUN.
Now. The Father,The Son and the Holy Spirit are three elements of 1.The god
That i think would be a very simple and logical explanation of the Trinity.
Hope this would help.
The only difference beetwen the Islam and Christianity is the death of Jesus and his status in life.
Acording to Islam the bible is a holy book and whoever belives in is goin to heaven just as the muslims,but the christians are mislead,and mistaken about Jesus.
Acording to Islam the difference is that Kuran is the last mesage from God,but that dont mean that Bible was not gods mesage,thats clearly stated in the Kuran.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Scorpius
Shogun 
Joined: 11-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 215 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 03:51 |
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Universally wrong.
There is no such knowledge, information that says Jesus will return in Quran.
BUT; there is the information of a messenger that will come and confirm the truth that is already with us.
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Scorpius
Shogun
Joined: 11-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 215 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 04:19 |
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(1) That is because you have wisdom and your mind is not twisted.
"He has sent down this book which contains some verses that are straightforward and basic to the book, and others allegorical. But those who are twisted of mind look for verses metaphorical, seeking deviation and giving to them interpretations of their own; but none knows their meaning except God; and those who are steeped in knowledge affirm: "We beleive in them as all of them are from the Lord." But only those who have wisdom understand."
[3:7] Translation by Yusuf Ali
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