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creationism or evolution
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Poll Question: which do you believe is right and why
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Knight
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: creationism or evolution
    Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:17

Even if evolution is correct, it would not disprove a God, it would only show that He didn't create us like is the common belief. Such a being could still have a very high role in the creation of the universe, and created the right habitat for that life to have evolved.

Also, many Christians, and others, are too complacent and do not want to be confronted with many facts - for many people of all religions, ignorance is bliss.
 
With knowing the will of God. If we could talk to Him (prayer) and if the Bible truly was guided by Him, then we would know his will. People think of Him as having human emotions. If we were truly created, it wouldn't be that way, in truth it would be the other way around. Humans would have God-like emotions. (Being created in His image)
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:21
Originally posted by beorna

Perhaps I should explain it a bit. I don't want to say christians are stupid and Darwinists clever. Please don't understand it like that. What I cannot understand is, if you have the choice to know something or to believe it, why so many people don't want to know. I spoke with so many christians about their believe and I asked them so many questions and very often at the end, if I had them in the trap, they said: "I don't want to think about it. I believe what I believe and I don't want to know anything else." I told you above, man has walked a long way from his origins, we explored so much, we don't live in a flat world, the sun isn't running around the earth and the stars aren't fixed at a roof. People in the Age of Mose didn't know that. Why hasn't god told them a story about the world they were able to understand? Why can't God have spoken to Darwin: Show my people how I really do my job. It's time to let them know something about evolution.? Why do only these preachers and priests know what god wants? Jesus said: Those who want to be the first, will be the last. So perhaps they just pretend that god is with them?
 
 
I'd like to have a conversation with you beorna Smile I'd like to know your opinions more and the objections you have against the Bible. Emails is: -  shadow_tiger100@hotmail.com  -  If you'd be willing and wanted to add me if you have MSN Messenger Smile
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:34
Originally posted by Voice of Reason

Even if evolution is correct, it would not disprove a God, it would only show that He didn't create us like is the common belief.
It was never the intention of Science to prove anything about religion, it's to explain our world. I'd say it's more the other way around, it's Religion that always discusses whats wrong about Science, not scienctist except those with a agenda, which is a very tiny minority.
If evolution is proven to be correct though, your still left with the same evidence of a god's existence before it was, none. So whether evolution is proven correct or not, scientist didn't discover anything more then that. They are not working to find the existence of a god, or working to prove there isn't one. They have one goal in mind, and thats to show how evolution works. Only Religious people seem to want to add on this second objective to the works of evolution, that if one isn't proven then the other is, but scientist who actually do the work, have never said. That is why Science and Religion are seperated, there's to much assumption in Religion.
Also, many Christians, and others, are too complacent and do not want to be confronted with many facts - for many people of all religions, ignorance is bliss.
I think this describes much of human kind. People are alot more alike then different.
 
 
 
 
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:42
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Originally posted by Voice of Reason

Even if evolution is correct, it would not disprove a God, it would only show that He didn't create us like is the common belief.
It was never the intention of Science to prove anything about religion, it's to explain our world. I'd say it's more the other way around, it's Religion that always discusses whats wrong about Science, not scienctist except those with a agenda, which is a very tiny minority.
 
Lol, yes i know that SearchAndDestroy, i was making a comment on something said earlier by Pinguin
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 14:57
Sorry Reason, I tried looking back to see what you were responding to, but didn't find it. It became a guessing game. But I wanted to address that comment, not because you said it, but because it's the most common statement made and one of the worst assumptions that can be made. People seem to believe if there's a lack of evidence for one thing, that automaticlly makes think that their idea is correct.
It's the most common thing I see these forums on this topic. Admittedly I used to believe that the proof of evolution ment god doesn't exist. And while I still believe there isn't a god, I don't believe evolution this the ost powerful reason for it.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 14:12
Originally posted by pinguin

I read a Jehova Witness magazine on which they show Creationism can't be reconciliated by Evolutionism. They say that while creationism see Man as degraded form of the ideals fixed by god (the fall from the Paradise), evolutionism see Man just as a superb animal. Therefore, ideas like the ones of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, that evolution was driven by God are false!
 
Well, If they are right, they have actually demostrated that God don't exist Shocked
 
This is what i was replying to. That, evolution being true, would then mean that there isn't a God. Unless i've read this post wrong.
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 14:29

In my post i never said that evolution was trying to do that, that scientists were trying to do that, or that it was anyones' goal to disprove a God. Instead, i was adressing the idea, that some people do have, that evolution being correct would displace God, i dont believe we have any conflict here.
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 15:01
Like I said, I misunderstood what you said and was not trying to go against you, but a common theme I always see in these debates. That either way you say it, one without the other somehow makes one true.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 14:05
Oh, i'm sorry, i didn't read that..
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

It was never the intention of Science to prove anything about religion, it's to explain our world. I'd say it's more the other way around, it's Religion that always discusses whats wrong about Science, not scienctist except those with a agenda, which is a very tiny minority.
If evolution is proven to be correct though, your still left with the same evidence of a god's existence before it was, none. So whether evolution is proven correct or not, scientist didn't discover anything more then that. They are not working to find the existence of a god, or working to prove there isn't one. They have one goal in mind, and thats to show how evolution works. Only Religious people seem to want to add on this second objective to the works of evolution, that if one isn't proven then the other is, but scientist who actually do the work, have never said. That is why Science and Religion are seperated, there's to much assumption in Religion.
[quote]

Yes, but evolution if proven, is in contrast with the Bible, that's why the church and religion is against evolution...for, if the Bible was dictated by God, and if evolution is correct then what is the conclusion?
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 20:40
Bah, I write it in the quoteConfused

AgainConfused:
Yes, but evolution if proven, is in contrast with the Bible, that's why the church and religion is against evolution...for, if the Bible was dictated by God, and if evolution is correct then what is the conclusion?
 
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Posts: 279 		  Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 10:14
Maybe its just because I am not professionaly trained in theology, or maybe because I don't  intend to keep a closed mind but I dont see any clash between evolution theory and the Bible. In fact, Genesis made a lot more sense to me after learning about evolution.
 
 
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 13:54
Originally posted by Eondt

Maybe its just because I am not professionaly trained in theology, or maybe because I don't  intend to keep a closed mind but I dont see any clash between evolution theory and the Bible. In fact, Genesis made a lot more sense to me after learning about evolution.
 
 



God created man... I do not know the translation couse I have red  the bible in Italian and Croatian: but it says clearly that God created man...so I presume: if we were evolved the Bible is a farce - thou, whole of Christianity is a farce, so it's the church...maybe I interpreted it wrong
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 14:08
It would depend how you interpret that creation. - I'm still a proponent of the creation in the sense of "came into being" but, there could also have been the possibility of God creating the potential for man. Such as.. He created man because he made the possibility for the Earth to house life.. and then made the earths enviornment such that Natural Selection could work.
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 14:25
Originally posted by Voice of Reason

It would depend how you interpret that creation. - I'm still a proponent of the creation in the sense of "came into being" but, there could also have been the possibility of God creating the potential for man. Such as.. He created man because he made the possibility for the Earth to house life.. and then made the earths enviornment such that Natural Selection could work.


Different person different opinion Smile
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Posts: 95 		  Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 14:58

Just a thoughtSmile
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 15:23
Originally posted by Illirac

Bah, I write it in the quoteConfused

AgainConfused:
Yes, but evolution if proven, is in contrast with the Bible, that's why the church and religion is against evolution...for, if the Bible was dictated by God, and if evolution is correct then what is the conclusion?
 

Well, I have an answer and it's one of the reasons I became an athiest. It seems that religion can work it's way around problems that it's confronted with because religious meaning and stories are always interpreted in different ways, I believe thats the reason we have so many sects in the hundred or so religions. Christianity is very broken up due to interpretations, and I believe there are some sects who already accept the idea of Evolution even now.
 
So it's the religion that has to make the decision. Science will always be on the path of trying to explain the universe with facts while religion is based on faith and interpretation so it has the ability to make changes, which it has hundreds of times, right from it's beginning pretty much with the conventions.
After all, they stopped believing that the universe revolves around earth due to advancements in science, I think they'll do the same in the future.
 
Edit- You forgot the / in [  quote], thats why it quoted everything.


Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 24-Jan-2008 at 15:25
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 15:37
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Originally posted by Illirac

Bah, I write it in the quoteConfused

AgainConfused:
Yes, but evolution if proven, is in contrast with the Bible, that's why the church and religion is against evolution...for, if the Bible was dictated by God, and if evolution is correct then what is the conclusion?
 

Well, I have an answer and it's one of the reasons I became an athiest. It seems that religion can work it's way around problems that it's confronted with because religious meaning and stories are always interpreted in different ways, I believe thats the reason we have so many sects in the hundred or so religions. Christianity is very broken up due to interpretations, and I believe there are some sects who already accept the idea of Evolution even now.
 
So it's the religion that has to make the decision. Science will always be on the path of trying to explain the universe with facts while religion is based on faith and interpretation so it has the ability to make changes, which it has hundreds of times, right from it's beginning pretty much with the conventions.
After all, they stopped believing that the universe revolves around earth due to advancements in science, I think they'll do the same in the future.
 
Edit- You forgot the / in [  quote], thats why it quoted everything.


It's only a play of power. As in the medieval times they kept power thanks to their monopolistic actions, they are even today trying to keep it. And it's not religion who is against evolution, as far as I know, but the church
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 16:20
When you say Church, do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? If so, thats just one sect of many Christian Churches. Just recently the Episcopal Church had a split inside it's own sect with some wanting to allow homosexual orientated preachers into the church. This is an example of what I mean, interpretations of the bible or teachings of a said religion just keep splitting that religion as time goes on. I'm not sure there is one religion out there that has stayed consistent with itself since the very beginning.
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Posts: 526 		  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 18:42
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

When you say Church, do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? If so, thats just one sect of many Christian Churches. Just recently the Episcopal Church had a split inside it's own sect with some wanting to allow homosexual orientated preachers into the church. This is an example of what I mean, interpretations of the bible or teachings of a said religion just keep splitting that religion as time goes on. I'm not sure there is one religion out there that has stayed consistent with itself since the very beginning.


Yes, I should have specify: I meant the Roman Catholic Church. One sect, but the biggest and the only one that "has one leader", the pope. But still, the "big ones", or the most numerous sects(the ones that have more members then others) are the most noisy...in the end it's not important which sect, but the fanaticism of the sect
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