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Panther 
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Joined: 20-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
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 Topic: creationism or evolutionPosted: 17-Jan-2008 at 07:28 |
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I went with the other option and believe neither can survive without the other in the western world. Though i do sheepishly admit, i do probably lean a bit more toward creationism, though not totally disregarding the evolutionary theory. That admission won't make me very popular here!
I guess i have a hard time wrapping my tiny brain around the fact of... what was, way before our understanding of reality ever existed? Does that make any sense?
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elenos
Chieftain 
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 07:47 |
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You make perfect sense, Panther. You have grasped the great question of the ages that still continues. How can life evolve from none-life? Surely the way we percieve things makes them so real, but that is saying the life and death of man is the beginning and the end of all reality. This thought is so strong and so unversal in the human mind that whole civilzations have built up the idea of the "man in the sky" as the source of everything.
However, does that mean we are entirely living within the prison of our own perceptions? Can it be there is nothing outside what we can know about - like the ancient Greeks said "man is the measure of all things". Yet how true is that statement when placed against the breadth and depth of knowledge we know of today?
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elenos
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Panther
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Joined: 20-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 08:38 |
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Thank you elenos. As much as i enjoy science, there are some things that will always be beyond it's capability to understand or explain. At this point in human knowledge, nothing should ever be considered absolute, especially the study of the past. Equally, what we think we might know today, always stands a very high chance, more than 80%, of being revised for tomorrow's generations!
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Voice of Reason
Knight 
Joined: 09-Jan-2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 95 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 14:25 |
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Yes Panther, i totally agree. Although, i do also lean a bit more towards creation also!
 Judging from just what we know in science today, there really is no way that i can think of that could constitute for the beginning of life from non-life. I think of it as a sudden in-breeding, or however you would say it, of free will, that is, the ability to move, and decided, different from the physical laws of nature that would otherwise force an object to do something else.
But i am very excited to see what we will discover in only the next 50 years!
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Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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beorna
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Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 15:21 |
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The most interesting questing, I think, is not how life developed from non-life but how did something developed from nothing. Science can not explain it, that's true. But can a creator explain it? And if there is an creator how can we say it's what we usually call God, father or something else? Of course we can say God created everything, but is this the ultimative answer? I don't think so. I would like to know then, what created God? When I was a little boy and I heard about the space I thought it as a ball and when I heard there could be other universe I thought them as other balls aroung us. They were on a table in a room and God was looking at them. Then the question came to me: What's outside the room? So God is not the answer to our question, how something came from nothing. I don't know if we ever solve this problem and I don't know if science can do it. I am prepared to believe that there is something like God, but what is he/she or it? Perhaps God is around us and in everything, perhaps he/she/it is some kind of energie that's in all of us and in everything. But I cannot believe that such energie sends his son or any prophets to the earth or all the other believes. The gods on earth are all man-made. Creation is the fundamental christian attempt to role back the time. Science does not say there is no God, but science brings answers about things we can solve without a god. |
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Panther
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Joined: 20-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
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Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 20:12 |
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Hello beorna,
First, i should say too everyone, that i am not intentionally ignoring the evolutionary side of this discussion. Nor am i using this in anyway, as too cause anyone too convert (Like my extremely limited intelligence actually could bring that about anyways!) But beorna, you brought up some questions i would be honered too address, if you care enough to read through this post.
Now, i think everbody of faith or non-faith would like to know the answer to that question. Then again, God as the holy being exists and as i understand from reading my bible over the years, certainly doesn't have to prove anything at all to us, least of all the very existence of the holy being and how everything works. Throughout the book of Job makes that point very clear! But, that is my opinion. For alot of people, that is not a satisfactory answer. "When in doubt, rule it out" works for them and i don't hold their belief against them; It had worked for me once in the past, until powerful personal experiences have proven too me the impossibility and impractibility of ruling everything out, for the simple reason of not being able to test the unknown within the confines of a scientific lab. For me, alot of my life has to go on faith; Because so much of the existence that now currently surrounds me on a daily basis is completely, absolutely and utterly out of my control! That's not too say that i don't want to understand how things work, as my senses percieve them. For that reason alone, i am very thankful that science has helped too increase our knowledge of the pyhsical universe! I hope this helps you/anyone to understand what i am trying too get at?
That's pretty good. I had a somewhat similar experience when i was younger. The problem, i think ,with that however... is that it lays entirely within the realms of our limited imaginations... subject to constant dramatic changes! So who/what came before the being that we know as God? (Shrug's shoulders!) I do agree with you that it certainly won't be solved anytime soon and it may not be science that ever solves the question!
It should be said that it's not my intention too argue with you or anyone about whether he exists or not, let alone tell you what you should believe. I hope that isn't how i am coming across? I believe that is best left to one's personal choice, if they understand the choices that are actually confronting them! But, if i may point out without sounding like i am preaching here; God as a he, she or it... as i understand it, is a sexless being, not subject to the innumerable constraints and the many vices that comes with being a human made out of mass. I think our first mistake, for those who read and or reject biblical teachings, is thinking that becasue we are made in the image of God, (In one way or another, would make it open too interpretation and possibly a subject for another thread?), is that it would make the holy being be subjected to our natural laws instead of his, when the fact is the other way around... if you know what i am trying too say?
Well, i do respect that belief, though i do happen too think otherwise! Creationism, whatever one may think, i do believe it can be complimentary too evolution, that is... side by side and vice versa! Does that make me or others of like mind, sound like a bunch of christian fundamentalist? Do i sound like i want to destroy or discredit evolution, just because it challenges my belief's? Or is the fact always overlooked that a christian can and is capable of respecting another's opinon, no matter how opposite, which just might help them too open their minds to the unconsidered possiblities of drawing closer to their beliefs, or... questioning the innumerable unfilled gaps as proposed by evolutionists? I'm not really afraid or offended in the least, too discuss the merits of both!
I do respect the challenging questions that is put to christanity/other religons on a daily basis. What is there to really fear, when those of an opposing view point have just as many question directed toward the theory of evolution?
Edited by Panther - 17-Jan-2008 at 20:14 |
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beorna
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Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 12:39 |
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First of all I do respect every belief. If people need religions, because thats the way by what they can understand their life, if it helps them when they are sad or sick, it's o.k. I am very sure you're wrong but thats your problem not mine. I don't want that other people tell me what is right and wrong, so I do not tell you what you have to believe. And of course I do not want to hurt anybody. When I understand you correct, you believe that god is beyond all laws and physics. Why should he share the same feelings as we do, why the same moral? The most christians I know believe that God is a person, a beloved father in heaven. They think they can light candles a everything will become good. And if it doesn't work then they believe they failed or sometimes even the evil let them fail. I think we can discuss about what is God or does he exist at all until eternity without getting an answer. Nobody knows. You ask me, what is there to really fear. Well, if christians or other help their neighbours, if they want to live in peace and all these good things, I don't fear anything at all. But this has nothing to do with creationism or I.D. There are three mainstreams of creationism. The first is the day-age-creationism. This says we do not know how long these 7 days were at all. Perhaps each day last for billions of years. So it tries to harmonize bible and science. This idea is not very famous in the moment. The 2nd one is the gap creationism. It says between the first days and the 7th day there is a first world which was destroyed by satan and which had no time limit. On the 7th day god created man and so on. Well, I ask myself why this story isn't told by the bible itself, but o.k. This theory isn't famous as well yet.
The 3rd one is the young-earth-creationism. This is the most famous nowadays. It believes that the 7 days are real and it believes that the bible is true word by word. I could go with you right inside the bible and I could show you so many mistakes there that we should be surprised if it would really be writen or dictated by god.
Creationism started again in the 1960th in the USA. The most famous organisation is the ICR, I think it's in San Diego but I am not sure. They reinstalled the bible in the class rooms, side by side with Darwin. Their new argument is fairness. Isn't it fair that pupils know different views? But this is not what they really want. It is a foot in an open door and the next step is to push that door open to go through and to kick Darwin and other non-christian ideas out. They like to call everything a theory. The theory of relativity, the fact that the earth is moving around the sun is a theory, continental drift is a theory. and the newest ideas are to ask for a creator. So if you find a watch in a forest. Isn't it necassary that there is a creator? and if you see an animal, isn't it necessary to have a creator, too? My question is, if there is a god, isn't it necessary that there is a creator?
In Italy in 2004 the minister for education wanted to push out Darwin from the biology lesson and teach the pupils the bible. that's the truth not fairness. And the ICR or e.g the CSF are quite moderate. But for example the CSA in Kansas isn't as well. They say everything evil in the world is a consequence of Darwin. And if THE EVIL comes into a discussion I say stop. Because of course everybody wants to wipe out the evil. There is no big step to the Nazis. We are good and they not. Wipe'em out!
There are so many fools who join the creationism-train. In Germany there is a creationist group that believes the government install AIDS, there is even an UFO-group, the Rael-movement, who is working together with the creationists, well even Esoterik groups are with them.
That all would be no big problem at all. But these ideas are picked up by fanatic, violent and very conservativ and unfortunately powerful groups. In the USA only 12 percent believe in Darwin, the most of them aren't well educated and I am sure had never heard of Darwin at all. 37 percent believe that God is responsible for the evolution, this is e.g. what the pope says too. I don't have a big problem with this point of view. Allthough I think, as I told you above, we have to thing about these God.
I believe you are a nice guy and that you are just looking for an explanation for the world you live in. If you have found some answers for you it is good for you I am happy with you. But don't stay side by side with these fundamentalist creationists. In Germany we say: First the Nazis took the Jews away, I didn't help them, because I am no Jew. Then they took the communists away. I didn't help them, I am no communist. Then they took the catholics away. I didn't help them. I am no catholic. Then the Nazis came and wanted to took me away - and nobody was there to help me. These fundamentalist will not stop when they kicked off Darwin from common life and then your opinion will be next they are going to hate.
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Voice of Reason
Knight
Joined: 09-Jan-2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 95 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 14:34 |
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You mentioned earlier that you're wondering what made God? - I've often heard this question asked and i'd like to talk about it for just a second. The thing is, that when many people ask what made God, is because they think of Him as inside time.
Lets say that i were to draw a circle, lets assume this circle is a perfect circle, so that there is no visible beginning and end in 3D. But in 4D, with time, this circle has a beginning and end, in time this circle has one beginning and one end as well. Physicists think of time as the realm of cause and effect. You have a cause, time passes, you get affect. Well, for this circle, I'm the cause, the time is the time that it takes me to take the chalk and make the circle, and teh effect is a circle. Well anything effected by time has a beginning and end, and it all has only one beginning and end within time. Mass has a beginning in time, thus it will have an end. This circle had a beginning, i drew it, when ti's erased it has an end, any circle re-drawn, even if it's in the exact same spot, is a new circle.
Well, if everything within time has a beginning and end, then anything out of time, infinity, doesn't ahve a beginning and end. In the Bible we believe God to work in two lines of time. Infinite time, and finite time (our time). If you have two lines of time, time becomes a plane, like a sheet of paper, only infinite. Thus, by physics God could exist in any line of time on that infinite "sheet paper of time" and still not touch our line of time.
So, if God it outside of time, He is then by rule infinite, as anything not effected by time doesn't have a beginning and end. If God were effected by time, then He would, but we believe Him not to be bound by time, thus no beginning and no end. That's possible from what we already know of the realm of time in science today.
I also find it very cool though.. because Jesus said "I am the beginning and the End" not "I'm now the beginning, then the end" and from what we know of the dimension of time, anything not affected by time can be just that, the beginning and the end at he same time!
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Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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beorna
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Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 15:06 |
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Well, first of all what you say is just a belief. so it can be right, but also wrong. It's the same with me. You think God out of all limits. This is possible, I told it. But why such a god has emotions like we have, why does he let the sun stand still at Jericho, whhy let he die his son and all the other questions. Why such an infinite god isn't evolution? The people in the bible weren't as modern as we are. They didn't know much about science. If god gave them the bible, perhaps he thought they are not ready for the things we know. Perhaps he gave us science to explore his universe? Perhaps he has nothing against it because he is off all limits and we'll never explore him? But as I said, this is belief.
This thread is about creationism against evolution and these creationists are dangerous. They play with your emotions. All they want is power.
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Panther
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Joined: 20-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 01:52 |
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I'm not sure if i am following you here. If i am understanding you correctly, what you are basically saying is that religon is a crutch which makes them extremely weak in their reasoning and leaves them unable too comprehend the realities of their surroundings?
Law and physics is an extremely helpful learning tool that helps man too better understand his surroundings. Yes, i believe God is way beyond our understanding of our natural laws and i can safely and most sincerely say.... that i doubt God would willingly subject the holy being to the pinching, prodding and dissecting which is found in a science lab, just so the confusion within our politics of this controversy can take over just one more thing among the thousands of other issues! With one group of scientists still denying God's existence, contrary to the physical evidence before them vs. those who had seen more then enough with a ton of evidence there which supports the very existence God! Of course, i am basing this thought on a "hypothetical scenario" on what would happen, given the evidence of man's ability too quarrel with himself, even when the evidence or lack thereof... is staring him straight in the face!
That's a tricky thought, which has the potenetial of turning this into a long, long, very lllooonggg... post, as if won't be already? To be as short as i can , i think prayers can and do go unanswered for multiple of reasons and not neccessarily always because we are either bad or not good enough, or evil had interferred with our hopes or desires or something like that... ! I think if a person is reflective enough, then they might be able too see that what they thought they wanted and desired, had actually turned out in the scheme of things, to be either inconsequential or even harmful to a person's over all growth through a normal life span! It's not God abandoning them or proof positive that he doesn't exist. Which will leave this open too interpretation in a hundred of ways or can go in any direction as we desire it! You know... "Free will" and "making our own choices"... Does this make any sense? However, i do agree with you. As hard as we seek and as many questions that we ask, there will not be a definitive answer as long as our realities exist as it is. Except, when we die, only then will this question be revealed from a christian viewpoint, or from the atheist veiwpoint, nothing will follow!
So you try to answer for me, what it is that you fear! From what i gather, your not afraid of christians, per se... but being out of control or... something larger than yourself not being in control and keeping all these differing viewpoints in check. It's the conspiracy of fundamentalists shoving their viewpoints down your throat by getting their foot through an open door! Am i even close with that brief observation? I'll give my further views based on how you respond on whether i am correct or not.
Thank you for the compliment. You seem like a nice person yourself. Anyways... You don't need too worry! Contrary too what you might think, every christian in know or have met, even on-line... have nothing in common with fundamentalists of any stripe or creed! Basically as far as this issue is concerned, they do believe in fairness, and certainly have no desire of silencing differing viewpoints, especially darwin's theory, with any type of oppressive ideology of their own! As far as the facts of humanities recent past are concerned, it was a totally different era. Just reading the news on a daily basis makes us aware of that fact! There is no room for such a thing anymore, in regards to remaining silent with a differing viewpoint in our modern world!
Best regards to you,
Panther Edited by Panther - 19-Jan-2008 at 01:54 |
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Panther
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Joined: 20-Jan-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 02:00 |
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Excellent observational post Voice of Reason! I thought about mentioning time itself in my post from a day or two ago. Couldn't quite make it work without having to redo that entire post and having it lose it's cohesion, so i let it slide. I'm cerainly glad you brought it up!
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Illirac
Colonel 
Joined: 23-Jun-2007 Location: Ma vlast Online Status: Offline Posts: 526 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 12:05 |
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First of all, if there is God who can knows "his will"? No one. And who said that God has emotions like we do? The Bible even if dictated by God, was written by human hands. Second, to believers there is no need to demonstrate because they believe. And perhaps he has expelled us and then abandoned us. But again, who knows his will? Maybe God created some form of life which later evolved into everything we know today. Maybe we where just simply evolved from nothing (prove it? Impossible. But why would be that impossible?), and perhaps we have been created. Creationist aren't dangerous and they play with emotions if your "free will" is weak. I do not know if they want power, but which man do not want it? |
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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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Guests
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 12:12 |
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I read a Jehova Witness magazine on which they show Creationism can't be reconciliated by Evolutionism. They say that while creationism see Man as degraded form of the ideals fixed by god (the fall from the Paradise), evolutionism see Man just as a superb animal. Therefore, ideas like the ones of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, that evolution was driven by God are false!
Well, If they are right, they have actually demostrated that God don't exist
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Illirac
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Joined: 23-Jun-2007 Location: Ma vlast Online Status: Offline Posts: 526 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 13:30 |
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Why would be false? And how you can demonstrate that God do not exist? Maybe both theories are wrong. Since it's dawn humanity have never discovered much: how they come to exist? - crated or evolved? Maybe we have been transformed  |
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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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Vorian
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Joined: 06-Dec-2007 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 566 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 13:56 |
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Imho, the only instances in history where man can see the hand of God, it's in the Big Bang and the sudden appearance of life in earth, and I am not sure about the second...
Religions were made by humans, for humans, I doubt anything taught in any religion has anything to do with God. |
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Illirac
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Joined: 23-Jun-2007 Location: Ma vlast Online Status: Offline Posts: 526 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 14:26 |
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Religion indeed was made by the humans, for humans - but is it the same for faith? You do not need a religion to believe in God, you need to believe. |
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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 14:50 |
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In the USA only 12 percent believe in Darwin, the most of them aren't well educated and I am sure had never heard of Darwin at all. 37 percent believe that God is responsible for the evolution.
Beorna, you had best come up with sources on this one.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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beorna
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Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 17:46 |
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uuops!?
 I should better read everything twice or even more! I am sorry. I do not know if you like what I wanted to write, but what I wrote was not want I wanted to. I fear its the completely opposit. The sentece must be: In the USA only 12 percent believe in Darwin. 37 percent believe that God is responsible for evolution. The rest believe that god created the earth and that it happened as the bible tells us. I believe a lot of them (of the rest) isn't well educated and I am sure had never heard of Darwin at all. The percentage is from the German National Geographic. I think it was from 2004. The issues are in the cellar, so I have to search for the correct issue if you want. Could be November issue.
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beorna
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Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 18:21 |
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Perhaps I should explain it a bit. I don't want to say christians are stupid and Darwinists clever. Please don't understand it like that. What I cannot understand is, if you have the choice to know something or to believe it, why so many people don't want to know. I spoke with so many christians about their believe and I asked them so many questions and very often at the end, if I had them in the trap, they said: "I don't want to think about it. I believe what I believe and I don't want to know anything else." I told you above, man has walked a long way from his origins, we explored so much, we don't live in a flat world, the sun isn't running around the earth and the stars aren't fixed at a roof. People in the Age of Mose didn't know that. Why hasn't god told them a story about the world they were able to understand? Why can't God have spoken to Darwin: Show my people how I really do my job. It's time to let them know something about evolution.? Why do only these preachers and priests know what god wants? Jesus said: Those who want to be the first, will be the last. So perhaps they just pretend that god is with them?
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Illirac
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Joined: 23-Jun-2007 Location: Ma vlast Online Status: Offline Posts: 526 |
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Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 18:59 |
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Why do most of the people believe in something?I too believe that someday will rain. Maybe they are afraid of knowing that they control their destiny. And again no one can know "his will", if he exist. And in the end what's the difference if we where created or evolved? We are humans in both cases. If they can prove that we have been created that means that God exist. If they prove we have been evolved that means that God do not exist(or not?): this is only a struggle between the church and the scientist for in both cases the one dislike the other |
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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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