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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russian America
    Posted: 01-Dec-2007 at 19:38
I'm opening this thread to discuss the history of Russian possessions in America including Alaska and some others as well as the other interesting issues related to the former.
 
The impacts of the Russian presence in America are still felt in the Russian society today in interesting ways.
 
For example, there is a Rock opera "Juno and Avos," about the unfortunate love of the Russian count Rezanov and the daughter of Spanish governor of California, that is very famous and popular in modern Russia.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2007 at 19:45
All I know is the cold war would be 'funnier' if Russia stil owned Alaska Tongue
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 03:04
Well, I have the opportunity to see Orthodoxes churches in Saskatchewan, Canada, of Russian and Ucranian settlers.
 
(canadian Ucranian orthodox church, Regina)
 
 
Saskatchewan
 
Russian Orthodox Church, the praries
 
 
In Latin America, Russians were less numerous than Italians, Germans, Brits, French and Iberians, but they were not that uncommon at all.
They assimilated fast to the population.
The last wave of Russians came with the fall of Comunism.
 
 
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 18:54
http://www.geocities.com/pmtreez/pix/pix/church.jpeg

Church made in"middle of nowhere" i guess...
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 19:51
The Russians discovered Alaska in 1741 when 2 of their ships, captained by Alexei Chirikov and Vitus Bering, which were exploring the Pacific coast of Russian Siberia, sited Alaska and realized that it was separated from Siberian Asia by the Bering Strait. Over the following years Russian explorers and traders entered Alaska, establishing trading-posts, where they traded for furs with the native Inuit (Eskimos and Aleuts) and Indians. Later the Russian Orthodox Church sent missionaries to convert the Alaskan natives to Christianity. In 1799 the Russian-American Company was established to facilitate the fur trade.
 
As time went on Russian explorers moved further down the Alaskan coast, down the Alaskan 'Panhandle', through what's now British Columbia, through what's now the American Pacific Northwest (Washington and Oregon), and into northern California. Here they encountered the Spanish, and their was some early rivalry between the Russians and Spanish in northern California. Later this developed into rivalry between the Russians and Mexicans. At one point the Russians established a fort in northern California, though it only lasted for a temporary amount of time. The Russians didn't move very far inland in Alaska, they stayed mostly along the coast.
 
Due to the great transportation problems between Alaska and the rest of Russia, the Alaskan colony wasn't very profitable. As time went on the Russian Alaskans tended to trade more with the British Hudson's Bay Company in Canada, and relied upon American trading ships to keep them supplied (they traded furs for supplies). The Russian government didn't approve of this and passed laws against it, but it continued to go on, as the American and British-Canadian trading-posts and ships were nearby and much more convenient. Finally, in 1867, the Russian government decided to sell Alaska to the United States. There were only about 700 Russian colonists living in Alaska at that time and most of them returned to Russia.
 
The most enduring legacy of the Russian colonial period in modern Alaska is the descendants of the Alaskan Inuit and Indians who'd converted to Russian Eastern Orthodoxy. There are about 20,000 Russian Orthodox in Alaska today, almost all of them the descendants of the Indians and Inuit. Some of the Aleutians, who'd intermarried with Russian traders, still have Russian surnames today.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 21:33
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, I have the opportunity to see Orthodoxes churches in Saskatchewan, Canada, of Russian and Ucranian settlers.
 
(canadian Ucranian orthodox church, Regina)
 
 
Saskatchewan
 
Russian Orthodox Church, the praries
 
 
In Latin America, Russians were less numerous than Italians, Germans, Brits, French and Iberians, but they were not that uncommon at all.
They assimilated fast to the population.
The last wave of Russians came with the fall of Comunism.
 
 
 
Thank you for the beautiful pictures, pinguin !
 
Do you have picture of indigenous Indian Orthodox Christian Churches in Alaska?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:45
Nope. We could find it in the web, though.
I like that architecture.
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 00:46
Good topic.

My grandparents (on my mother's side) were born in Russia and the Ukraine and moved to the Prairies when they were both children. They were German Mennonites, but my grandmother is named after Katherine the Great.
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 01:29
Some interesting passages from the review of the book on the approach of Russian Orthodox missionaries toward Tlingit Indians as compared to the approach of Protestant missionaries.
 
 
 
Russians, who were interested primarily in fur trading rather than exploiting the land, did not attempt to disturb the Tlingit subsistence economy or social traditions. Russian colonization policy, forged during the conquest of Siberia, tended to rely on collaboration with local Native leaders and utilizing local social and cultural infrastructures.The Tlingit interpreted this practice as "respect." However, any infringement of the Tlingit territorial rights, or any signs of "disrespect" produced immediate and at times harsh retaliation. The fear of Tlingit resistance made the Russian government refrain from forceful measures. As a result, during Russian rule, the foundations of the indigenous culture and social order, including Tlingit independence, remained largely intact. Although relations between Russians and Tlingit were far from idyllic, both cultures managed to establish a viable symbiosis that lasted until the sale of Alaska in 1867.

The same type of relations was established between the Tlingit and Russian missionaries. The missionary drive of the Russian Orthodox Church was much more modest than that of the Catholic and Protestant missions. The first missions started to work in the last decades of the eighteenth century, when moderation and patience in dealing with the "heathens" became the official course of the Holy Synod. Russian missionaries were cautious about meddling in secular affairs and undermining local leaders, be it Russian-American Company managers or Tlingit headmen. Certain aspects of the Orthodox theology and missionary practice facilitated their reception by the Tlingit. The Orthodox traditions of mourning and commemorating the dead seemed the most attractive to the Native people, with their traditional emphasis on veneration of ancestors. The most noticeable trait of the Orthodox missionary practice was the use of vernacular in preaching and later in portions of the liturgy. Russian missionaries tended to utilize the indigenous beliefs and interpret them in Christian terms. Many of the Russian missionaries were dedicated and learned clerics who were genuinely interested in the local culture. Prior to becomingInnokentii, first bishop of the Alaska diocese, the priest Ivan Veniaminov was a skillful and dedicated preacher and a quite perceptive anthropologist who had worked among the Aleuts and Tlingit in 1823-1838. Although Orthodox preachers were generally tolerant towards the local customs, this tolerance did not amount to promoting a syncretized Orthodoxy. Thus,Veniaminov simply believed that temporary concessions to "heathen"customs was nothing but a way to gradually attract them to Christianity. As a result of this policy, the first decades of proselytizing did not change the authentic Tlingit religious system.

This uneasy balance was tipped with the arrival of the "Boston Men." Unlike the Russians, who were concerned primarily with extracting the regions fur, the Americans were eager to explore all of its resources. American missionaries, with their emphasis on eradicating the "old customs" and instilling Christian and American values, also differed from their Orthodox counterparts.

The Presbyterian missionary drive in Alaska,inspired by the Rev. Sheldon Jackson, operated on the assumption that the subsistence economy and traditional ways of life were "primitive," inferior to the American economy and values, and, therefore, doomed. However, like their Orthodox predecessors, some Presbyterian missionaries, suchas John Brady, saw certain affinity between the Tlingit way of life and American values. Whereas the Orthodox preachers were unhappy about the "materialism" of the Tlingit, Brady saw it as a substantial advantage that, together with theirsedentary way of life, would help them embrace American values. The authorities concurred with the Presbyterian missionaries in their optimistic views of the Tlingit acquisitiveness as a way to incorporate them in "civilized" world. The well-meaning missionaries used rather drastic means in their relentless effort to incorporate "uncivilized" Indians into "Christian society." The co-educational boarding school for the Natives known as the Sheldon Jackson Institute, the Sitka Industrial School, or the Sitka Training School was one of the most important and effective innovations. Although the school provided excellent education in the "three Rs," the classroom instruction and sermons explicitly condemned all aspects of native culture and life, going as far as making students wash their mouths after speaking their Native tongue.

Despite these, at times heavy-handed, encroachments on their traditions and the increasing Native involvement in the market economy, the Tlingit retained the earlierambivalent views of Americans. Even in the turn of the twentieth century, despite all outward appearances of having been fully "civilized" and, perhaps thanks to this ostentatious compliancewith the White mans standards, the Tlingit retained a great deal of social, political, and cultural independence. In fact, they continued to "tolerate Americans as a necessary evil"(p. 280). Kan shows that the rise in Tlingit interest in Christianity and education in 1870s was essentially an indigenous movement, an endeavor to help the Tlingit adjust to and benefit from thepresence of the powerful newcomers. In fact, it wasthe Tlingits willingness to be included in the world of the White man, motivated by the desire to be treated with "respect" that was the key element of success of the Presbyterian missions. Although the Tlinglit, especially the younger generation, understood the advantages of a Presbyterian education, they were becoming increasingly resentful about the absence of the "respect" they had established with the Russians.

The "lack of respect" from the Presbyterian missionaries and educators eventually resulted in their shift towards the Russian Orthodox Church in Sitka and several other northern Tlingit communities in 1880-90s.

The story of the rivalry between the increasingly impoverished and understaffed Russian Orthodox and the well-financed Presbyterian missions is one of the most fascinating stories of the book. In seemed that at first the Orthodox Church was doomed to lose. In the first years after the sale of Alaska it became obvious the influence of Russian Orthodoxy was rather superficial. The Russian Orthodox mission was despised as "foreign," while the Presbyterians enjoyed wide support of the authorities, especially in the first decade of American rule. The Presbyterians, putting the traditional Protestantanti-Catholicism to the good use, accused the Russian Orthodox mission of promoting superstition, idolatry, and even making new converts "swear allegiance to the emperor of Russia" (p. 236). The Russian priests, increasingly frustrated that government money went to finance the Presbyterian boarding school (thus putting the impoverished parish school at an obvious disadvantage), responded in kind, attacking the Presbyterian preachers as "sectarians." Kan demonstrates that, although both missions regarded Tlingit as "children" and objects of their "enlightening" endeavors, they in fact, were"shrewd manipulators of the two missions," and sometimes even played one mission against another.

Despite all these obvious disadvantages, the Russian Orthodox enjoyed growing popularity among the Tlingit. Of course, the fact that the Russian Orthodox mission had been part of Tlingit life since the late 1700s was one of the most obvious factors behind this success. The richness of the Orthodox ritual and especially the tradition of the commemoration of the dead seemed more attractive to the Tlingit faithful, especially when compared with "plain" worship of the Presbyterians. However, the main cause was the Tlingits growing dissatisfaction with the Presbyterian missions. The Presbyteriansinsistence on eradicating all "old customs" inevitably resulted in the alienation of the majority of the Tlingit. In the Orthodox Church they "could be both "civilized" and respectable, but also largely independent" (p. 239).



Edited by Sarmat12 - 03-Dec-2007 at 02:57
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 02:00
  "Fort Ross" near San Francisco. The most southern point of the Russian advance in America.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 22:51
That piece of article is fascinating, Sarmat.
Besides the lack of profit, what were the other motives for Russia to sell Alaska to the US?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 03:39
Well. The reason was simple. Russia had too much land. The imperial authorities decided that it would be reasonable to emphasize the exploration and population of the so called Russian "Far East" i.e. the region between Siberia and Pacific Ocean. The resources in the East of Russian empire where scarce and needed to be distributed wisely.
 
But Russians did reached a lot of remote lands (from the point of the Western center of the Empire). For example Hawaii almost became a Russian colony. It didn't happen only because Nicholas I didn't approve the plan of colonisation.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 17:11
Originally posted by xi_tujue

All I know is the cold war would be 'funnier' if Russia stil owned Alaska Tongue


LOL

I would like to see it like a movie...The moment when a USSR council discussed  the matter for the first time and said "What on earth were we thinking about when we gave away Alaska?".


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