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Byzantine Themes
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padem View Drop Down
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Posts: 14 		  Quote padem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Byzantine Themes
    Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 03:20
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by padem

I agree with that, but only for the last two centuries of the Empire.In the middle period,at least before the conquests of Nicephorus Phocas, the Byzantines relied in large part on locally recruited thematic fleets from Samos (Samos and Ionia),the Aegean (most of the islands) and Kibyrrhaiotes(southern coast of Asia Minor) to deal with the Saracens of Crete and Cilicia who were the major threat at sea.

I was trying to remember the name of the thematic sailors for the middle period.  The "Kibyrrhaiotes" were them.  However, I think Peter Charanis mentions in his article on demography that these men were eventually relocated in one of Byzantium's signature population transfers from the late 6th to the 10th centuries.  This is how the Tzakones lost their ethnic distinction and the the title started to refer to their job category as sailors.
 

I think there's some confusion here.Kibyrrhaiotes wasn't the name of a specific ethnic group.The story went that the Emperors named the whole theme after a small and insignificant  town called Kibyrrha, to disparage the stubborn locals who didn't take well to orders from the central governement.
I haven't read the article you mentioned but from what I gather he's probably talking about the Mardaites.These were Christians living in the mountains of Lebanon who didnt't accept Arab control when  Syria was conquered and kept on fighting.Apparently they continued recognising Byzantine authority however, so when Justinian II made peace with the Caliph sometime around the turn of the 8th century, one of the tems was to relocate them in the Empire.Justinian II settled about 12000 of them near Attaleia where they remained a distinct group.At least as late as the 10th century they were under the command of a catepano appointed directly from Constantinople (κατεπάνω τῶν Μαρδαϊτῶν Ἀτταλείας) instead of the strategos of the Kibyrrhaiotes theme.
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Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 03:36
Originally posted by padem

I think there's some confusion here.Kibyrrhaiotes wasn't the name of a specific ethnic group.The story went that the Emperors named the whole theme after a small and insignificant  town called Kibyrrha, to disparage the stubborn locals who didn't take well to orders from the central governement.
 
Padem, thanks for continuing the discussion.
 
Actually, when I talked about ethnic groups, I meant the Tzakones, not the Kibyrrhaiotes.  Bartusis does go into the problems of distinguishing between ethnicity and function. 
 
Although they had been known for coming from Lakonia early on, and thus had an ethnic distinction, in the later period the term was assigned to sailors serving in Michael VIII Palaiologos' navy anchored at Constantinople.  He brought them and settled them in the suburbs with a grant of pronoia for maintanence. 
 
As Patrinos pointed out, Tzakones became even more of a generalized military term in the late period, as it was assigned to fortress guards in the imperial document he cited.
 
Originally posted by padem

I haven't read the article you mentioned but from what I gather he's probably talking about the Mardaites.These were Christians living in the mountains of Lebanon who didnt't accept Arab control when  Syria was conquered and kept on fighting.Apparently they continued recognising Byzantine authority however, so when Justinian II made peace with the Caliph sometime around the turn of the 8th century, one of the tems was to relocate them in the Empire.Justinian II settled about 12000 of them near Attaleia where they remained a distinct group.At least as late as the 10th century they were under the command of a catepano appointed directly from Constantinople (κατεπάνω τῶν Μαρδαϊτῶν Ἀτταλείας) instead of the strategos of the Kibyrrhaiotes theme.
 
Yes, I recognize the Mardaites.  However, Bartusis is talking about the Tzakones in a much later period than the 8th century.
 
Late Byzantine Military
Ottoman perceptions of the Americas
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Constantine XI View Drop Down
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 23:30
gezgin, everyone already knows about the Siege of 1453. Your comment does not contribute to the topic we are discussing, which concerns the provincial organisation of the Byzantine Empire. Also, your post looks suspiciously like you are trying to provoke a hostile reaction - you should not do so here as we are here to discuss history in a calm and polite fashion. Post deleted.
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