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Topic ClosedRosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text
    Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:15
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



And what a ridiculous link:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

How about some ancient authors about the Macedonianiousness of the ancient Macedonians!

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

And some cultural notes...

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/



Ridiculous because you don't like what the internationally known historians quoted on that webpage sayWink


and please don't make me pull out the Athenianousness of the ancient Athenians, the Spartanoussness of the Spartans and so on......


Edited by chicagogeorge - 05-Dec-2007 at 02:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:17
TRY THIS FOR A THEORY?

from: http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/

ROSETTA STONE-DECODING THE DEMOTIC TEXT:

The wiring for sound of the identified syllabic signs can be realized by finding words in the text which have preserved their meaning to the present day in languages or dialects in the Balkan area or farther afield in the European area. In this phase the analysis will, of course, be based on a comparison between words from the text of the Rosetta Stone and archaisms from the dialects of the contemporary Macedonian language.

Hence, we provide a detailed analysis of the wiring for sound of the asymmetrical, symmetrical, inclined and specific syllabic signs.

Using more than one hundred words from the contemporary Macedonian language, all 13 asymmetrical signs were wired for sound with corresponding consonants. They are:

Chart 1.



the asymmetrical signs P[r] and J[j] in today's and in the ancient Macedonian script have the same form and the same sound. According to their written form the remaining asymmetrical signs are mutually similar, and in their pronunanciation, too, for example the asymmetrical signs Ж[zh], З[z], Ѕ[dz], С[s], Ц[ts], Ч[tch], Ш[sh], and Шт[sht].

Each of these 13 consonants on the writing surface, can be written using 8 dispositions and can denote syllables with 8 consonants, as in the example of the sign for the consonant J[j].

Chart 2.



The procedure of mirroring and rotating the basic sign on the writing surface in order to attach the corresponding vowel from the syllable for consonant П

is shown below.

Chart 3.



All 8 positions of writing are identified in the text, which means they have been wired for sound with all 6 active vowels in today's Slavic languages and the long forms of the vowels O[?] and E[?] which have been preserved in the contemporary Slovenian language, as well as in some of the dialects of the Macedonian language.

All forms of the asymmetrical signs with their wiring for sounds are presented in the following table.

Chart 4.



Using about 20 words from the contemporary Macedonian language, 6 symmetrical signs were wired for sound. They are:

Chart 5.



No more than 4 positions for writing were found for each of the signs wired for sound in the text. The formation of syllables in the corresponding vowels is shown in the table, positions 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7, respectively.

Chart 6.



In order to form a syllable with the vowel и, we identified that the signs of the consonants B(V) and Л(L) were written with the mark for virama and then the symbol for the vowel и(I) was added.

Unlike the asymmetrical signs, where the vertical line is dominant in the basic sign, in the inclined signs an inclined line is dominant. And for these signs no more than 4 positions for writing were identified.

The formation of syllables with corresponding vowels is demonstrated in the table shown below, positions 3, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13, respectively.

Chart 7.



In the text the sign for the consonant Љ[lj] most frequently occurs in a syllable with the vowel y(u), which is also characteristic in the contemporary Macedonian language.

The first sign left to right in the analyzed text is a rotated form of the sign Б(b) for 45 degrees in the clockwise direction. No defining word for this sign has yet been found in today's Macedonian language, and our assumption is that most probably it represents the consonant Ф(f).

Chart 8.



The specific syllabic sign which in form recalls the letter Д[d] in the Cyrillic alphabet was proved by wiring for sound in all its forms, such as:

Chart 9.



Apart from our research, the syllabic sign Ди[di] has the same form of wiring for sound in the monograph Praslavyanskaya Pismenost by G.S. Grinevich, Moscow 1993.


Edited by Petro Invictus - 05-Dec-2007 at 02:20



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:18
I have to repeat this again for easier work on the analysis:

DECODING THE TITLE OF THE EMPEROR

From what has been said to date we can identify 2 words when the name of the emperor is mentioned as 2 superlatives, from right to left:


READ THIS INSCRIPTION FROM RIGHT TO LEFT:

Chart 10.


You will find the first sign (which looks like "J" rotated 45 degrees) in Chart 4. It sounds 'J' like in Yellow, Yearn, with a "schwa" following it.

Now we have something that looks like a vertical line. You can find this simbol in both Charts 7 and 8. It is the sound for "N", and in that position it sounds: "NA". Crossed with each oteher makes it "NAJ" or "nai" as pronounced in English.

Keep on going it is getting more interesting:

Then the next symbol is the little flag on a post facing down. Find it on Chart 4, letter number 6. Position 4 (ee). Combined in a syllable it sounds:Dze or Dse.

So far we have: "Naj" i "NaDze" (we get the "Na" on "Dze" crossing it).

The next symbol which looks like a broken stick you can find it on Chart 6, letter number 4. It sounds: Me. This sign has been used several times with the sound "I" as in tree, see... added to it to represent "name", "I-me".

So far we have:"Naj" and "NaDze" and "I-me".

Let us move on!

The next dash, we already know represents the "N" sound, and in this position it is pronounced as "Ne'" as in Nerd, Nurse...

The next one looks like a leaning "V". You can find it on Chart 4, letter 10. It position is second from the right and it sounds sounds:"TSA". Like in Tsar.

So far we have:"Naj" and "NaDze" and "I-me" and "Tsa". Together "NajNaDzeImeN'Tsa"!

If you go to the second word now, the one on the left, the first symbol is already familiar and we'll just list it here: "Naj"(This is the suffix used for superlative form of adjectives).

The next symbol can be found on Chart 4, letter 4, positioned fourth on the table. It sounds: "Z'ee", like in Geneva.

The following symbol is on Chart 8, letter 2, fifth position on the table. It sounds: "Ve".

The last symbol is on the same Chart 8, but letter 11, position 3 on the table. It sounds: "Nu".

So all together we get: "Naj-Zee-Ve-Nu" or "NajZeVeNu"

If we put these words together we get:

"NajNaDzeImeN'Tsa" "NajZeVeNu" (in the image read from right to left)



This is the very product of the process of DECODING we conducted using the charts as presented by the professors themselves. This is the title of the ruler of Egypt at that time, Ptolomy who was of Macedonian descent, and the founder of the Macedonian dynasty in Egypt. Their language has survived in modern day Macedonian, as well as other Slavic langauges, which can be easily noticed from the following translation:   

Translated into contemporary Macedonian language:

"Nainaochit i Najzivean Imenets"

compare:

"NajNaDzeImeN'Tsa" "NajZeVeNu"

"NajNaDzeImeN'Tsa" - "Naj" is the superlative it means "the most"; "Dze"- means light, seeing, in modern Macedonian "ochit"(visible); "ImeN'Tsa", in modern Macedonian - "Imenec" or "Imenosec", meaning "the Holder of a Title, an Honorable Name".

Equivalent to English "the most honorable name".

And in Greek:



I hope you enjoyed this little presentation!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:19
I can give you full time classes on reading Demotic!

Free of charge of course!

Edited by Petro Invictus - 05-Dec-2007 at 02:19


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:51
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

I can give you full time classes on reading Demotic!

Free of charge of course!



First you have to learn Greek.Wink



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 03:03
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

We have different names! Solun, Sveta Gora, Voden, Strkovo, Postol...


Now find me an ancient reference to these names. And when I mean ancient I'm talking about BC.Wink

Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Makedonija means the Home of the Great Mother Dea, at least that is what the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone says, and it has a mythical significance to those who identify with it!


LOLLOL LMAOLOLLOL




LOLLOL

Originally posted by Petro Invictus


To me Macedonia is the land where the very soul of the Earth, springs up in torrents from the mountain peaks, and the steady sound of vastness of space lures you to a deep indulgence into your own Cosmos to discover the Truth!

The Truth is One for all!

To me Macedonia is the "bellybutton of the world" that connects me to Mother Earth!

Macedonian to me means: the Keeper of the Sun! It means Guardian of the Holy Grail of the Kingdom of Macedon, it means a fairy tale, that might one day come true.

To me Macedonia is an inspiration and an everlasting fountain of joy and happiness. I love Macedonia's wine. I love its food. I love to stay up late and watch the silver sky and see the peaks lurking from behind.

I am the Orpheus of my modern motherland and my name is Macedonian.


Bravo.Clap

A tear came to my eye.......Cry




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea.html

Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21
Excellent analysis of the Macedonian-Greek conflict



http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html

John Sea...A TRUE HISTORIAN LOL

Research Areas:
  • Psychological factors that affect health, especially immune functions, allergies and cancer
  • Support groups for cancer patients
  • Personality factors as predictors of hypnotic talent, and the use of hypnosis for bodily change
  • Human sexuality

Moreover, he is married to a woman from your country which explains his constant strugle of writting books on the issue. A proffessional again...Clap

This is from JSTOR where Historians and Archeologists get their resources and reviews...



I don't need to say more...He admits himself being biased...I wonder why...He is very selective in his sources where many of them are FYROMacedonian. He has knownledge of the language because of his wife...He makes mistakes and bypasses conclusions made by proffesionals in the field of Macedonian archeology.

If he only wrote more about Gotse Delchev...Big%20smile

But when you're biased you don't want to be accurate Embarrassed


Edited by Flipper - 05-Dec-2007 at 18:55


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 08:43
lets try and keep this civil.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 18:07
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



Then the code must be reexamined!

Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!



If you read ancient Greek comedy, you will notice one very interresting things...

All foreigners speak funny and use imaginary words. Contrary, Macedonians seems to handle the language correctly and moreover speak some kind of Dorian.

An ancient author called Strattis is a classical example of a dialogue between an Athenian and a Macedonian, talking about dishes. One famous quote of this comedy is the following:

ἡ σφύραινα δ ἐστὶ τίς;
κέστραν μὲν ὕμμες ὡττικοὶ κικλήσκετε.
Athenean: Sfyrena? What is that?
Macedonian: You Attic people call it "kestra".

a) Whenever the Macedonian speaks, he speak flawlesly Doric Greek. If he was billingual he would choose to speak in Attic with the Athenian. Why use a dialect that an Athenian doesn't speak? (note that Doric is not lingua franca nor was Attic during the 5th century BC)
b) He seems to be well aware of Attic dialect and even know how a sfyrena (Hammerfish) is called in Attic.
c) The macedonian word for hammerfish, which the Athenian is not aware of has clearly its root in the Greek word "sfyre/σφυρί" (hammer). (Validate this even in modern Greek through http://babelfish.altavista.com/)
d) He refers to the Athenian as "Attic" which denotes his dialect group or region. He doesn't say "you Greek people" but he says "You attic people".
e) Even though the dialogue is 95% in Doric vs Attic, the Macedonian uses slightly different standards when speaking Doric. He uses "ὕμμες" which is Aeolic resonant!!! Not strange since  the Macedonian southern neighbours were Aeolians  and according to their religion the Magnetes were their closest tribal cousins who were Aeolians as well!

These small details are noticed in various macedonian made inscriptions whether they are written in Attic or something else.

In other words, the missing link before the Pella katadesmos was documents written in the language described in comedies or something similar to the records of the Historians reffering to Dorian people as Macedonian (e.g the Dorians of Peloponesus).

Moreover, the early name inscriptions from personal belongings in Macedonia used alphabets like Corinthian. People who used it in the past were in most cases Doric speaking people!

It is therefore more than obvious that the first thing someone wants to find is a longer text written in Doric, since all sources lean to that side.

All those clues are things you might not comprehend, but people who have studied ancient greek and work with archeology know what they are looking for. Such details are more than enough to grasp the basic nature of the language. What we don't know is the anomalies and distortions it might have in its grammar, that could classify it as a dialect of its own.



Edited by Flipper - 05-Dec-2007 at 18:09


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by Petro


Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Makedonija means the Home of the Great Mother Dea, at least that is what the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone says, and it has a mythical significance to those who identify with it!


LOL

I have heard so many theories about that name...Everyone has his own translation. Too pitty for you guys, everybody in the community knows what "Macedonia" means.

Maybe you could explain why since the establishment of the Kindom, all Macedonians have Greek names instead of calling themselves Drago, Ivan, Svetlana etc? Do you Petro, have a good explanation for it?

Have a look at these names below from the Necropolis of Pydna:

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=313083&region=4&subregion=11&bookid=172&caller=search&start=182&end=190

Βε̣ρ̣οιαῖος καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ Ἑλλὰς καὶ ὁ υἱὸς αὐτῶν Μένανδρος.

Βερoιαίος και η γυναίκα αυτού Ελλάς και ο υιός αυτών Μένανδρος (in modern greek for easy translation purposes)

Veriaios and his wife Hellas and their son Menandros
His wife is called Hellas!!!!! Which parent would name his child Hellas? A foreign one or a Greek patriot? Moreover their child is called Menandros! Can you explain these names? Please don't tell me now Macedonians were obsesed with Greek names. Ok, to call your child after a world famous historical person but to give it the name of a country or other greek names of lower significance is rather absurd...

And what about this one written in Corinthian alphabet? Ippomachas (in possesion of Ippomachi).



Or this one? Pyrrhus...One more Dorian name in Corinthian alphabet?





Just some samples...There are tons of inscriptions of honoured Macedonians and all have Greek names.



Edited by Flipper - 05-Dec-2007 at 20:57


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



Then the code must be reexamined!

Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!



Mary mother of Jesus. What absurdities is this LOL LOL LOL

Open another thread, or re-start an old topic regarding the Macedonians Greek or not and we would be very, very happy to party with you Big%20smile Big%20smile Big%20smile


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 22:12
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

[QUOTE=chicagogeorge]

So, please...

And what a ridiculous link:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

How about some ancient authors about the Macedonianiousness of the ancient Macedonians!

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

And some cultural notes...

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/




Just to demonstrate for everyone how unreliable historyofmacedonia.org is with its selective quoting...

Plutarch wrote "The parallel lives of Greeks and Romans"!!! What was Alexander? A Roman or A Greek? 3rd option is not available by Plutarch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Lives

That was a glorious example of history ignorance and falsification... Thumbs%20Down





Edited by Flipper - 05-Dec-2007 at 22:14


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 00:53
Originally posted by Arxileas

Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Then the code must be reexamined!

Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!

Mary mother of Jesus. What absurdities is this LOLLOLLOL Open another thread, or re-start an old topic regarding the Macedonians Greek or not and we would be very, very happy to party with you Big%20smile Big%20smile Big%20smile


It's fun enough seeing you like this before me on this topic, I wouldn't like to give you more headaches...

And I am just an amateur! Who knows what a professional would make out of it?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:04
You are an amateur just like the electrical engineers.The professionals have already made it and they dont agree with you or the electricians.
http://www.hoplites.net/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:08
ἡ σφύραινα δ’ ἐστὶ τίς;
κέστραν μὲν ὕμμες ὡττικοὶ κικλήσκετε.
Athenean: Sfyrena? What is that?
Macedonian: You Attic people call it "kestra".


Flipper everyone knows that there are only a couple of sentences preserved from the plays by Strattis, and they have been recoreded in the works of Athenaeus Naucrates. In this particular line the original says "the others" in stead of the Macedonians, as you interpret it on the basis of no evidence, but an ASSUMPTION!

"But what is Sphurasna?"
The other replies: "You Attic people call it "cestra".

from Athenaeus

source: "Deipnosophists" Book VII, Loeb Classical Library; ISBN 0-674-99380-2, pg. 508

So QUIT it, please!

Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Democtic text!

You know guys, I have decided to take your standpoint for a while and say: MAYBE THIS WHOLE THING IS A FRAUD!!!

BUT THEN THERE ARE THE TABLES, and every simpleton can work its code out to the script and read it! This way or the other...

Could it be that they devised such a perfect cutting-edge method of decoding an ancient script into a language that would sound SLAVIC?!?!

Edited by Petro Invictus - 06-Dec-2007 at 01:09


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:13
Originally posted by chicagogeorge



Originally posted by Petro Invictus


And what a ridiculous link:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

How about some ancient authors about the Macedonianiousness of the ancient Macedonians!

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

And some cultural notes...

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/
Ridiculous because you don't like what the internationally known historians quoted on that webpage sayWinkand please don't make me pull out the Athenianousness of the ancient Athenians, the Spartanoussness of the Spartans and so on......


And the Greekness of Macedonia! WOW   

I asked you: HOW ABOUT THE TURKISHNESS OF GREECE!?!

Suppoted on this:from Wikipedia...

"The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey is the first large scale population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion in the 20th century. It involved some two million people, most forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from homelands of centuries or millennia, in a treaty promoted and overseen by the international community as part of the Treaty of Lausanne. The document about the population exchange was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland in 1923, between the governments of Greece and Turkey. The exchange took place between Turkish nationals of the Greek Orthodox religion established in Turkish territory, and of Greek nationals of the Muslim religion established in Greek territory."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey

Are we sure the modern Greeks have the right to claim the ancient Greeks!?!

Or this:

"The issue of the Slavic minority in northern Greece is one that deserves attention in its own right. It has some bearing on our understanding of certain issues in areas bordering the state of Macedonia. In its annual reports from 1991 through 1994, the United States State Department complained about the Greek government's denial of civil rights to minority groups, including Slavic speakers in Aegean Macedonia and Turkish speakers in Thrace. This leads us into a fascinating exploration of the redistribution of populations in northern Greece earlier this century, and the repeated efforts by strong central government in Greece to create the impression of a tightly knit and coherent Greek-speaking community. At first blush one might think that northern Greeks have a legitimate claim to at least share the name Macedonia with the Vardar Macedonians. However, it turns out that the immediate forbears of a majority of the Greek population of northern Greece originate from outside of the Balkans, in Western Turkey. These northern Greeks are not indigenous to the area, a fact to be taken into consideration when seeking to discover who has a legitimate claim on the name Macedonia. We might also wonder at the unwillingness of Greece to use the name Macedonia when it conquered the southern part of Macedonia in the first Balkan war, and the apparent rehabilitation of the name in recent years. "

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea.html

and also:

"Third, in some ways this kind of analysis is little more than an empty academic game, since we have to talk in part about ancient history. It is not a very convincing exercise to justify the boundaries of modern states on the basis of things that happened more than two thousand years ago. Ancient historical claims seem of trivial importance beside the realities of the present day. To people who live in former English colonies, such as Americans, Canadians and Australians, a lot of these ideas seem very strange. After all, at the very least the Slavic speakers have lived for around 1500 years in the territory that has been called Macedonia. (Some historians present a more extreme position, claiming that the invading Slavs were really just the returning Paeones who had inhabited northern and western parts of Macedonia before the Macedonian kingdom existed.)

However, we have to recognize that rationality may have little influence in matters of national pride. Nonetheless it can be argued that the Macedonians, by virtue of 1500 years of occupation, have a pre-eminent claim to the place and to the name, regardless of who lived there 3000 years ago. And that is precisely the case for recognizing the right of Macedonians everywhere to call themselves by that name today. Of course I will make the longer historical case too."

Interesting viewpoint! Don't you think?






Edited by Petro Invictus - 14-Dec-2007 at 01:46


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:35
Originally posted by Flipper



[QUOTE=Petro Invictus]

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea.html

Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21
Excellent analysis of the Macedonian-Greek conflict

John Sea...A TRUE HISTORIAN!

I don't need to say more...He admits himself being biased...I wonder why...He is very selective in his sources where many of them are FYROMacedonian. He has knownledge of the language because of his wife...He makes mistakes and bypasses conclusions made by proffesionals in the field of Macedonian archeology.If he only wrote more about Gotse Delchev...Big%20smileBut when you're biased you don't want to be accurate Embarrassed


WHO SAID HE WAS HISTORIAN?!?

He just presented an interesting view! I think you are being paranoid!

On the other hand:

Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21
Excellent analysis of the Macedonian-Greek conflict

http://david-edenden.blogspot.com/2007/04/macedonia-and-greece-by-john-shea-1997.html

Editorial Reviews

From Library Journal

In this unique book, we get the undiluted story of the Balkans in general and Macedonia in particular. Commenting on the tension between Greece and the new nation of Macedonia that has arisen out of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, Shea (Univ. of Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia) marvels at the Byzantine political games, is amazed at the lack of critical thinking skills, and reveals the truth (the whole truth and nothing but the truth). Shea selects the most significant historical points and analyzes them very carefully, commiserating not only with the Macedonians but also with the Greeks as he tries to point out the absurdities that are held together by pseudopolitical, historical, and religious values. He is concerned that Macedonia might become the scapegoat of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece. His comprehensive and objective account is recommended for academic collections.

John Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Library Journal

"unique...selects the most significant historical points and analyzes them carefully.... His comprehensive and objective account is recommended"

http://www.amazon.com/Macedonia-Greece-Struggle-Define-Balkan/dp/0786402288/ref=sr_1_1/002-6214362-1280042?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177468739&sr=8-1

This link is from amazon.com and the review is from John Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Sorry to have upset you so much!


Oh, I get it he's not one of yours! Sorry! Objectivity matters to some!

The following link you provided as a source to the review of Shea's book you posted as an IMG, does not give a single THING! ZIP! NOTHING! Why?

http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html

Is this some essay a boy from school wrote for your historical archives here? Cause it says:www.newcastle.edu.au/school...?





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:44
YOU SAID:"He is very selective in his sources where many of them are FYROMacedonian"

WHAT?!?

Here is the Greek side in case you've MISSED it!

"It would probably be best to begin with a presentation of the Greek argument. This argument has been disseminated in various ways in America, including full-page political advertisements in leading newspapers, travel advertisements inviting people to visit "Macedonia" (meaning northern Greece), English-language materials published in Athens and distributed by the Greek embassy, and pamphlets distributed in Greek Orthodox churches. (WOW! HOW MUCH MUST HAVE COST THEM!?!) Recent statements by the Greek government have not deviated from these sources, so they remain a fair means of discovering what the Greeks appear to be concerned about.

On the 26th of April 1992 and the 10th of May 1992, an organization called "Americans for the Just Resolution of the Macedonian Issue" placed full page advertisements in the New York Times. The first of these was headlined, "Macedonia, what's in a name"; the second, "The name "Macedonia" is a time bomb! Mr President, you can defuse it." In both cases the appeal was directed at then president George Bush. The first of these advertisements focuses on the idea of a threat to Greece from a state called Macedonia. While the text says, "Recognize the Republic of Skopje, yes!" it adds, "With the name 'Republic of Macedonia,' why?" Thus, on the face of, it the problem is not so much the existence of the new state, but the possible consequences of it bearing the name Macedonia. The implication is that this name will somehow rekindle past territorial ambitions that would not be so easily stirred with a different name.

The advertisement gives a lot of attention to the involvement of Tito and Yugoslavia in the Greek civil war, referring for instance to "former communist designs on sovereign Greece." It informs the reader that

"in 1946, Tito and Stalin armed insurgents to trigger a bloody Civil war and unimaginable years of suffering for the Greek nation.... Today, Skopje's government aims to perpetuate the nightmare."

The advertisement goes on to say that the "Skopje's government":

claims that Macedonians exist "under occupation" in Greece;

calls for the "liberation" of all Macedonians, even those who regard themselves as free Greeks;

issues currency depicting landmarks of sovereign Greek territory;

publishes maps incorporating fully one-third of mainland Greece;

has a constitution proclaiming Tito's expansionist goals, calling for the unification of Greek provinces under a fabricated 'Macedonian' nation."

According to this ad, recognition of an independent republic called Macedonia would encourage aggression, increase tensions, destabilize the Balkans, and validate a "shameless fraud."

In this last statement we have a reference to the wider issue concerning the name Macedonia. The Greeks say that they have the sole right to use the name, for various historical reasons. The rest of the advertisement contains statements from American and world leaders (including American senators, the president of the European Parliament, the prime minister of Australia and the Greek prime minister), opposing recognition of the state of Macedonia up to the time the ad was placed, and an open letter to President Bush appealing in particular to historic concerns about "communist expansionism" in the area, the bitter experience of the Greek civil war, and previous American support of anti-communist forces in Greece. In this latter connection it is worth considering the quoted statement by a former United States Secretary of State on December 26, 1944: "This government considers any talk of a Macedonian 'nation,' Macedonian 'Fatherland' or Macedonian national consciousness' to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality ... a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."

The May 10 ad is much less detailed. It quotes a New York Times story (datelined May 2, 1992) on the European community's willingness to recognize the "breakaway republic of Macedonia" only if it changed its name, and once again appeals to past American concern about instability in the Balkans in general and about Macedonia in particular. "Since the break-up of Yugoslavia," reads the ad, "its people have suffered the relentless gunfire of hostilities: one tragedy after another - all stemming from ethnic violence and border disputes. The single stable border in the Balkans is provided by Greece. Now the breakaway southernmost Yugoslavian republic of Skopje insists on being recognized as 'Macedonia."' The advertisement goes on to say that in 1944, the Roosevelt administration recognized Greek ethnic, cultural and historical rights to the name and condemned any reference to a so-called Macedonian "nation." Describing the same issue today as a "dangerous ticking time bomb," the ad says that recognition of what it calls "Skopje" as the "Republic of Macedonia" would legitimize and encourage extremist and false claims upon sovereign Greek territory. Furthermore, the advertisement suggests a threat of war in the Balkans in which the United States could become involved.

Any thoughtful reader of these advertisements not versed in the history of Macedonia and Greece could not help being concerned about the issues raised. To a large degree I will allow other international commentators to pass judgment on the strength of these Greek fears at a later point in the book, giving here only a brief indication of an alternative viewpoint. Before that comment, however, I will present the rest of the Greek position, expanding on the question of the "Greek ethnic, cultural and historical rights to the name." I will use, in particular, quotations from pamphlets distributed from Greek Orthodox churches, apparently deriving from Greek government publications available in the Greek embassy during 1992. I do this so that the Greek position is accurately represented. Here are some of the important claims that are made.

1. The New York Times advertisement of 4/26/92 says, "4000 years of Greek History, 4000 years of Greek Culture, 4000 years of Greek Heritage... Skopje's government seeking recognition as the 'Republic of Macedonia' perpetuates a fraud." Pamphlets distributed in churches stated, "Macedonia has been Greek for 3,000 years. In ancient times Macedonians spoke Greek, worshipped Greek gods, expressed their creativity through Greek art and maintained a refined Greek culture ... all archaeological discoveries continue to unearth more information attesting to the indisputable Greekness of Macedonia."

2. "Out of the blue, in 1944, the Yugoslav communist leader, Tito, wishing to weaken Serbia on the one hand, and set the footing for future territorial claims against Greece on the other, schemingly gave South Serbia the Greek name 'Macedonia' and re-wrote the 'history' books to declare that ancient Macedonia was Slavic and that these people were descendants of Alexander the Great."

3. "The existence of a 'Slav' Macedonia could never be, and indeed, has never been supported either by historical data, or by ethnographic maps, or by statistics, or by some census, or by archaeological finds, or by even an obscure mention of such a nation from antiquity till today."

4. "Macedonia has been the name of Northern Greece for more than 3000 years. The Greek region ... has one of the most homogeneous populations in the world (98.5% Greek). Its population speaks Greek, feels Greek, is Greek."

5. "An independent 'Macedonia' would monopolize the name at the expense of the real Macedonians who are twice the number of the Slavs. The use and abuse of the name would cause widespread confusion as is already apparent."

6. "Macedonia is an indispensable part of Greece's historical heritage it cannot identify, in an ethnic sense another nation."

7. "The Skopje 'language' is undeniably Slavic."

8. "The Slavs did not set foot in the Balkans until 1000 years after Alexander the Great."

9. "The name 'Macedonia (which is etymologically Greek) was in use at least 1500 years before the arrival of the first Slavs."

10. "Every known Macedonian town, river and person had a Greek name – Philip (lover of horse), Alexander (protector of men), Archelaus (leader of people), Amyntas (defender), Ptolemy (warlike), Bucephalus (ox-head)."

11. "The Old Testament (Daniel Ch. 8) and the New Testament (Acts Ch. 17) confirm the Greekness of Alexander and the Macedonians."

12. "It was the Greek language that was taken to Asia (Bible written in Greek) and cities with Greek names and institutions that were founded."

13. "There are 60,000 archaeological finds that confirm that the Macedonians were Greek in language, culture and religion."

14. "The home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia. Is it feasible that a people would worship its national gods in a foreign country?"

15. " Yugoslav Macedonia is not even geographically in the territory occupied by ancient Macedonia."

16. "Independent sources in this century (Turkish Census of 1904 when the region was part of the Ottoman Empire, League of Nations Census of 1926 and declassified British Archives 1934) make no mention of any ethnic Macedonians whatsoever until the Communists came along with their preposterous concoction to dominate the Balkans."

17. "By appropriating and maintaining the name 'Macedonia' the Slavs are laying the foundations for future territorial claims against the region of the same name in Greece. They have clearly expressed this intention by:- (a) plagiarizing and blatantly falsifying history (b)... continuously using maps and emblems that include northern Greece as part of 'Macedonia~ and (c) refusing to comply with the directive of the European Community in its declaration of 16th December 1991 to (i) cease hostile propaganda; (ii) commit itself to guarantees that it has no territorial claims and (iii) not use a denomination (Macedonia) which implies expansionist intentions."

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea.html

Pay attention to the highlighted areas!

"This set of statements was widely circulated, with minor changes made for particular locations, in different parts of the English-speaking world. Copies of the main points were distributed through Greek churches, and were frequently published in the "letters to the editor" sections of local newspapers. Clearly the Greek communities were very keen to see the message spread and went to great organizational effort and expense to see that this happened. I have no doubt that most of those engaged in this effort hold these beliefs very sincerely. Indeed the mass demonstrations by Greeks in various parts of the world suggest deep emotional commitment to these ideas. All the more reason, of course, to examine the claims more closely.

In this book I will examine the Greek claims as fully as possible and present the views of historians, linguists, and other experts who will paint a different picture for us. While there are histories and anthropological analyses of the Greek and Macedonian positions emerging at the present time, to my knowledge there has been no significant presentation of the other side of the argument outlined above, nor any analysis of how it fits into broader Balkan politics centered on Macedonia at the present time. Macedonian interest groups in various parts of the world have taken to the streets themselves, indicating their distress at what they say is a one-sided airing of the Macedonian question in the media. Like the Greeks, the Macedonians express a strong emotional commitment to their interpretation of the situation.

I do not claim to be unbiased, though in my examination of the evidence available to me I have tried to be as objective as possible. When I began my own inquiry about the topic, I wanted to know the truth. I began the process of discovery from a state of quite profound ignorance. I had talked with elderly Macedonian people about their lives, and about stories they remembered from the old days in Macedonia, and the things they told me often conflicted with the arguments of modern-day Greeks. I knew that these Macedonians, at least, thought of themselves as Macedonian long before the time of Tito. They told stories of Macedonian revolutionaries who, at the turn of the century, wanted a state separate from Bulgaria. They described how Bulgarian agents infiltrated the revolutionary movement and assassinated Macedonian leaders, and voiced a prevailing belief that Aegean Slavic Macedonians had been persecuted by successive Greek governments. But they told me little about the broader facts of the history of the Macedonians over the past two and a half thousand years. (Not many people deal with history in Macedonia as in Greece, to the Macedonian's shame, my comment)

My readings have established to my satisfaction the weakness of the Greek historical argument. It is also clear to me that national aspirations were alive and well in Macedonia long before Tito arrived on the scene. But by and large the Macedonians have had a pretty miserable time of it, dominated by one greater power or another for much of their history, a domination most recently perpetrated by the same European nations who were slow to support the Macedonians in the 1990s. As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it: “I know of two tragic histories in the world - that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland. A majority of them were Slavic speakers when Greece conquered a large part of Macedonia, taking it from the Turks, just before the First World War. Casement's rather eloquent lines by themselves must cause us to ponder Greek claims that a non-Greek Macedonia was merely a Communist invention."

I do not want to give any criticism to this book. I let the reader decide unbiasly!



Edited by Petro Invictus - 06-Dec-2007 at 01:50


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 01:56
WHO CAN CRACK THIS LINE:



CLUE: the name of the emperor...

OR in ancient Greek:



Edited by Petro Invictus - 06-Dec-2007 at 01:57


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 02:04
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Arxileas

Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Then the code must be reexamined!

Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!

Mary mother of Jesus. What absurdities is this LOL LOL LOL Open another thread, or re-start an old topic regarding the Macedonians Greek or not and we would be very, very happy to party with you Big%20smile Big%20smile Big%20smile


It's fun enough seeing you like this before me on this topic, I wouldn't like to give you more headaches...

And I am just an amateur! Who knows what a professional would make out of it?



What do you think of these professionals ?

Extracts from scholarly literature from FYROMian origin confirming the Greek ethnic character of ancient Macedonian society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)'We are not to be amazed that in the archaeological material of Pelagonia we have a rarely great wealth of reflections of all pronounced cultural events in the relations between middle-Danubian and Graeco-Aegean world'
Mikulcic,Ivan "Pelagonija",Skopje,1966,pp.2

'In a such great chronological distance in the life of ancient Pelagonia two stages are visible: development and existence in the frames of Hellenic culture and later the Roman one'

Ibid.,pp.4


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)'The lower part of Vardar is certainly the area south of Demir-Kapija gorge that entered Hellenic cultural sphere very early and already before 600 b.c. the material culture is thoroughly Hellenised.'
"The Valley of Vardar in Ist millennium b.c",Skopje,1982,pp.2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)'Even in the last decades of 5th century stabilization in all spheres of social life is established. As first sign of the new time import from Graeco-Macedonian south appeared as well as fortified settlements that later grew into urban centers with character of economic and religious nuclei of the region'
"Guide to the archaeological exhibition",Skopje,1996,pp.54


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)'For example,Pelagonia,which is naturally oriented to the South, was the first to be subjected to Greek influence, together with the lower part of Vardar'
"Archaeologic Map of the Republic of Macedonia",Skopje,1996,pp.71


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)'From the mountains of Epirus Dorian Makednoi (Macedonians) made their advance towards Macedonia, conquering the native tribes who latter gained new, Hellenistic culture and after that are politically organized into a powerful state'
"The Art in Macedonia",Skopje,1984 pp.26


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)'Paeonians,a people who during the first millennia b.c inhabited border area between the three great paleobalkanic peoples-Illyrians, Thracians and Hellenes'
Veljanovska,Fanica "An Attempt at Anthropological Definition of the Paeonians",Skopje,1994


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)'...Certain proto-populations occupying distinct areas of the Balkans could be distinguished on the territories of the cultural groups :in western part of the Balkans the proto-Illyrians, in the east the proto Thracians, in the south the Hellenes, in the northern part of the Balkans the proto Daco-Mysians and in the southwest of the Central Balkans the proto Bryges.'
"Bryges on the central Balkans in the 2nd and 1st millennium b.c." (summary)

"Arheologija" No 1,Skopje 1995


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8)'With the end of Iron Age III, i.e. with the total Hellenisation of material culture,the prehistory of Macedonia ends.'
Sanev,Vojislav "Prehistory of S.R. Macedonia",Skopje 1977,pp.13


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9)"The Art of Antiquity left in the region of Ohrid a great number of traces of its own presence.Illyrian forts imported goods from Greek centers and imitated them in a modest fashion. Political advancement of the Macedonians and their domination enabled cultural influx that manifested itself through products of crafts and alphabet. From the times of Phillip II deeper advances in the area of Lychnidos are attested.Cultural influences of the Graeco-Macedonian world are more present.Rich Hellenistic culture arrived at Illyrian soil"
"Ohrid" by Vera Bitrakova-Grozdanova ,in:"The Art in Macedonia" ,Skopje 1984, pp.85


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10)"With the increase of influences from developed cultured south and with the acceptation of Hellenic influences over Paeonia,which already in the V and IV centuries b.c.have committed great changes in the Paeonian culture, usage of Greek Pantheon was also accepted"
Petrova,Eleonora "Cults and symbolism of Paeonian tribes compared with the Illyrian and Thracian ones" in: "Macedoniae Acta Archeologica",Skopje No.13,pp.129

"Having the central position in this part of the Balkans,Paeonia,apart from receiving influences from the Hellenic south, wasn't an exception with regard to influences from Illyrian and Thracian sphere"

Ibid.,pp.134


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11)"Greek epigraphic monuments created before definitive Roman domination of our area are to be found in modest quantity"
Bitrakova Grozdanova,Vera "Hellenistic Monuments in S.R.Macedonia",Skopje,1987,pp. 130

"Study of the inscriptions speaks about epigraphic characteristics of the neighboring Macedonian-Hellenic world"

Ibidem. pp.103


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12)"During the early arhaic period at the Macedonian territory,the Dorian tribal groups came across over the Pindos mountain,to the area of today's North-Western Greece and parts of the southern Republic of Macedonia.They established several early principalities partially by chasing away the local Paeonian tribes.Those tribal groups were the ancient Macedonians"
"Macedonian Heritage",No 1,july 1996,pp.5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13)"The northern periphery of Greek world, inhabited with ancient Macedonians and other peoples and tribes, wasn't developed for democracy as the most developed social system at that time"
Mikulcic,Ivan "Ancient towns in the Republic of Macedonia",Skopje,1999,pp.9

"Our overview was exposed chronologically. The first part embraces the early antiquity in our country, the period from 5th century b.c. up to the middle 3rd century b.c.. Throughout this centuries one can follow the Hellenic spirit and the creation of the Hellenic civilization in our areas, which left a basic imprint on the material artifacts"

Ibidem. pp.10-11


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14)"The quantitative ceramic material used to be produced with the usual process including the labor of persons .Partly because of that, partly because of the traditions that had taken roots into our soil, which with centuries before that used to be watered with Hellenic spirit and Hellenistic way of life ,the use of the building ceramics had been brought to minimum"
Lilcic,Viktor "Building ceramics in the Republic of Macedonia during the Roman Period:Scupi,Stobi,Heraclea Lynkestis,Styberra",Skopje,1996,pp.120


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15)"In any case during the classical and Hellenistic periods and especially in the 4th and 3rd centuries b.c. we can no longer speak of Paeonian cult in the Peaonian region ,but of cults adopted by the entire Hellenic civilization, where through the material culture, elements of spiritual life from developed south were adopted. This was followed by the strenghtening of the autochthonous elements above all, the solar cult. Since Paeonians were centrally located in this region of the Balkans,they were influenced from the Hellenic south but they also couldn't avoid the influences from the Illyrian and Thracian sphere"
Petrova,Eleonora "The cults, symbolism and Deities in Paeonian and neighboring regions" in:

"Macedonia and the neighboring regions from 3rd to1st millennium b.c.-Papers presented at the international symposium in Struga-1997",Skopje,1999,pp.118

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