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Topic ClosedRosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

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Petro Invictus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text
    Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:21
Read again:

And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants.


I think they mean inscriptions from Macedonia here, not in Macedonian langauge!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:23
DECODING THE ROSETTA STONE: DEMOTIC TEXT



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:23
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

He says Hellenes ofcourse, but I use Greeks which is a more common term in English. I prefer Hellenes though, instead of Greeks, Griego, Yunan, Jawan, Yauna etc.


No in English Hellenes refers to the people inhabiting ancient Greece, and with Greek it means modern Greeks.

Hellenes is to Slav, like Greek is is to Macedonian. Compared in time: Hellenic and Slavic and Roman and Germanic were the terms used in the medieval and ancient times, and now after the nation building processes of the 18th, 19th and even 20th centuries, we have the modern Greek, and the modern day Macedonian, and French, and English.

So what you imply with Hellenes=Greeks doesn not comply with the follwoing:

Hellenic      [he-len-ik, -lee-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective 1.     of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the ancient Greeks or their language, culture, thought, etc., esp. before the time of Alexander the Great. Compare Hellenistic (def. 3).

adjective 1.     of or pertaining to Greece, the Greeks, or their language.
2.     pertaining to the Greek Orthodox Church.
3.     noting or pertaining to the alphabetical script derived from a Semitic form of writing and employing some letters that originally represented consonants for vowel sounds, which was used from about the beginning of the first millennium b.c. for the writing of Greek, and from which the Latin, Cyrillic, and other alphabets were derived.

BUT of course if you prefer "Hellenic" for you then I prefer "Macedonian" for me! :)

   


You need some lesson on basic Greek history...As written by the Ancients...

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=77668&region=7&subregion=20&bookid=21&caller=search&start=1763&end=1772

ἀφ οὗ Ἕλλην ὁ Δευκ[αλίωνος Φθι]ώτιδος ἐβασίλευσε καὶ Ἕλληνες [ὠν]ομάσθησαν, τὸ πρότερον Γραικοὶ καλούμενοι


and in modern Greek:

Αφού ο Έλλην Δευκαλίωνος της Φθιώτιδας βασίλευσε, Έλληνες μετονομάστηκαν αυτοί που προτύτερα καλούνταν Γραικοί.

Translation:
When Hellen, son of Deucalion, ruled in Phthiotis, those who were called Greki before, were now called Hellenes.

As you can see Greek is an older term than Hellenes. Greki were though the native inhabitants of Graia (and Boiotia + Phthiotis).

Ofcourse as Aristoteles the Macedonian Philosopher, again confirms, Greki is equivalent to Hellenes.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Greek





Edited by Flipper - 04-Dec-2007 at 23:29


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:25
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Read again:

And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants.


I think they mean inscriptions from Macedonia here, not in Macedonian langauge!


Now you "think". Before you used the context in another way... Angry


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:27
Flipper just remind you this article  that I wrote  as about the barbarian and its meaning in the Greek linguistics.
I am just add a abstract from Jonathan Hall(Hellenicity)
 
The fact is that what we term the Greek language was in reality a collection of myriad regional dialects. It is often assumed that these were mutually intelligible and that therefore the greater ease with which Greeks could have understood one another as opposed to speakers of other languages would have engendered a growing consciousness of a shared Greek language. Yet quite apart from the already noted lack of terminology to express such a consciousness prior to the fifth century, there are many documented instances within ethnolinguistic research which demonstrate clearly that dialect speakers are often able to comprehend dialects of another language group better than some dialects within their own language group. Literary evidence provides little explicit testimony for the difficulty or ease of communication between Greek dialect speakers (just as it is similarly reticent about linguistic interactions between Greeks and non-Greeks), though Thoukydides inability to understand the Eurytanes of Aitolia (3.94.5) or Plato's characterization of the Lesbian Pittakos dialect as 'a barbarian register (Protagoras 3410) offer salutary warnings.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:32
Originally posted by Flipper


Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Read again:

And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants.


I think they mean inscriptions from Macedonia here, not in Macedonian langauge!
Now you "think". Before you used the context in another way... Angry


No to the contrary, YOU USED IT in andother way!

I say that the Pella curse is writen in Doric which was spoken in Macedonia by that time, but it wasn't ancient Macedonian. And since it (Ancient Macedonian) exist as a separate language, no matter which gruop we put it in, whether Hellenic or proto-Slavic, the inscription from Pella is definitely not written in this langauge, but a DORIC.

And in one of your previous posts you said that the Pella curse was written in ancient Macedonian.

QUOTE:"By that time only 1 complete inscription written in another dialect was found (Pella katadesmos). However, 1 finding cannot verify that it was indeed the pre-attic language of Macedonia. The discovery of the oldest papyrus in europe (called the Derveni papirus) and the Arethousa tablet reveiled a dialect, close to Doric but still distinct. One of the problems now is if it should be grouped as Doric or under its own in a Hellenic group of languages."

What should be grouped as Doric or Hellenic, the DORIC from the Pella curse or the ancient Macedonian from the Chart you gave this comment about?

Originally posted by Flipper


Originally posted by Chilbudios

Very interesting, Flipper. So if I understand correctly they propose a Hellenic group (IEG), which is further split into Greek (IEGA) and Macedonian (IEGB) and Greek is further split into Attic (IEGAA) and Doric (IEGAB).
Yes...As late as two years ago it received the ISO code. Before that, it was indeed undetermined and had no ISO. By that time only 1 complete inscription written in another dialect was found (Pella katadesmos). However, 1 finding cannot verify that it was indeed the pre-attic language of Macedonia. The discovery of the oldest papyrus in europe (called the Derveni papirus) and the Arethousa tablet reveiled a dialect, close to Doric but still distinct. One of the problems now is if it should be grouped as Doric or under its own in a Hellenic group of languages. The linguist list has the same listing as well by the way: http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk


That was my comment!



Edited by Petro Invictus - 04-Dec-2007 at 23:37


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:42
Originally posted by Chilbudios

A good book on this topic is A. F. Christidis' A history of Ancient Greek from the Beginnings to Late Antiquity (I stripped parts of it with Google Books). A Panayotou signs the chapter entitled "The position of the Macedonian dialect".
 
 
 
A very good book, I have the Greek edition of 2002 (1500 pages) and explain a lot as about the Greek language and the dialects. The move of the Cambridge to publish this work explain a lot as about the quality of this volume.
 
 


Edited by akritas - 04-Dec-2007 at 23:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:43
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



No to the contrary, YOU USED IT in andother way!

I say that the Pella curse is writen in Doric which was spoken in Macedonia by that time, but it wasn't ancient Macedonian. And since it (Ancient Macedonian) exist as a separate language, no matter which gruop we put it in, whether Hellenic or proto-Slavic, the inscription from Pella is definitely not written in this langauge, but a DORIC.


It is through that tablet the Ancient Macedonian Language received its ISO CODE XMK...Dead



And in one of your previous posts you said that the Pella curse was written in ancient Macedonian.

QUOTE:"By that time only 1 complete inscription written in another dialect was found (Pella katadesmos). However, 1 finding cannot verify that it was indeed the pre-attic language of Macedonia. The discovery of the oldest papyrus in europe (called the Derveni papirus) and the Arethousa tablet reveiled a dialect, close to Doric but still distinct. One of the problems now is if it should be grouped as Doric or under its own in a Hellenic group of languages."

What should be grouped as Doric or Hellenic, the DORIC from the Pella curse or the ancient Macedonian from the Chart you gave this comment about?

Originally posted by Flipper



That was my comment!



And my comment was that more of the same were found and verified it...1 tablet is not enough. You need more than one and if you agree with that you should agree that a Slavic Rosetta is not enough eather. Embarrassed

Luckily you have the Derveni papyri, the arethousa tablet and many koine scripts having Doric breathings...That seems to have been enough to put IEG as a subgrouping code.




Edited by Flipper - 04-Dec-2007 at 23:45


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:44
Ξένος = Foreigner
Βάρβαρος = uncivilized, strange, subcultured, foreign, stuttering

"Barbarian" is a pejorative term for an uncivilized, uncultured person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos perceived as having an inferior level of civilization, or in an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person whose behaviour is unacceptable in the society of the speaker.


So we do not know whether Demosthenes was refering to Philip as barbarian, the stranger, belonging to the inferior ethnos, or just wanted to insult him!!!

However taking into account that Demosthenes was dealing with foreign affairs, and plus the fact that Macedonia was a KINGDOM not a city-state, plus the fact that the language that the Macedonians used was different from Doric or Ionic or any Hellenic dialects, plus the Rosetta stone Demotic text, point at the possibility that maybe ancient Macedonian was a separate language closer to the northern proto Slavic group, than the Hellenic group.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:50
Originally posted by Petro Invictus


However taking into account that Demosthenes was dealing with foreign affairs, and plus the fact that Macedonia was a KINGDOM not a city-state, plus the fact that the language that the Macedonians used was different from Doric or Ionic or any Hellenic dialects, plus the Rosetta stone Demotic text, point at the possibility that maybe ancient Macedonian was a separate language closer to the northern proto Slavic group, than the Hellenic group.



Every modern historian nowadays (Even Borza!!!) confirms that Demosthenes speech was of political character. You didn't answer me how you explain what the Spartans said about Athenians and what Aristotelis considered himself...

Moreover, Epirus was a Kindom as well...So was Sparta, Thessaly and many minor Hellenic states. Greece is not equal to Athens + Ionia.

Using a different dialect does not signify other language (Pontian is different than current demotic greek but still Greek). Very close to Doric but slightly different doesn't make it non Greek. If you say it is a fact it was different from Doric you conclude that from the tablets/papyrus somehow. That means that these written "non-Greek" (according to you) texts would be not readable by a Greek speaker (e.g like Thracian texts). However, when a person who can read ancient Greek is able to understand its context, is it still a non-Hellenic language?

And you speak of the "possibility" now that Ancient Macedonian was Slavic when some days ago or even today you were sure it was slavic. Don't forget that NOONE so far gives credit to such a theory...


Edited by Flipper - 05-Dec-2007 at 00:11


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 00:46
THE ISSUE OF ROSETTA STONE:

http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=704

"The Irish patriot Roger Casement, who had been executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland, put it: “I know of two tragic histories in the world - that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented”. For thousand of years, Macedonia had never been identified with specific and constant administrative or geographical borders."

Dramatically, the Rosetta stone Demotic text has risen such an interest as to the fact that the issue encompasses a large area of conflicting ideas, that have a history of their own. The research work of the two Macedonian scientists, may contribute further to the solution of this insane farse with the name of Macedonia.

This is a very good presentation of the reality behind the whole issue:

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea.html

Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21
Excellent analysis of the Macedonian-Greek conflict

http://david-edenden.blogspot.com/2007/04/macedonia-and-greece-by-john-shea-1997.html

Editorial Reviews

From Library Journal

In this unique book, we get the undiluted story of the Balkans in general and Macedonia in particular. Commenting on the tension between Greece and the new nation of Macedonia that has arisen out of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, Shea (Univ. of Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia) marvels at the Byzantine political games, is amazed at the lack of critical thinking skills, and reveals the truth (the whole truth and nothing but the truth). Shea selects the most significant historical points and analyzes them very carefully, commiserating not only with the Macedonians but also with the Greeks as he tries to point out the absurdities that are held together by pseudopolitical, historical, and religious values. He is concerned that Macedonia might become the scapegoat of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece. His comprehensive and objective account is recommended for academic collections.

John Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Library Journal

"unique...selects the most significant historical points and analyzes them carefully.... His comprehensive and objective account is recommended"

http://www.amazon.com/Macedonia-Greece-Struggle-Define-Balkan/dp/0786402288/ref=sr_1_1/002-6214362-1280042?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177468739&sr=8-1

QOUTE:

"Before I present my argument, I need to make a few introductory statements to establish the context of the discussion.

First, it should be noted that the Greek claims are a new political development. Just a few years ago the Greeks preferred not to use the name Macedonia at all. The Macedonian news magazine (Skopje, February 15, 1992, pp. 20-2 1) claims that "there were periods in Greece when use of the name 'Macedonia' was avoided with administrative measures. After the Balkan wars (191213) the area of Macedonia under Greek rule was called ... the 'New territory' while the Ministry in Salonika was called the Ministry of Northern Greece. Whence such zeal to pre-empt the names 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' today when so recently they avoided them as the devil avoids church?" Peter Hill, professor of Slavonic studies at the University of Hamburg in Germany, makes a similar point:

Funnily enough, northern Greece was for many years called just that, "Northern Greece"... and the name Macedonia was considered somehow suspect.... But three years ago that all changed. Now that name, Macedonia, is at the heart of it dispute that has paralyzed the foreign policy of the European Community and brought thousands of people on to the streets of Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Brussels.

Second, I have tried to present ideas that can be critically examined. I have tried to avoid insupportable claims, and have cited the sources from which I have drawn my conclusions. It seems reasonable to me to read the views of people who are experts in the field, and to adjust my own conclusions on the basis of some aggregation of what they have said. You might think that this matter could be dealt with quite simply by referring to such historical experts. But one of the problems is that the Greek "experts" often do not agree with the "experts" from other parts of the world. Not surprisingly, the Greek experts almost invariably take a nationalistic line. The ancient Greeks are said to have been imbued with a "mythic imagination." They tended to interpret historical events in the light of their understanding of the role of supernatural powers in their lives, and of course they were often inclined to present stories that showed Greeks in the best possible light. What could be more natural? It is hardly surprising that writers throughout the world do exactly the same kind of thing these days. Bulgarians and Serbians tend to favor views that support their own nations' historical perspectives about Macedonia. Sometimes, though, Greek writers have gone to such extremes that other historians have actually ridiculed their conclusions. I will give some examples later on. Thus it is necessary to tread very carefully amongst the expert opinions. For this reason when discussing historical issues I have tended to give preference to writers from Britain, France, Germany, and the United States. When dealing with contemporary matters I have given much greater emphasis to news sources and interpretations from within Macedonia. Generally these are about uncontroversial matters of recorded fact.

Third, in some ways this kind of analysis is little more than an empty academic game, since we have to talk in part about ancient history. It is not a very convincing exercise to justify the boundaries of modern states on the basis of things that happened more than two thousand years ago. Ancient historical claims seem of trivial importance beside the realities of the present day. To people who live in former English colonies, such as Americans, Canadians and Australians, a lot of these ideas seem very strange. After all, at the very least the Slavic speakers have lived for around 1500 years in the territory that has been called Macedonia. (Some historians present a more extreme position, claiming that the invading Slavs were really just the returning Paeones who had inhabited northern and western parts of Macedonia before the Macedonian kingdom existed.) They would not have had to wait 1500 years to be entitled to call themselves Americans, Canadians or Australians. They have been there at least as long as the Germanic tribes, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes have been in Britain. No one seems to think it a problem that the English use a Celtic name, "Britain," for their land. So we have clear examples of this sort of thing happening elsewhere in the world without any necessary belittling of the original peoples and their historic achievements. However, we have to recognize that rationality may have little influence in matters of national pride. Nonetheless it can be argued that the Macedonians, by virtue of 1500 years of occupation, have a pre-eminent claim to the place and to the name, regardless of who lived there 3000 years ago. And that is precisely the case for recognizing the right of Macedonians everywhere to call themselves by that name today. Of course I will make the longer historical case too."

- To this I would like to add that the Topic presented here, does not intend to support or deny any theoretical standpoint, but tends to present a factual discovery of a method for decoding an ancient script (Demotic), from Egypt, at the time when it was ruled by the Macedonians.

The issues it rises can get as far as politics, but that is something that should be kept out of this forum for sure.

Therefore I suggest we go back to the study of the script and decoding the real contents of the Demotic text and see which language reveals!

Could it be such a perfect fraud!?!

You must admit, that these pseudo-scientists (as you call them) are really clever guys to devise such a perfect way to crack the Demotic text in a language that would be Slavic!

What issues it rises, again, is not to be debated here!

So, please...




Edited by Petro Invictus - 05-Dec-2007 at 01:13


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:17
Originally posted by Flipper



[QUOTE=Petro Invictus]
No to the contrary, YOU USED IT in andother way!

I say that the Pella curse is writen in Doric which was spoken in Macedonia by that time, but it wasn't ancient Macedonian. And since it (Ancient Macedonian) exist as a separate language, no matter which gruop we put it in, whether Hellenic or proto-Slavic, the inscription from Pella is definitely not written in this langauge, but a DORIC.

It is through that tablet the Ancient Macedonian Language received its ISO CODE XMK...Dead
And in one of your previous posts you said that the Pella curse was written in ancient Macedonian.


Then the code must be reexamined!

Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:33
Originally posted by Petro Invictus



Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!




So what evidence of a "Macedonian" language do you have? This mysterious "decoding" of the Rosetta Stone? No serious historical institution has made any changes to what has been known about the scripts. Ex. Just read what the Smithsonian scholars said (I posted their essay).


Here why don't you examine excerpts from 80 different modern historians on the Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians.
So far you have dodged all my posts on the comments made by the ancient historians and the likes.

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/






Edited by chicagogeorge - 05-Dec-2007 at 01:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:47
Oh Ancient Macedonian has so much been preserved in my modern day Macedonian, you should read my poetry...:)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:49
"Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians"



How about the Turkishness of all the Balkan nations!?!

How absurd?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:52
Originally posted by chicagogeorge





Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!

So what evidence of a "Macedonian" language do you have? This mysterious "decoding" of the Rosetta Stone? No serious historical institution has made any changes to what has been known about the scripts. Ex. Just read what the Smithsonian scholars said (I posted their essay). Here why don't you examine excerpts from 80 different modern historians on the Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians. So far you have dodged all my posts on the comments made by the ancient historians and the likes.http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/


THEN ANSWER THIS TO ME:

Could it be such a perfect fraud!?!

You must admit, that these pseudo-scientists (as you guys call them) are really clever guys to devise such a perfect way to crack the Demotic text in a language that would be Slavic!

What issues it rises, again, is not to be debated here!

So, please...

And what a ridiculous link:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

How about some ancient authors about the Macedonianiousness of the ancient Macedonians!

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

And some cultural notes...

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/

Edited by Petro Invictus - 05-Dec-2007 at 01:59


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:56
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

"Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians"



How about the Turkishness of all the Balkan nations!?!

How absurd?




Do me a favor then. Translate the meaning of the word Makedon(ian) in your language. What does it mean?Wink

Translate Thessaloniki in your language

Pelagonia
Emathisa
Kastoria


Should I conitnue?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:09
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by chicagogeorge





Originally posted by Petro Invictus


Because the Pella curse was written in Doric, which was in use in Pella, but certainly not Macedonian! And if you received the code from such a source than it would be very WRONG indeed!

So what evidence of a "Macedonian" language do you have? This mysterious "decoding" of the Rosetta Stone? No serious historical institution has made any changes to what has been known about the scripts. Ex. Just read what the Smithsonian scholars said (I posted their essay). Here why don't you examine excerpts from 80 different modern historians on the Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians. So far you have dodged all my posts on the comments made by the ancient historians and the likes.http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/


THEN ANSWER THIS TO ME:

Could it be such a perfect fraud!?!

You must admit, that these pseudo-scientists (as you guys call them) are really clever guys to devise such a perfect way to crack the Demotic text in a language that would be Slavic!

What issues it rises, again, is not to be debated here!

So, please...



There are literally hundreds of sources that prove that Slavs did not migrate into the Balkans until the 6-7th AD. So you please.......


This "theory" on the Rosetta is about as historical as.......

"Ancient Turkish is the language of the Etruscans by another electrical engineer POLAT KAYA, M. Sc. E. E.LOL

http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/lemstelea.html




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:13
We have different names! Solun, Sveta Gora, Voden, Strkovo, Postol...

Makedonija means the Home of the Great Mother Dea, at least that is what the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone says, and it has a mythical significance to those who identify with it!

To me Macedonia is the land where the very soul of the Earth, springs up in torrents from the mountain peaks, and the steady sound of vastness of space lures you to a deep indulgence into your own Cosmos to discover the Truth!

The Truth is One for all!

To me Macedonia is the "bellybutton of the world" that connects me to Mother Earth!

Macedonian to me means: the Keeper of the Sun! It means Guardian of the Holy Grail of the Kingdom of Macedon, it means a fairy tale, that might one day come true.

To me Macedonia is an inspiration and an everlasting fountain of joy and happiness. I love Macedonia's wine. I love its food. I love to stay up late and watch the silver sky and see the peaks lurking from behind.

I am the Orpheus of my modern motherland and my name is Macedonian.


...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...
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Petro Invictus View Drop Down
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Joined: 23-Nov-2007
Location: Macedonia
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 02:15
This "theory" on the Rosetta is about as historical as.......


THEORY!?!

Have you checked any of the work by the professors?

Now I hate to do it again but obviously you are a new commer here so:



...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...
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