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The genetic sequences of Japanese.

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The genetic sequences of Japanese.
    Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 09:06

"C3c (M48, M77, M86) Typical of Northern Tungusic peoples, Kazakhs, Oirats, Kalmyks, and Outer Mongolians, with a moderate distribution among Southern Tungusic peoples, Inner Mongolians, Buryats, Tuvinians, Kyrgyz, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Karakalpaks, and Tajiks"

"In human genetics, Haplogroup C3 (M217, P44) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup mainly found in indigenous Mongolians. Haplogroup C3 is the most widespread and frequently occurring branch of the greater Haplogroup C (M130). One particular haplotype within Haplogroup C3 has received a great deal of attention for the possibility that it may represent direct patrilineal descent from Genghis Khan."

"In addition, the C3 haplotypes found among North Eurasian populations appear to belong to a different genealogical branch from the C3 haplotypes found at a low frequency among East and Southeast Asians, which suggests that the marginal presence of C3 among modern East and Southeast Asian populations is not due to recent admixture from Northeast or Central Asia"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C3_%28Y-DNA%29

Its irresponsible to claim majority of modern Korean are of "Mongol heritage" due to the expansion of Mongols in the 13-14th century, the predominance of O2 and O3 and absence of C3c haplotypes in modern Korean population does not support such claim.

C3c is also not found among Chinese and Japanese, which suggests both were not genetically "altered" by Mongol expansion, what makes you think Korean who also lack C3c haplotype is an exception?

to claim "majority of modern day Korean are of Mongol heritage" is simply too far fetched.



Edited by The Charioteer - 08-Dec-2007 at 09:09
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  Quote ricecake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 09:38
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:34
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  Quote ricecake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 03:19
 
No specific details or genetic percentages noted in the book.
 
Actually,it was former AE forumite " stupidumboy " disclosed this fact here in one late 2006 posting.He's 3rd generation Korean of half Han-Chinese ( paternal side ).He wrote,it's recorded in Chosun Dynasty Annals that Mongol occupation altered native gene pool by 35%  ( population was 4 millions at that time ).I can't find some of his old posts & threads anymore,must be already auto-deleted.
 
He also supported Mongol origin for most modern day Koreans.He battled Korean ultra-nationlists in Korean-language forums,and well known there as S Korea-born ethnic Chinese.I don't see ny reason he would've lied on Koreans' behalf if they're truly northern Han-Chinese descendants NOT Mongol heritage.
 
 
Today's northern Han-Chinese poulation genetically related to Koreans because of Mongol & Tungusic origins.Koreans DO KNOW,online Sinophobic trolls venomously denied it tho.
 
Mongol Xianbei tribe completely assimilated into Han Chinese since Tang was established. There were no longer any record about Xianbei since Tang in Chinese history. In fact, it was Xianbei's own willing of Sinization led to this result. The "self-Sinizing" process took place almost a century before the foundation of Tang. The process was not only assimilation of blood, but also cultures.I surmise that, if you're a Han Chinese, chances are you have a small fraction of Mongol Xianbei blood.
 
 
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 04:37

Originally posted by ricecake


 
No .. just broad overview of Korean origins,no specific details or genetic percentages noted in the book.

so the claim "majority of modern day Korean are of Mongol heritage" is not supported by any genetic studies.


Actually,it was former AE forumite " stupidumboy " disclosed this fact here in one late 2006 posting.He's 3rd generation Korean of half Han-Chinese ( paternal side ).He wrote,it's recorded in Chosun Dynasty Annals that Mongol occupation altered native gene pool by 35%  ( population was 4 millions at that time ).I can't find some of his old posts & threads anymore,must be already auto-deleted.
 
He also supported Mongol origin for most modern day Koreans.He battled Korean ultra-nationlists in Korean-language forums,and well known there as S Korea-born ethnic Chinese.I don't see ny reason he would've lied on Koreans' behalf if they're truly northern Han-Chinese descendants NOT Mongol heritage.
 
again, so no genetic studies in support of such claim.
 
Today's northern Han-Chinese poulation genetically related to Koreans because of Mongol & Tungusic origins.Koreans DO KNOW,online Sinophobic trolls venomously denied it tho.
 
Haplotype O2b is typical of Korean but is not found among Chinese, haplotype C3c is typical of Tungusic peoples and Mongolian but is not found among Korean and Chinese.
 
besides the previous claim of Mongol heritage for majority of modern day Korean population, you now need to provide genetic studies which support this claim that Northern Han Chinese genetically have Mongol and Tungusic origins as well.
 
Mongol Xianbei tribe completely assimilated into Han Chinese since Tang was established. There were no longer any record about Xianbei since Tang in Chinese history. In fact, it was Xianbei's own willing of Sinization led to this result. The "self-Sinizing" process took place almost a century before the foundation of Tang. The process was not only assimilation of blood, but also cultures.I surmise that, if you're a Han Chinese, chances are you have a small fraction of Mongol Xianbei blood.
 
again, no haplotype C3c is found among neither Korean or Chinese. when it comes to the study of human genetics you can not surmise for it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 16:09

Haplogroup O3 is a descendant haplogroup of haplogroup O. Some researchers believe that it first appeared in China approximately 10,000 years ago. However, others believe that the high internal diversity of Haplogroup O3 indicates a late Pleistocene (Upper Paleolithic) origin in South China or Southeast Asia of the M122 mutation that defines the entire O3 clade, while the common presence among a wide variety of modern East and Southeast Asian nations of closely related haplotypes belonging to certain subclades of Haplogroup O3 is considered to point to a recent (e.g., Holocene) geographic dispersion of a certain subset of the ancient variation within Haplogroup O3. The spread of these particular subsets of Haplogroup O3 is conjectured to be closely associated with the sudden agricultural boom associated with rice farming.

Among all the populations of East and Southeast Asia, Haplogroup O3 is most closely associated with those that speak a Sinitic, Tibeto-Burman, or Hmong-Mien language. Haplogroup O3 comprises about 50% or more of the total Y-chromosome variation among the populations of each of these language families. The Sinitic and Tibeto-Burman language families are generally believed to be derived from a common Sino-Tibetan protolanguage, and most linguists place the homeland of the Sino-Tibetan language family somewhere in northern China. The Hmong-Mien languages and cultures, for various archaeological and ethnohistorical reasons, are also generally believed to have derived from a source somewhere north of their current distribution, perhaps in northern or central China.

Haplogroup O3 probably appeared in China 10,000 years ago and its spread is closely associated with the spread of rice farming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O3_%28Y-DNA%29

origin and migration of haplogroup O3
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html?card=my057

archaeological evidences support early origin of rice farming in southern China

Z. Zhao, a Chinese palaeoethnobotanist, hypothesizes that people of the Late Pleistocene began to collect wild rice. Zhao explains that the collection of wild rice from an early date eventually led to its domestication and then the exclusive use of domesticated rice strains by circa 6400 BC at the latest. Stone tool evidence from the Yunchanyan site in Hunan province suggests the possibility that Early Neolithic groups cultivated rice as early as circa 9000 BC. Crawford and Shen point out that calibrated radiocarbon dates show that direct evidence of the earliest cultivated rice is no older than 7000 BC. Jared Diamond, a biologist and popular science author, summarizes some of the work done by professional archaeologists mentioned above and estimates that the earliest attested domestication of rice took place in China by 7500 BC.

One early findspot of rice from Pengtoushan in the Hupei basin was dated by AMS radiocarbon techniques to 64005800 BC (Zohary and Hopf 2000), but most of the Neolithic sites in China with finds of charred rice and radiocarbon dates are from 5000 BC or later (Crawford and Shen 1998). This evidence leads most archaeologists to say that large-scale dry-land rice farming began between 5000 and 4500 BC in the area of Yangtze Delta (for example Hemudu culture, discovered in 1970s), and the wet-rice cultivation began at approximately 2500 BC in the same area (Liangzhu culture). It is now commonly thought that some areas such as the alluvial plains in Shaoxing and Ningbo in Zhejiang province are the cradle-lands of East Asian rice cultivation[8]. Finally, ancient textual evidence of the cultivation of rice in China dates to 3000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice

Haplogroup O3 is found on average over 50% and up to 80% of certain subgroup in Han Chinese, rather than Mongol and Tungusic origin which the typical is haplotype C3c.

Distribution of Haplogroup O3
 
Haplogroup O2b (SRY465, M176), is found almost exclusively among the Koreans, the Japanese, and the Manchus.

The Northeast Asian Haplogroup O2b suggests a very interesting sort of relationship between the Tungusic, Korean, and Japanese peoples. Haplogroup O2b's parent haplogroup, Haplogroup O2*, appears to have been thinly spread throughout East Asia since prehistoric times. The derived Haplogroup O2b* (M176) is found at low frequency across the populations of the whole of Greater Manchuria, including the Tungusic, Korean, Japanese, and even the Daur people, who speak a Mongolic language that has traditionally been considered to have derived from an ancient dialect transitional between the Proto-Mongolic and Proto-Tungusic languages. One major subbranch, O2b1* (P49), is shared between the Korean and Japanese populations (with a significantly higher STR diversity among the Koreans), but its distribution does not reach the Tungusic or Daur peoples to the north. Finally, the most derived subbranch, Haplogroup O2b1a (47z), is essentially restricted to the Japanese population, although it has sporadically been detected in a few individuals who reside within the extent of the erstwhile Great Japanese Empire, in which cases it is believed to represent minor admixture from male Japanese soldiers or civilians into the local populations within the last several generations; patrilineal descent from a Japanese visitor or immigrant to some of these lands during earlier historical times is another possibility. This "nested" hierarchical and region-specific distributional pattern tends to suggest the following sequence of events:

1) The M176 mutation that defines the O2b Y-chromosome lineage first arises on an ancestral O2* chromosome belonging to a man who already resides within Greater Manchuria, or who at least already belongs to a specific "proto-Tungus-Korean" tribe.

2) Sometime after the proto-Koreans have branched off from the other populations of the Greater Manchurian region, the P49 mutation that defines Haplogroup O2b1* arises in a proto-Korean male, whose lineage becomes very successful and increases in number among the prehistoric proto-Korean population.

3) One regional subgroup of the proto-Koreans distinguishes itself from the others either culturally or by physically migrating away from their proto-Korean brethren. After the split from the greater proto-Korean population is complete, the 47z mutation that defines Haplogroup O2b1a occurs in a male of this now proto-Japanese population, who produces many male descendants and increases the frequency of the O2b1a lineage among the proto-Japanese. This very specific Haplogroup O2b1a lineage now occupies about 42.5% of the total of Haplogroup O lineages, or about 22.0% of all Y-chromosomes, among the modern Japanese, which probably reflects extreme hegemony of a certain close-knit clan in the history of the Japanese people.

In addition to suggesting a phylogenetic relationship between at least a subset of the ancestors of the Tungusic, Korean, and Japanese peoples, the distribution of Haplogroup O2b and its subbranches also argues strongly against any significant intermingling of any of these peoples during historical times.

Both Haplogroup O2a which is found predominantly among the Austro-Asiatic peoples of South and Southeast Asia and Haplogroup O2b which is almost exclusively associated with Korean, Japanese and Manchus are descendant branch of Haplogroup O2 which first appeared probably in southern China, this might explain why

Originally posted by Siege Tower

i remember a while ago, some japnese scientist claimed that Japnese ancesters were migrated from Yunnan.

The phylogeography of Haplogroup O2b suggests a very ancient origin in Manchuria, followed by a long period of isolated evolution and population increase within the Korean Peninsula

Haplogroup O2b branched off sometime with Haplogroup O2a, low frequency of Haplogroup O2a can be found among today's Han Chinese(with higher frequency among Southern than among Northern Han population) population due to contact with southern peoples carrying O2a, up to 63% among Thai and 36% among Zhuang population.

however, Haplotype O2b is not found among Han Chinese(northern + Southern samples)

This haplogroup is found with its highest frequency and diversity values in the modern population of Korea and are absent among Chinese populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_%28Y-DNA%29

Distribution of Haplogroup O2b
 
 
correlated with the absence of Haplotype C3c (which is typical of Tungusic peoples and the Monglian) among Korean and Chinese,
 
Distribution of Haplotype C3c
 
 
 
makes such claim like this
Originally posted by ricecake

Today's northern Han-Chinese poulation genetically related to Koreans because of Mongol & Tungusic origins

is not substantiated by the current studies of Human genetics.

hence, calling any disagreement to this sort of claim as

Originally posted by ricecake

online Sinophobic trolls venomously denied it tho.

is also not substantiated.



Edited by The Charioteer - 11-Dec-2007 at 08:27
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 14:43
 

Edited by The Charioteer - 11-Dec-2007 at 14:45
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  Quote ricecake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 23:12
 
First time,Korea tops " most dislike nation " & Japan @ distant second according to one latest online public survey in China
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 00:06
Back to topic.
 
Some historians and archaeologists claimed the Yayoi people were descendant of the refugees from Ancient Chinese Wu Kingdom in current Shanghai ,ZheJiang and Jiangsu region. They brought with them their technology (fabric-making and farming). And they were able to reach to Japan due to the strong ocean current starts from South-Eastern coast of China to southern tip of Japan . It was recorded in Chinese historical record that the Chinese once sent an envoy to Japan during 200 -300 AD, when they asked the Japanese about their origin, the Japanese replied" We are descendant of the Ancient Wu Kingdom".
 
The following Japanese website explains further in detail:
 
 
(Note the Japanese couple are wearing Kimono or Gofuku, which literally translated as "Costume of Wu", to symbolize the return of Kimono to its original birth place upon visiting the Wu Region in China.)
 
 
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 01:07
The Evenki, Manchus, Koreans, and Japanese are all considered to be mainly Tungusic, while the Mongols are considered to be mainly from a different stock. I think that this racial classification has been done mainly by linguistics. Maybe this new genetic study will make some racial re-classification necessary. The Evenki seem to be more closely related biologically to the Mongols than to the other Tungusic peoples.
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 01:09
Originally posted by The Charioteer

 


O2b, which originated in North-East part of China, is found in Vietnamese while it is not found in Northern Han Chinese? How accurate is this diagram?
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 01:35
It does have a curious distribution. It's found in the Manchus (from Manchuria in northeastern China) and also in the Koreans and Japanese. All 3 of these peoples are considered Tungusic (at least partly). It's interesting how it doesn't occur in the Han, but then occurs in the Vietnamese (Kinh) far to the south in Southeast Asia.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 21:45
Windmere,
 
Are you referring to 02B?
 
I find it interesting/inconsistent too.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 02:19

Why do media agencies write such sensationalist articles regarding DNA and nationhood?

After reading the article I have a few questions.

 - What is "Chinese" DNA

 - What is "Korean" DNA

 - Is there even such a thing as a nation having its own "DNA"

The article gives the idea that Japanease are actually 25% Chinease, 25% Korean and only 5% Japanease.

Now is it me, or it this just plain ridiculous. I mean nations are made up of various peoples, tribes, clans who have united under a common language, culture, bond, historical ties etc Arn't Japanease Japanease because they speak Japanease, are from Japan, have a common culture, bond and history?

So what has DNA got to do with this?

Also why is the title such a sweeping comment, the results represent the sample, shouldn't the title be the genetic sequences of some Japanease peoples genetic sequences show...

How far do the results match different parts of Japan? if your from a region that recieved some migrants a few centuries ago how does it represent them?

Wouldn't it be more scientifically accurate to state, in Japan from the results conducted the findings were alot of so and so genetic markers were found. Instead of, Japanease arn't actually Japanease they are really just Chinease and Koreans with a bit of Japanease in them racially Confused

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  Quote ricecake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 07:01
Originally posted by Bulldog

Instead of, Japanease aren't actually Japanease they are really just Chinease and Koreans with a bit of proto- Japanease in them racially Confused

 
Exactly .. both Japanese & Chinese are fine with that SmileClap,it's those Sinophobic S Koreans online trolls refuted it TongueShocked.
 
 intermarriage rate between Japanese & Chinese and Koreans are 50% or greater of annual " out-marriages " in Japan today.LOL
 
 
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 17:58
Bulldog,
 
Yes, it is ridiculous.
 
You don't see this kind of stuff in most countries.  Mainly in East Asian countries.  Sad.
 
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 19:01
Originally posted by Bulldog

Why do media agencies write such sensationalist articles regarding DNA and nationhood?

After reading the article I have a few questions.

 - What is "Chinese" DNA

 - What is "Korean" DNA

 - Is there even such a thing as a nation having its own "DNA"

The article gives the idea that Japanease are actually 25% Chinease, 25% Korean and only 5% Japanease.

Now is it me, or it this just plain ridiculous. I mean nations are made up of various peoples, tribes, clans who have united under a common language, culture, bond, historical ties etc Arn't Japanease Japanease because they speak Japanease, are from Japan, have a common culture, bond and history?

So what has DNA got to do with this?

Also why is the title such a sweeping comment, the results represent the sample, shouldn't the title be the genetic sequences of some Japanease peoples genetic sequences show...

How far do the results match different parts of Japan? if your from a region that recieved some migrants a few centuries ago how does it represent them?

Wouldn't it be more scientifically accurate to state, in Japan from the results conducted the findings were alot of so and so genetic markers were found. Instead of, Japanease arn't actually Japanease they are really just Chinease and Koreans with a bit of Japanease in them racially Confused

 
The topic of the origin of Japanese has sparked many controversy for years historically and academically and if you do not frequent East Asian-oriented Forum probably you would not grasp the complicity of it.  One of the reason is there are right-wing Japanese group who believe Japanese are entirely free of foreign genetic influence and deny any genetic link with its Asian mainland counterpart. On the other hand, there are Korean group who claimed Japanese are descended from them and Korean was the one found the Japanese Yamato Dynasty. Finally, the the legend of Xu Fu has been stamped on  the mind of Chinese and Japanese for thousand years which many Chinese do think Japanese are their kinsmen. Each group is trying to instill their thought on one another.
 
So it is really hard to account for why it is so controversial.
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 20:57
Jiangwei,
 
Yes , haplogroup 02B is the one I'm referring to. The previous poster (Killabee) noticed its unusual distribution also.
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  Quote Moonstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 04:00

Hello, everyone!

Just thought I would mention that haplogroup O2b is also found in Thailand. Although haplogroup O2a is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in that country, up to 5% of Thai samples have been found to belong to haplogroup O2b. Frankly, I think it is a total mystery at this point how this haplogroup could be found in Manchuria, Korea, and Japan and then not found at all for thousands of miles until you reach Vietnam and Thailand.
 
Also, someone seems to have left the minority of Japanese samples that belong to haplogroup O2a out of the pie charts. Besides haplogroup O2b, haplogroup O2a is also found in slightly less than 5% of Japanese samples. Haplogroup O2a is generally not found in Korea, but it does appear at low frequency (approx. 1%) among Manchus and northern Han Chinese, and at much higher frequency (approx. 15%) among the Daur, a minority population of northern China that speaks a very divergent Mongolic language. Haplogroup O2a is also found in somewhere between 5% and 15% of the Han Chinese population of southern China (south of the Yangtze River), too; the frequency varies depending on the samples of each study.
 
Overall, however, the highest proportions of haplogroup O2a have been found among the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nicobar Islands, a territorial possession of India that is located just south of the Andaman Islands and just north of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, and among the aboriginal inhabitants of Orissa state in eastern India. The Nicobarese aborigines and the Juang people of Orissa, India are nearly 100% haplogroup O2a. The Korku people in central India (Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra states) are also about 80% haplogroup O2a.
 
As for haplogroup O2b, the highest frequencies are found among Japanese and Koreans (up to 40% among some samples of Koreans and up to 35% among some samples of Japanese), but the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z, whereas among Koreans it is mostly O2b1*(x47z); in other words, most of the Japanese haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes have a further mutation that is absent from the majority of Korean O2b Y-chromosomes. This distinction between the Korean variety of O2b and the Japanese variety of O2b seems to be quite sharp; only about 5% or fewer Koreans belong to the typically Japanese O2b1a (versus about 22% of Japanese; however, frequencies among Korean samples vary from approx. 0% to approx. 12% for this subclade, suggesting a possibility of significant regional variation within the Korean population in regards to the occurrence of haplogroup O2b1a), and the same proportion of Japanese (about 5%, but varying from approx. 2% to approx. 7% depending on the sample) belong to the typically Korean subclade, O2b1*.
 
Also, it seems that the haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes found in Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Thailand, etc.) are divided between haplogroup O2b1*(x47z) and O2b1a-47z, just as the O2b Y-chromosomes found in Korea and Japan are divided between these two subgroups. This suggests that the 47z mutation that defines the (typically Japanese) haplogroup O2b1a-47z should have occurred prior to the interaction(s) that brought haplogroup O2b1* and O2b1a to their present locations in Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, and Korea. The O2b Y-chromosomes found in Manchuria, however, apparently belong only to haplogroup O2b*(xO2b1), which suggests that these haplogroup O2b ancestors split off and migrated into the ancestral Manchurian population prior to the emergence of the subclades, O2b1 and O2b1a.


Edited by Moonstone - 08-Feb-2008 at 04:03
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2008 at 16:18
The pie charts are made up by some Chinese poster (Charioteer). The frequencies of the haplogroups are very inaccurate.
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