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Sun Tzu View Drop Down
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Posts: 362 		  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Thread to End All Threads
    Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 03:56
[QUOTE=Mughal e Azam]
I dont know - we'll see. When the Arabs spread, everything was arabized. The Persians persianized and the Turks turkized.

First of all, the Arabs had an easy time "Arabizing" during their conquests because most Byzantines were dissillusioned with their government. Most of them were eager to accept anyone who had lower taxes regardless of creed. Secondly when the Turks occupied Greece and the Balkans,Orthodoxy was much more common than Islam. So Arabs will never conquer the world with Religion. Of course this is history but history has a funny way of repeating itself.

Plus I am Rome centric because my country is based on the principles of Western Civilization. If you go to Washington D.C. There are many Roman and Greek influences in the architecture, and government. America is an ocean away from Greece but still maintains it principles of freedom, somthing not even the mighty Ottoman empire can boast with just occupied territory from Vienna to Hyderabad.

sorry for the novel, but I have one more thing to add here's an equalizaer to tell which empire is best and none can lay claim to this.

Are any still in physical existence??

Edited by Sun Tzu - 17-Jan-2009 at 04:00
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Posts: 19 		  Quote dud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 16:30
Originally posted by Mughal e Azam

For all you "Roman" centered freaks. Tongue
 
Notice how many nations were bigger than Rome. Both Persian Empires and multiple Chinese empires had more people under its belt than Rome did. tee hee hee.
 
I agree with Mughal. The Roman empire, though it did have some truly impressive qualities, would not, in my opinion, outrank say, Song Dynasty China (not sure how long they lasted but I think more than 150 years). They invented paper currency, and inflation too! (there is an amusing story behind it). They had the meritocracy/bureaucracy from Han times. There main problem was that they lacked precious metals for currency. In 1550, a population record says that France (the most populated European country) had a population of 17 million, the Ottoman Empire had a population of 25 million, while Ming China (the next dynasty after the Song) had a population of a staggering 200 million people. A few Chinese cities had a population equivalent to all of Europe's. Despite Westernized textbooks, Chinese armies were MUCH, MUCH larger than Roman armies.  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:05
Originally posted by Spartakus

There are the political empires, but also the cultural ones. Ancient Hellens were not one vast political Empire, but ,most certainly, they were a cultural Empire.
 
Do you mean civilizations?
 
Yes, some Civilizations are based on Empires. Others are groups of small states, usually city-states. The later is the case of the Mayan civilization, the Greek civilization and also the Italy of the Middle Ages, all of which are considered some of the TOP civilizations in the world.
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Originally posted by Mughaal

Not forgotten; they were taken into account but the Inca lasted less than 100 years (if you seperate from Kingdom of Cusco).
 
The Aztec were not that big (smaller than modern day Mexico). They would be on the list, only if the list was expanded to say 70.
 
Actually by your definition, the Aztecs would also be excluded... they didn't gain independance from their Toltec patrons until 1428, and their kingdom was destroyed in 1521, slightly less than a hundred years later.  Also, they were more an Empire in the looser sense of, there was Tenochtitlan and the towns immediately around it, then there were the "provinces" who were basically independant and just sent tribute so the Tlatoani's men wouldn't come for them.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 16:02
There are the political empires, but also the cultural ones. Ancient Hellens were not one vast political Empire, but ,most certainly, they were a cultural Empire.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 572 		  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 13:15
agreed mughaal, who can predict the future, nobody in the history of this planet, without a good slice of luck.
 
What happens when this generation is gone and buried will have no relevance, we will not be here to see it.
 
As long as my wife, parents, brothers, friends, and the town i live in  are ok and happy, these struggles truely mean nothing atall.
They are somebody elses problem.
 
 


Edited by longshanks31 - 03-Dec-2007 at 13:17
long live the king of bhutan
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 05:45
Persian. Tee hee hee.
 
Persian was spoken in Sassanid Iran. It was replaced by Arabic as the lingua franca. During the Samanid Empire Persian made a resurgence written in Arabic Script.
 
During the rule of the 3 Turkish empires Persian was the lingua franca from Vienna to Hyderabad; from Al' Jazair to Toshkent.
 
Anywho no one can predict the future.


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:35
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 02:35
Yeah, the bilingual signs in America are for first-generation immigrants- the children are all obligatorily enrolled in the public school system, where they are required to ESL (English as a Second Language) classes... Just like 90 years ago when there were mass influxes of Eastern Europeans, Jews, Italians etc... The parents kept the old ways. The kids all learned to speak English and became as (if not more) American than the 'native' Americans. Look at the celebrity names of the 1950's..
Joe Di'Maggio (second-generation Italian)
Frank Sinatra (Italian)
Humphrey Bogart (Dutch)
Yogi Berra (Italian)

Prominent Gangsters such as Meyer Lanskey (Jewish)
Bugsy Siegel (founder of Las Vegas- Jewish)
Alphonse Capone (Neapolitan)
Charles "Lucky" Lucciano (Sicilian)
Nothing is more "American" than the Mob

Yiddish Immigrants invented Vaudeville, etc.

Though the west gets rocked by waves of immigration all the time, it has yet to collapse in the face of these so-called "passive invasions."

The period of Arabic extension was over 1,000 years ago. Latin and Greek never made resurgences... where's the past precedent for language groups becoming prominent again?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 02:05
Originally posted by Mughaal

Originally posted by pinguin

Conquest by immigration?

"In Rome do as Romans"
 
Not if Romans treat you like second class crap. See Paris Riots. Chechnya-Kosovo vs Russian Empire.
 
....
 
For example, im in SW USA. Do you know that advertisements in magazines are bi-lingual? one in english; then in bottom spanish subtitles.
They accept Mexican Pesos in some pizza joints in Dallas and San Antonio.
Some road signs have both english and spanish.
 
Basically by 2030 it will be neccessary to have bi-lingual signs over the nation.
 
immigration + overpopulation.
 
the democratic discussion was in spanish too. first time.
 
Well, I am a Latino and I really doubt that the United States is going to become a Mexico of the 19th century...
If anything, Mexico has changed a lot more under the influence of the United States rather than the other way around. And there is only 1 million of Americans there. Yes, it is true there still exist a fierce defense of folklore and traditions in Mexico, but when you see the teenagers what do you think they like?
 
Music in English!
 
In Mexico and Latin America in general there is a fascination for everything of U.S. origin. The main aspiration of these countries is become as rich as the U.S. to produce music as good as the American, the same kind of movies and live in the same kind of cities. Religion? Nah, that is for old people. In many places only old people go to the church. In the countryside of Mexico and all over Latin America, the country people uses American blue jeans and hats, with scotish patterned shirts, and dress theirs traditional clothes only in party days.
 
One in four Americans will be Latino pretty soon, but in the process they have already learn English and know the American culture a lot better than the Anglo Americans thinks.
 
And when they come back to the land of theirs ancestors... they speak English LOL
 
Even more, in the Spanish networks the adds of English courses are widespread. Wink
 
 As I said before, "In Rome do as the Romans", or go back, I would add.
 
As for Americans learning Spanish, it is nothing strange people know the language of the neighbours countries. In Hispanic South America many people know Portuguese, in Brazil a lot speak Spanish, and in Canada quite a lot know French. I don't believe that will change the United States though, and I doubt Spanish will become a second official language in the U.S.
At the same time in Latin America is English which is making more inroads and the billingual population is also growing. And U.S. Hispanics are usually very proud of .... speaking English LOL
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 03-Dec-2007 at 02:32
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 01:38
Originally posted by pinguin

Conquest by immigration?

"In Rome do as Romans"
 
Not if Romans treat you like second class crap. See Paris Riots. Chechnya-Kosovo vs Russian Empire.
 
Then you have a "Barbarians at the Gates" scenario. Same thing happened to Sassanid Empire. A bunch of nobodys conquered Iran from Baghdad to Bukhara.
 
Conquest by immigration is real. In America they now have bi-lingual road signs. The Democratic Debate was held in Spanish. What more do you want?


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:34
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 01:32
I dont know - we'll see. When the Arabs spread, everything was arabized. The Persians persianized and the Turks turkized.
 
Its natural to understand that language is a medium. As i understand it Chinese arent really taught European languages unless they especially enroll for them.
 
They hold their board meetings in Chinese language. They need translators when Western diplomats arrive. The Indians speak English - but there is Sanskritization process.
 
We will see. One idea to note is that the Indians and Chinese have many people. I think they will risk (and their goverments will welcome) war with bordering nations to spread or annex their boundary lines.


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:33
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Posts: 572 		  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 00:29
mughaal get with the times, bollywood is already popular here, you should know that we are a nation of immigrants.
 
second generation immigrants here drive there parents nuts with turning there backs on the old culture for the new, ie more brits,
 
i suspect this is the same the world over.
 
There are countries in the arabian penninsula with vast populations of hindu workers, are they now culturally indian?
 
If europeans bred like flies and started flooding the islamic world, are you saying your culture and language would finish?
 
This is crazy talk and it discredits you, i wish you had not said it, i had great deal of respect for your posts,
not to worry, i will leave it there, im well informed on the facts of this so there is nothing of concern.
turn on the news.
long live the king of bhutan
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:56

Conquest by immigration?

That's impossible. It will never happened. The local society accept foreigners up to the point it can manage and reprogram theirs minds, otherwise cut the flow.
 
Yes, first generations keep strongly the traditions of theirs former lands, but newest generations usually don't want anything to do with the land of theirs parents, particularly if they are perceived as backwards by the mainstream.
 
That's something we know pretty well in Latin America. You can't conquest by immigration. Or, like the old Western saying says:
 
"In Rome do as Romans"
 


Edited by pinguin - 02-Dec-2007 at 23:57
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:50
Modern Western Thinking is Subjective. The same thing can be said of the Turkish spread during the "middle ages" of the Christian calendar.
 
Things come and go in waves.


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:30
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Posts: 818 		  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by Mughaal

no. i predict arab tounge.
   
Hmmm... Terrific! Are we are going to start predicting stuff around here? If i could come up with a statement that would certainly not alleviate everyones concerns, then this would be the one?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:37
Culture impossed by the number of people? In that case the mainstream of culture would be Chinese, Indian, Muslim or African, but it is not. The West is the dominant culture and the rest addapt to it.
 
Muslims dominating by numbers? That's an interesting idea. However, it doesn't mach the historical reality.
The West is accustommed to win and imposse its culture against people that are more numerous than themselves. That has been the common pattern of the West during three thousand years.
 
Otherwise you won't explain how such a small people like the Greeks (that even today are only 10 million people) could spread its culture all over Europe and the New World, and that now most people of the world have some patterns of them.
 
The plain truth is simple to see. The West has always look weak, but at the end always succeed in imposse its ideas.
 
At least, that's the way people in the West see things.
 


Edited by pinguin - 02-Dec-2007 at 23:41
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as long as you have no hopes for this then you will not be disapointed.
 
History displays quite vividly what happens when alien cultures stretch too far into the european fabric for comfort, and it has not been pretty.
The russian equally.
The abrahamic religions are being eroded and rejected as obsolete in europe, and many other places, and that is spreading, atheism/agnostic is the third largest and fastest growing belief in the world.
And high time too.
These things are antiques of a bygone age, like the roman and egyptian pantheons, so will the relevance of such be in the future, religions come and go.
On our watch, life will remain much the same, except oil will run out, where the terrorists are decimation will follow, and the western/chinese/indian economic powers will continue to dominate.
happy times.
long live the king of bhutan
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 21:24
No, I predict arab tongue. More Muslims in Europe plus every other white person is either gay or doesnt want to have kids.
 
Muslims have like 5 kids per woman. You do the math. Russia is 17% Muslim. France is 10%. Eastern Europe is 10%. It will be a matter of time before Europeans are only 50% of their national population. By that time they will also be in the high up positions of society as they want to be the "top" of the crop to maintain their culture. The closest cheap labor for them is the Arabs in Africa. Those guys come in bringing in their grandmas, nieces, nephews and all.
I predict some political rebellion. All the European science and math is converted into Arabic so the masses can understand and there you go.
 
Although I also believe we will have a secular wave of culture - it will still have elements of the Arab tounge and Persian methods of doing things because its too long ingrained.
 
Or maybe India will grow exponentially and spread all over the world.


Edited by Mughaal - 11-Mar-2008 at 10:08
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Posts: 572 		  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 17:21
The future belongs to bhutan
long live the king of bhutan
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 17:18
Originally posted by Mughaal

When Muslims take over the world; it will be the Arabic tounge and Persian customs.
 
Wherever Islam goes; Persian customs follow closely behind; for some reasons.


Wacko what a very strange post...
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