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Topic ClosedGreece vs Turkey

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Pretorian
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greece vs Turkey
    Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 15:33
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Pretorian
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 15:42

 Bizantium and ottomans

 turkey and greece 1913-1922

 cyprus problem

 aegean  borders

 lets talk about all....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 16:16
Yeah umm when you press the "new topic" button you may actually want to try mentioning a topic. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 16:28


Guys:

an invitation to keep this discussion under the rules of the Code of Conduct.
Topics like this has always started very bitter discussions between our turkish and greek members.

Regards
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terörist

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 16:44
Hmm.....This topic will end to an awful debate,that's for sure.And the result?Members get banned.Moreover you have pointed out too many and large subjects in only one topic which is quite impossible to avoid misunderstanings. 
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 16:58
"Hmm.....This topic will end to an awful debate,that's for sure.And the result?Members get banned."

i agree. im not sure if we should start this at all.
Pray as if everything depended upon God and work as if everything depended upon man.
-Francis Cardinal Spellman
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 13:02

first question: CYPRUS

what rhe best solution? REUNIFICATION and indepedent state? OR

                                   PARTISION between  greece and turkey?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 15:17
Well, it all started, basically, with Darius I's
subjugation of Scythia, Thrace and Macedon in 512 B.C.
Darius I had barely heard of the land known as Hellas, and
deemed them insignificant. His empire, founded by Cyrus I, the
Great
, was hitherto the greatest and best administered the world
had seen.

I also realize the Turks and Ottomans did not exist yet, but I still find
significance.

Around 505 B.C. a dictator of Athens, Hippias, who had been
deposed by revolution, fled to Darius I's satrap in Ionia - the
city of Sardis, specifically. Hippias begged the Persians in
regaining his power and offered, in that event, to hold the territory of
Attica under Persian rule. A timely provocation occured to this in 500
B.C. The Greek cities of Asia Minor, under Persian hegemony for the
previous half a century, dismissed their satraps and declared
independence. Aristagoras of Miletus received Athens' aid, but
not Sparta's. These Ionians acted with vigor, and raised rebel troops
from town to town. Sardis was burned to the ground. However, the
Ionian contingent was overtaken at Ephesus by the army of
Artaphrenes, and was soundly beaten. Athens had supplied
some 20 ships, but now withdrew from the conflict. Despondent,
Aristagoras fled to Thrace. The revolt ended disatrously on
land for the Ionians, but it spearheaded one of the greatest and most
decisive of world conflicts.
A fleet was organized in 494 B.C. to stand up to the Persian naval
blockade of Miletus, the Ionian capital, but the traitorous Samians
and Lesbians sailed away without fighting (they felt the revolt was
alost cause, and were probably preventing Darius I's wrath
upon them if they had stoos with the Ionians), and the Ionians were
routed off the island of Lade and Miletus was sacked.
In 492 B.C. Darius I set out to punish Athens for her
interference with the Ionian revolt. Under Mardonius a fleet of
600 ships sailed across the Aegean, but was turned back by a horrific
storm. History is full of peculiar twists like that. The following year
Datis was charged witht he same trek. He reached the island of
Euboea, which he subjugated in less than a week. In 490 B.C.,
Datis' forces landed in Attica on Hippias' advice, as the
open plain would be conducive to their cavalry, in which they were
overwhelmingly superior to the Greeks. They pitched their camp near
a town called Marathon, about 25 miles northeast of Athens. All
Greece was in turmoil at this news; the Persian arms had never been
stopped, and how could a nation so small and scattered hold back
such a confident and able force?
An army was assembled (slaves were conscripted) under
Miltiades. They marched across the mountains to Marathon.
The command was divided, and the Spartans were tardy, but
Miltiades united discipline and courage within the army, and
won the battle known as the 'birthcry of Europe', and an earnest of
things to come.......

I do agree the issue with Greece/Turkey is a sensitive one, as
Spartakus and white dragon have astutely pointed out; I have
seen some terrible altercations in person and, mostly, on chat sites.
It is understandable - both sides have a history of enmity towards
each other. As a 'neutral', I can enjoy the study of the history without
angst etc. (not to connote that this is an advantage).
Anyway...
The Greeks did win their independence from Mahmud II in
1827, but intervention from the naval squadrons from Great Britain,
Russia and France proved invaluable. Mahmud II had much
help
from Egypt (the great Pasha Muhammed Ali). It was the calling
of Egyptian help to qeull the Greek revolt in 1825 (Mahmud II
couldn't suppress the Greeks the previous 2 years) that alarmed the
European powers, but war is never without precedent. Russia actually
declared war on Turkey, as there was also much bad blood between
them. The Battle of Navarino, in which much superior allied ships
blasted the Egyptian/Turkish force to the bottom and ran the rest
aground, was the last pitched naval battle fought between wooden
sailing ships.

Thanks, Spartan (JKM)
"A ship is safe in the harbor; but that's not why ships are built"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 15:50
I think reunification is the best solution now. The EU should be the unifying force between the two sides.

Greek Cypriots did massacre Turks during the junta regime but that time period is over now and Greece is in the EU, Soviets are gone...The Turkish army has no reason to be there anymore.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 22:50

And also the Turkish army slaughtered many Greek Cypriots. Please do not make a stab at one side then quickly retreatt back to peace talk. Don;t say anything about it then.

Cheers

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 07:49

Originally posted by Turk


Greek Cypriots did massacre Turks during the junta regime but that time period is over now and Greece is in the EU, Soviets are gone...The Turkish army has no reason to be there anymore.

Not only during the junta regime. Turks suffered during 1963-1974 period.

I am also thinking that the reunification would be the best solution. But Turks and Greek should be very very careful. We should have very good relations and we have to understand that this would be our biggest interests.

My fears about the unification is related with the map below. Cyprus is stuated in a very strategical position and "some circles" may want to create a social tension there to come into the islands. In that case Greeks and Turks would be only idiots and will become a puppet in their country named Cyprus. 

The pipelines would be a very strategic  tools and they would be vital especially for Russia. "Some circles" who want to control oil, natural gas routs and so that Russia will be around there.

This is very very dangerous. We (Greeks and Turks) should be careful about the situation and see the facts. Nationalistic approaches to the issue can nothing more than a manipulation.

Reunification or partition? I think the first one may be the good option but the "solution" should be based on realities that would prevent any clashes in the future. (In fact I am not so sure about it.) Eventhough I do not have any sympathy to Papadopoulos he may be right about his concerns. Otherwise todays' solution would become very serious problem in the future. We have seen many "created social clashes" in history and today. 

We have to come together and talk about the issue by taking into consideration the "energy issue".   



Edited by Alparslan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 08:34

I agree Alparslan, the re-unification idea is a good idea.  But the reality of it is that they would end up being someone's puppets and possible clashes would start again by outside instigation(spelling?).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 01:14
A government similar to Lebanon's government would be good for Cyprus. Its' real test would be: to maintain stability after an eventual Syrian pullout.
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Arch Duke
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 07:03


Edited by TheDiplomat
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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Spartakus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 07:49
Nice pic.But there are many obstacles in order to be a reality.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 18:15
Let's see, one of the above pictures is about friendship and the other is a statement of military might, I assume. I guess we know where the obstacle to peace on the island is from.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 07:39
Be more specific without any innuendos please.....
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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terörist

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 08:36
Not to mention that they aren't two pics above but three in case you did not see it.You have forgotten that pic with the 2 black hands holding a crystal ball with the Turkish flag in the shape of Turkey.But of course you did not see it,did you?Now,as you saw you are not in a position to make such innuendos so i suggest you won't do it again.You cannot help it.....
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 14:59
Thanks for telling me what I can't do, my fellow. What else?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 16:05
For now, nothing more....
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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