Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

conference on WWII

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
youngredboy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote youngredboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: conference on WWII
    Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 16:53

Hello on this website you will find 2 videos on WWII

1) "the myth of the good war" by J.R. Pauwels
it's about the real role of USA in the world war.

2) "the choice of defeat" by A. Lacroix-Riz,
about how the french elite prepared the occupation by nazy germany.

click on the left "videos" button in the menu or search through the research bar.

www.jeunessecommuniste.org

the videos are currently in french language, but we hope to have an english version soon



I hope you will enjoy!

www.jeunessecommuniste.org
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 22:20
The link doesn't work but for the sake of it what are the main points of these conferences. What do the jeunesses communistes have to say about WWII?
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
youngredboy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote youngredboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 23:04
These autors are one of the few that talk about the real role of america in world war II(pauwels n general), and the elite of france that chose in secret to sell france to nazis( Lacroix-riz). They confirm the socialist theories about inter-imperialist fights, to destroy soviet union by putting to power fascist regimes. For exemple, the pauwels conference is about to say that all we learn in west world is lie: US wanted to destroy soviet union and didn't want to fight fascism. They had to in the end cause they didn't have another choice.
also we claim that it is only soviet union that destroyed nazis despite the problems of capitalists countries that helped more fascists than soviet union.(USSR=  over 26 000 000 dead in WWII// USA = about 115 000 dead in WWII on both fronts)

Who won the military war ? USSR

by the way Lacroi-Riz is communist and does a real professional work.

sorry for the link , don't take it too hard.

www.jeunessecommuniste.org

this one should work


So you are  from corsica ? Salut e paz ! (or something like that..) so you speak french also, o how did you find the videos???

see you.
www.jeunessecommuniste.org
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 23:39
I must say I don't really have the patience to see these videos of which I expect little to be frank. All this sound like childish conspiracy theories to me.

But out of cheer pity I will answer you.

1) The fact that the US (as well as France and the UK by the way) were keener on attacking USSR than nazi Germany is hardly fresh news.  But they've been dragged in the war by Pearl Harbor, nothing allows us to think they would have made the first strike against USSR after the failure of the 1918-1921 strategy of support provided to the whites.

2) The 26 millions of dead is a vast joke. The truth is that Stalin didn't want and anyway was utterly incapable if interested at all to count the number of victims. Basically for him the bigger the better, having enormously suffered during the war was a wonderful argument in the post-war negotiations.
The figure is still uncertain. Anywhere between 15 and 20 millions remains a good guess. Besides, this anyhow astronomical figure testifies as much of the mercilessness of the fascists in Russia, the courage of the Russian soldiers as of the imbecility of the early Soviet commanders (most of the losses where due to the first six months of the fight and some dramatic failures of the Soviet commanders such as the destruction of the Popov army corp in 1943).
Besides it would be interesting to know if this figure includes the Soviet soldiers killed during the invasion of Poland in 1939 and during the Winter War. Similarly it would be interesting to know if it includes the dramatic fate of those who supposedly helped the Germans (POW, their families, Chechens).

3) Who won the war? Who had the more to lose? The Yanks didn't fight for their survival, it is only normal for them to have invested less. Then again ask the Eastern European if they are so keen to have been liberated by the Soviets.

Regarding the theory according to which France was offered by its elite to Nazi Germany it is a sheer joke. The potential alliance between a couple of idiot and the Nazis is possible but that doesn't mean it was widespread. Most of them were hard core nationalist and catholic two very good reasons not to be too keen of the Nazis.
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
youngredboy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote youngredboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 00:05
i desagree with the 2 point  it's a shame of you every family in russia has lost at least one person. because of the war.


Yeah america won economically, but military only USSR defeated the nazis.


there are different subjects so or administrators split them , so we can have a normal conversation , or this will end not properly.

Your english is very good for a frenchman!
 see you.

You can think what you want about conspiracy theories. These historians finds facts, and there really good in their work.

I can understand that it's not so usual to see these wrks for the first time, but some will understand things. You can read their books an make an idea for yourself. Pauwels is very easy to read and give a lot of references. Lacroix-riz is more academic, so in one sentence you have about three quotes.

You know in france , the commun people think that USSR didn't fight during the WWII. So you can understand that those theories that I showed are kind of in the way for the french elite.
www.jeunessecommuniste.org
Back to Top
youngredboy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote youngredboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 00:07
"Regarding the theory according to which France was offered by its elite to Nazi Germany it is a sheer joke. The potential alliance between a couple of idiot and the Nazis is possible but that doesn't mean it was widespread. Most of them were hard core nationalist and catholic two very good reasons not to be too keen of the Nazis."

bizeness is bizeness.
www.jeunessecommuniste.org
Back to Top
Peteratwar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 591
  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 11:37
seem another occasion where Communist Youth rewrites history.. This used to be considered something of a joke many years ago 
 
Bothered to consult any more books ?


Edited by Peteratwar - 21-Nov-2007 at 11:38
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 23:28
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I must say I don't really have the patience to see these videos of which I expect little to be frank. All this sound like childish conspiracy theories to me.

But out of cheer pity I will answer you....


I do believe it is important to refute these sorts of ideologically motivated revisionist histories that have no, or a weak, basis in reality.  The claim is that the US was more interested in fighting the Soviet Union, and in fact didn't want to fight fascism / Nazism.  Yet, in fact, it was the Soviet Union itself that was allied to Nazi Germany, and supplying them with critical raw materials that otherwise would have been denied to them by the Allies' blockade.  While the Soviets were greatly assisting the Nazi's, the US administration was 'bending the rules' as far as they could get away with in order to help the British fight against Nazi Germany. 

So, inspite of pathetic and inaccurate attempts to make it seem as though the Soviets were against the Nazi's and the US was not, the fact is that it was the other way around up until the Nazi's betrayed their erstwhile 'ally' with the invaision in 1941.  Once both the US and the USSR were at war with Nazi Germany, the US provided considerable material assistance to the USSR (i.e. Lend Lease).  Further the American military leadership 'allowed' the Red Army to occupy territory in Germany and Eastern Europe that the Americans could easily have gotten to first if they had been interested in forestalling the Soviets.  It was only later, when the Stalin started to overtly break previous commitments he had made that the US 'turned against' the Soviet Union. 
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 23:55
Originally posted by deadkenny



So, inspite of pathetic and inaccurate attempts to make it seem as though the Soviets were against the Nazi's and the US was not, the fact is that it was the other way around up until the Nazi's betrayed their erstwhile 'ally' with the invaision in 1941.  Once both the US and the USSR were at war with Nazi Germany, the US provided considerable material assistance to the USSR (i.e. Lend Lease).  Further the American military leadership 'allowed' the Red Army to occupy territory in Germany and Eastern Europe that the Americans could easily have gotten to first if they had been interested in forestalling the Soviets.  It was only later, when the Stalin started to overtly break previous commitments he had made that the US 'turned against' the Soviet Union. 
 
There never was an "alliance" between USSR and Nazi Germany. Both of them considered the Pact of 1939 just as uncomfortable, yet very convenient arrangement. Nobody, really was thinking that that "peace" would last forever.
 
But if you want to consider the origins of signing the pact, you should examine in debts the overall situation in Europe in the late 30th. Including the bertrayal of Czechoslovakia and Munich pact, that was actually the similar thing as a Molotov Ribbentrop pact, but made by the West in that case.
 
Never did Stalin thought that Nazis were better than French and English, however, the latter simply prefered to ignore all the attempts of the USSR to to create anti-German alliance.
 
That's why it's stupid to say that only USSR is solely responsible for Molotov-Ribentrop pact. The very chance for conclusion of that pact became possible only due to the irresponsible position of the Western powers.
 
However, I don't think USA was really willing to invade USSR so much. USA simply didn't care and wanted to stay away from the war.
 
But, honestly speaking, American companies were keeping doing business with Nazist even after the war had started. Few know that the accounting devices which Nazist used in Osventsim and Buhenwald were made by IBM.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 22-Nov-2007 at 00:08
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 00:05
Originally posted by Maharbbal



2) The 26 millions of dead is a vast joke.
 
Vast joke... How can you be so sure. It's not a joke but a very possible and tragic reality. Most of these victims are Soviet civilians killed on the occupied territories including Jews.
 
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Besides it would be interesting to know if this figure includes the Soviet soldiers killed during the invasion of Poland in 1939 and during the Winter War. Similarly it would be interesting to know if it includes the dramatic fate of those who supposedly helped the Germans (POW, their families, Chechens).
 
No this figure doesn't include these casualties. It includes only Soviet military and civilian deaths as a result of the conflict from 22.06.1941-09.05.1945
 
Casualties in the Winter War were about 125-145 thousands. Casualties during the invasion to Poland were insignificant, since there were no any serious fighting between the Soviet army and Polish forces. Anyway, they are not incuded in this number.

Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 00:13
Originally posted by Sarmat12

There never was an "alliance" between USSR and Nazi Germany. Both of them considered the Pact of 1939 just as uncomfortable, yet very convenient arrangement. Nobody, really was thinking that that "peace" would last forever.


Well, they both 'cooperatively' invaded Poland and divided it between them.  The Soviets supplied Germany with critical war materials, even helping to obtain them in the east and shipping them to the Germans when they (the Soviets) themselves couldn't supply the materials (e.g. rubber).  The Soviets even allowed the Germans to refuel their ships at Murmansk for operations in the extreme north.  You may want to play semantics and call it a 'pact' but not an 'alliance', but IMO if the shoe fits....



Originally posted by Sarmat12


But if you want to consider the origins of signing the pact, you should examine in debts the overall situation in Europe in the late 30th. Including the bertrayal of Czechoslovakia and Munich pact, that was actually the similar thing as a Molotov Ribbentrop pact, but made by the West in that case.
 
Never did Stalin thought that Nazis were better than French and English, however, the latter simply prefered to ignore all the attempts of the USSR to to create anti-German alliance.


I'm very well aware of Britain and France's 'betrayal' of collective security at Munich in particular.  However, the fact is that Britain in particular was serious about stopping Germany after the March 1939 blatant violation of the Munich Agreement by Germany.  It was still the Soviets that chose to make the deal.  The previous actions of Britain and France does not absolve the Soviets of responsibility for their actions.


Originally posted by Sarmat12

That's why it's stupid to say that only USSR is responsible for Molotov-Ribentrop pact. The very possibility for conclusion of that pact became possible only due to the irresponsible position of the Western powers.


I never said that the USSR was 'solely' responsible, however, it was their action so clearly they are largely responsible for it, and the outcome of it.


Originally posted by Sarmat12

However, I don't think USA was really willing to invade USSR so much. USA simply didn't care and wanted to stay away from the war.
 
But, honestly speaking, American companies were keeping doing business with Nazist even after the war had started. Few know that the accounting devices which Nazist used in Osventsim and Buhenwald were made by IBM.


Sure, there were no doubt unscrupulous businessmen prepared to 'deal with the devil' in order to make a buck - however, I was speaking to the position and actions of the US administration, not the business community.
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 00:18
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Maharbbal



2) The 26 millions of dead is a vast joke.
 
Vast joke... How can you be so sure. It's not a joke but a very possible and tragic reality. Most of these victims are Soviet civilians killed on the occupied territories including Jews.


I've seen lower estimates, in the neighbourhood of 20 million.  However, it is still a huge number.  Yes it obviously includes civilian deaths as well - the German occupation was quite brutal.  Even for groups not specifically targeted for extermination, such as the Jews, there were huge numbers of deaths due to policies of deliberate starvation.  I for one do not agree with 'belittling' the suffering or losses of the peoples of the Soviet Union, even if I find their regime partially culpable due to its support for the Nazi's earler in the war.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 00:36
Originally posted by deadkenny



Well, they both 'cooperatively' invaded Poland and divided it between them.  The Soviets supplied Germany with critical war materials, even helping to obtain them in the east and shipping them to the Germans when they (the Soviets) themselves couldn't supply the materials (e.g. rubber).  The Soviets even allowed the Germans to refuel their ships at Murmansk for operations in the extreme north.  You may want to play semantics and call it a 'pact' but not an 'alliance', but IMO if the shoe fits....

 
It's only YOUR opinion again. The fact, that Nazist got some strategically important goods from the US doesn't make it the ally of the Nazist Germany.


 
 
Originally posted by deadkenny



I'm very well aware of Britain and France's 'betrayal' of collective security at Munich in particular.  However, the fact is that Britain in particular was serious about stopping Germany after the March 1939 blatant violation of the Munich Agreement by Germany.  It was still the Soviets that chose to make the deal.  The previous actions of Britain and France does not absolve the Soviets of responsibility for their actions.
 
Yes, that's right USSR is responsible for the Pact, but why it was signed?
 
What would happened if Pact would be signed? May be there wouldn't be WWII? This is only one scenario. Another one which is actually more possible is that USSR would be destroyed by the combined Western attack.
 
Not only Britain and France but even Poland destroyed all the efforts to conclude the defence alliance.
 
I actually made a long posting about the origins of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact before and I want to post it again now:
 
USSR had an agreement with Czechoslovakia of mutual assistance concluded in 1935 . However there was one important condition in the agreement; the agreement could be executed only in case that France helps Czechoslovakia as well.

In 1938 Germany demanded Sudet region from Czechoslovakia.

 

On September 19, 1938, England and France transferred the declaration to the Czech government that the German demands to Czechoslovakia mush be met in order to avoid the whole European war.

On September 30, 1938 the Munich agreement was concluded by Britain, France, Germany and Italy.  Nor Czechoslovakia nor USSR were invited to the settlement.  Sudety region was transferred to Germany. 4 powers gave guarantees to the new Czechoslovakian borders.  Soviet-Czech agreement became obsolete. On March 15, 1939 Germany occupied Czechoslovakia. No reaction followed from England and France.

More over, Minister of the Foreign Affairs of England Edward  Halifax noted to the French ambassador in London, that England and France got compensatory advantage by ridding off the burdensome guarantees to Prague.

 
On October 24, 1938 Germany expressed its territorial demands to Poland, Poland refused.

 

Prime-minister Nevil Chemberlain announced that the British Government would support Poland at any case.


In March France promised to attack Germany with its main land forces in case of war, while England promised in may to provide 1300 military aircrafts to Poland in case of war and start the bombardments of Germany.

 

We all know how these promises were fulfilled. Western states simply bertrayed Poland.


The fate of Czechoslovakia convinced USSR that French and English guarantees were too unreliable. As Churchill wrote (unfortunately I dont have English original, so I have to translate it back into English from Russian): "Munich and other have convinced the USSR that England and France wont fight until they are attacked and even in that case, their wouldnt be a lot of help from them."

 

Nevertheless, on April 17, 1939 Moscow offered to England and France to conclude Anglo-Franco-Russian treaty of mutual assistance with the following contents:

 

1.       England, France, USSR conclude the agreement for 5-10 years for the mutual assistance to provide immediately all the help including military assistance in case of aggression against each of the contracting states

2.       England, France and USSR oblige to provide all the assistance including military assistance to the Eastern European states located between the Baltic and Black Sea and bordering with the USSR in case of aggression against these states.

 

3.       England, France and the USSR oblige each other to discuss and establish the forms of the military assistance provided to each of these states according to paragraphs 1 and 2

 
4. English government clarifies that the promised assistance means the aggression of Germany.

5. The existing agreement between Poland and Romania is declared effective in case of any aggression against Poland and Romania or is cancelled as aimed against the USSR.

 
6. England, France and USSR oblige not to enter in any kind of negotiations and not to make peace with aggressors separately from each other and without the consent of all the three states.

 

 

USSR was afraid of vague wording of guarantees which were provided to Czechoslovakia before; so it wanted to make the agreement as detailed as possible.

  

However, western powers were not willing to give such obligations. The responses to the Soviet proposal followed only on July 26.

 

The negotiations themselves started only on August 12. It turned out that French delegation headed by general Dumenc (again, since I'm using the Russian source I'm not sure about the correct French spelling of this name) had power only to lead the negotiations but not to sign any agreements. English delegation leaded by admiral Renginald Drax didnt even have any written powers at all.

 

Again, Churchill calls this situation "the failure of British diplomacy" and even writes that it was a humiliation for the Soviets do negotiate with such a low rank figure as admiral Drax, who even didnt have any powers at all.

British government still hoped to reach a settlement with Hitler, thats why the English delegations had received instruction to negotiate very slow and avoid concrete obligations.


These instructions also stated that the British government doesnt want to be involved in any kind of certain obligation which could "tie our hands under all the circumstances." Concerning the military agreement we should limit ourselves with the most general wording as possible - that what was written in these insturctions.

 

On the contrary the desire of the USSR was to conclude an effective military agreement was obvious. General Dumenc reported to France on August 17, 1939 that : There is no doubts that USSR wants to conclude a military pact and that it doesnt want to be presented by us with document without any concrete contents

 

Now, another aspect.

 

In fact, all the Eastern European states right before the war ,except Czechoslovakia were in authoritarian military dictatorships.

 

Polish foreign policy was aggressive in a very sense of this word.

 
In 1938, Poland threatened Lithuania with war in case of rejection to establish official diplomatic relations. The Lithuanians broke the relations with Poland after the occupation of the Lithuanian Vilno by the latter. Lithuania had to submit.
 
 Poland also took part in the aggression against Czechoslovakian republic and actively supported Furher as was stated in the official Polish communiqu on the results of the meeting between Polish foreign affairs minister Jozef Beck with Hitler on January 14, 1938.

 

Poland transferred its ultimatum to Czechoslovakia with the demand to give up Teshin region. Polish military units were involved in several clashes and attacks on Czech border guards and supported German separatists military formations.


On September 30, 1938 Polish military occupied Czech Teshin region.

As Churchills writes about this: Poland with the greed of hyena took part in the robbery and destruction of the Czechoslovakian state.

In Poland however this shameful act of aggression was regarded as a national triumph and Beck was awarded the order of the white Eagle for his achievements.

 

Besides, Poland was planning hostile actions against the Soviet Union

 

Report of the 2d intelligence department of the polish military headquarters dated December 1938, was saying: Partition of Russia is the foundation of the Polish policy in the East. Thats why our position in case of such partition is that Poland shouldnt be passive in such a historical moment. Our task is to prepare physically and spiritually. Our main task is the destruction and defeat of Russia

 

Specially for this  I give a source in Polish Z dziejow stosunkow polsko-radzieckich. Studia i materialy. T.III. Warszawa, 1968. S.262, 287

Moreover. Ribbentrop noted after the meeting with Beck on January 1939: Mister Beck didnt hide that Poland has claims in the Soviet Ukraine and want the access to the Black Sea.

 

In other words, it was clearly more than possible that Poland could take part in the German aggression against SU.

Now lets get back to the role of Poland in the negotiations between the West and SU.

 

In 1939 SU didnt have a common border with Germany; so it was unclear how Soviet troops could engage German army in case of military conflict

SU again offered very concrete terms of the possible transfer of the Soviet troops via the Polish territory. The zones of transfer were strictly limited by the Vilno corridor in the north and Galician region in the south.

 

General Dumenc writes that this proposal has an important meaning in the for the calming down possible fears of Poles, since these proposals had clear strategic grounds.

 

Again, I want to emphasize that the Soviet Army would move via the Polish territory only if Poland is attacked by Germany, or France is attacked by Germany.

 

However, Poland even didnt want to discuss any conditions of the transfer of the Soviet troops via the Polish territory. On August 19 Polish marshal Eduard Rydz-Smigly declared that: Regardless of the Consequences, Russian troops wont be allowed to occupy even one inch of Polish territory

 

What was wrong in the desire of SU to have concrete condition for the transfer of its troops through Polish territory?

 

There were 3 possible scenarios of the events:

 

  1. Germany attacks France. SU cant do anything because its cant help France without crossing Polish territory

  1. Germany attacks Poland, again SU cant do anything until Poland is defeated and German army reaches the borders of SU. Again, in this case possible reaction of England and France is not certain for SU, will they fight.

 3. Less realistic scenario scenario; but if Germany attacks SU through Baltic states and Finland, Western Allies and Poland, can simply ignore their obligations. However, if there is a part in the agreement allowing SU to cross Polish territory, it would be really hard for Poland to avoid participation at war.

 

Thus, Soviet suggestion had very concrete and reasonable. SU simply wanted to get as many guarantees as it could get from the West and Poland.  Again Western generals and agree that Soviet proposal was reasonable and had concrete practical meaning behind it.


 Churchill rights on this: Soviet demands according to which Russian armies could cross Vilno and Lvov should they were the allies of Poland were totally appropriate military demand.

 

Again, I want to emphasize that SU didnt pose any territorial demand to Poland, like Germany did to Czechoslovakia, it was only a demand to give concrete obligations of allowing the transfer of the Soviet troops to the front in case of war and nothing more.

Summarizing from this. SU saw that the West was very unwilling to conclude a concrete defense agreement.  Reasonable Soviet suggestions about the corridors through the Polish territory very categorically  denied regardless of consequences by Poles.

 

So what SU, should do?

 

Pretend that it is an angel and wait for the German attack? Without clearly knowing what will follow? How would Poland behave, how would the West behave? Even Churchill writes that he was not sure, whether Chamberlain government will fight in august 1939. And of course SU had even less understanding of British policy than Churchill.

 

SU had clear example of the bertrayal ofCzechoslovakia and hostile and unpredictable attitude of Poland, which besides had claims in Soviet territory.

 

Under these conditions, I dont see as unrealistic the scenario that Germany offers Poland some kind of settlement with the compensation of some Soviet territories in the East.

 

 At least it looked very possible in the Soviet eyes.

 

Again, this was the time that both the image of SU in the West and the image of the West in the SU was very dark. West would like to see Germany fighting SU. SU would like to the west fighting Germany.

 

So, Stalin decided that it would be better for SU to conclude a concrete agreement with Germany and save at least some time for the future war, instead of wasting the time on the fruitless negotiations with the Western allies and Poland.

 

I also dont blame Poland for fearing SU and having its own interest. It was valid for her to have suspicions about the SU. However, unfortunately for Poland, its overconfident calculations went wrong. Not only it was defeated by Germany, but the said territories in the East were lost. Germany proved to be more dangerous than SU.

 

Moreover Poland was betrayed by the West, which again proved that SU calculations about the dubious Western intentions proved right.

 

Again, I draw your attention to the fact that Stalin didnt actually helped Germany so much in the war with Poland. Stalin waited until the last moment, he was waiting for the western reaction, he thought that it perhaps wouldnt be very reasonable to invade Poland, should France and England actively support it. Nor Stalin nor Hitler had doubts that the Pact was a temporarily measure, and Stalin would think twice before attacking Poland, should the west supported it.

 

However, the west did nothing and Stalin convinced that his calculations were right and he loses nothing from that, gave the order to cross the Polish border.

 

Thus, Molotov-Ribbentrop was pact a very practical move in sense that was primarily made to secure some time before the inevitable war with Germany, or even to avoid the war with it. And it was indeed successful in this sense.

 

This in not to say again, that I support aggression against Poland, Baltic states and Finland. This was totally morally wrong.

 

But what I can say is that SU acted totally with accordance with the behavior of the other players in this game.

 

Britain and France, bought some time by betraying Czechoslovakia, SU bought some time by concluding disgusting Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (in fact the disgusting part was a secret protocol to the Pact, not the Pact itself). Poland took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia together with Germany, SU took part in the partition of Poland also together with Germany.

 

Everybody acted the same, for its own practical gain. And Pact did helped SU to delay the attack, may be it even helped to delay combined western attack on SU.

 

Another important detail is that there was another danger to SU, from the East-Japan. Japanese cabinet in 1939 was very willing to go to the war with SU. However, after the conclusion of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact the cabinet resigned, and Japanese switched their attention to the Pacific from Russian Far East.

 

This was another practical gain of the Pact for SU.






Edited by Sarmat12 - 22-Nov-2007 at 01:09
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 00:50
Originally posted by Sarmat12

It's only YOUR opinion again. The fact, that Nazist got some strategically important goods from the US doesn't make it the ally of the Nazist Germany.
....


Well, the rest of your post is only your opinion (again).  Again, the failure of France and Britain to support Czechoslovakia (note that only France actually had any treaty obligation to Czechoslovakia, Britain did not) does not make them 'responsible' for the Soviet Union concluding an alliance with Nazi Germany (which is exactly what they did).  France was looking for a way out, any way out, of having to fight a war.  Chamberlain (foolishly) believed that he had achieved 'peace' at the cost of some border territory along the Czech-German border.  That was proven very wrong by Hitler's actions in 1939, however, Stalin chose to conclude a treaty with Nazi Germany over one with France and Britain, even though it was clear that Chamberlain had changed his views and actions with respect to Hitler and Germany.  In the final analysis you can post whatever you want about Munich, it was still the Soviet Union that signed the treaty with Nazi Germany and collaborated with them until being betrayed by them.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 01:06
It seems that you actually didn't read my previous post since the biggest part of it is not about Munich but the attempted negotiations between England, France and USSR in the summer of 1939. Munich was just a part of the big picture.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 22-Nov-2007 at 01:10
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 00:35
Originally posted by Sarmat12

It seems that you actually didn't read my previous post since the biggest part of it is not about Munich but the attempted negotiations between England, France and USSR in the summer of 1939. Munich was just a part of the big picture.


Well, I might have more accurately said Munich, and the 'fallout' from Munich.  However I did quickly read through your post and it pretty much says much of the same things that I've already read in Churchill's The Gathering Storm, so there's simply nothing new there from my perspective. 

The fundamental point here is that the Soviet Union wasn't 'forced' to sign a treaty with Nazi Germany because of the Allies' stupidity.  It wasn't an either/or situation - it's not like the Soviet had to sign a treaty with one or the other.  They had the option to simply stand back and refuse to either attack Germany or to help them.  Chamberlain had issued 'guarantees' to the 'border' states between Germany and the Soviet Union - they had no common land border until they partitioned Poland between them in Sept. '39.  So there was no way for Germany to 'get at' the Soviet Union without  triggering a British guarantee, which means that Germany would have been at war with France, Britain and at least one minor country in addition to the Soviets.

But instead of taking the 3rd option, the Soviets signed a treaty with Nazi Germany and then supplied them and collaborated with them to a significant extent.  Although the Poles had no doubt suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of the Germans, they still had the option to withdraw to the eastern part of the country and drag out the campaign, while hopefully the French would eventually take some action in the west.  However, the Soviets took that option away by invading and occupying the eastern part of Poland in Sept., as Hitler was quite anxious for them to do. 

You can try to point the finger elsewhere as much as you want, however, the number one person responsible for the Soviets signing a treaty with Nazi Germany, and collaborating with them until June '41, was Stalin himself.


Edited by deadkenny - 24-Nov-2007 at 00:35
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 00:48
I don't even want to comment on this. You obviously didn't read my post where all the questions you raised were discussed in detail.
 
Of course, Soviet Union didn't have to sign the pact. But the thing is that it could easily be attacked afterwards by Nazis backed by the Western support (or may be even Polish support).
 
Stalin opted to invade Poland only when he saw that Western Allies bertrayed Poland (meaning that it would be too risky to rely on them as allies), although they clearly could support its stuggle by invading Germany from the West while most of its forces were in the East.
 
Also note that it was again Soviet initiative to negotiate about alliance with France and England in 1939. Why the negotiatione failed is discussed in my post.
 
I don't thing that Molov-Ribbentrop pact was a "positive" document. Definetely, it triggered the start of WWII in some sense. However, the responsibility for WWII is shared equally by England and France as well. And I addressed it in my post.
 
But, anyway, you don't want to read it it and it's up to you.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 03:15
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I don't even want to comment on this. You obviously didn't read my post where all the questions you raised were discussed in detail.
 
Of course, Soviet Union didn't have to sign the pact. But the thing is that it could easily be attacked afterwards by Nazis backed by the Western support (or may be even Polish support).
 
Stalin opted to invade Poland only when he saw that Western Allies bertrayed Poland (meaning that it would be too risky to rely on them as allies), although they clearly could support its stuggle by invading Germany from the West while most of its forces were in the East.
 
Also note that it was again Soviet initiative to negotiate about alliance with France and England in 1939. Why the negotiatione failed is discussed in my post.
 
I don't thing that Molov-Ribbentrop pact was a "positive" document. Definetely, it triggered the start of WWII in some sense. However, the responsibility for WWII is shared equally by England and France as well. And I addressed it in my post.
 
But, anyway, you don't want to read it it and it's up to you.


Well, the fact is that you said....

Originally posted by Sarmat12

....That's why it's stupid to say that only USSR is solely responsible for Molotov-Ribentrop pact. The very chance for conclusion of that pact became possible only due to the irresponsible position of the Western powers....


So the issue was 'responsibility' for signing the pact with Nazi Germany, not for starting the war.  Your post does not support the claim that the Allies were 'responsible' for the Soviets signing the pact.  The Soviets were responsible for their own actions. 

Now, if you want to change the question to responsibility for the starting of WWII, then that is a different question.  In that case it was clearly Germany who started the war.  The Soviets may bear some responsibility for 'facilitating' Germany's actions.  However, clearly much greater responsibility belongs to the Allies for 'allowing' Hitler to get to the position he did when he started the war.  There was 'allowing' the violations of the non-armament provisions of Versailles, the Rhineland, Austria, selling out Czechoslovakia (twice).  Regarding your point in the your most recent point, how could Germany 'easily' attack the Soviet Union if there had been no pact between them?  As I pointed out, there was no common land border between them until the Soviets collaborated with the Nazis in the partition of Poland in Sept. '39.  The 'buffer' states between them had been 'guaranteed' by Chamberlain, meaning that the Germans could not have 'gotten at' the Soviets without triggering war with France and Britain as well.  It seems as though, in this case, you're swallowing the communist story, hook line and sinker.  This is the 'propaganda' myth that the poor Soviet Union was the 'victim' in this situation - 'forced' by the Allies to make a deal with Hitler and then betrayed by him.  In fact it was simply a cynical 'deal' by which Stalin hoped to profit from but which 'backfired' on him.
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:38
I agree with deadkenny. If anything, Staline invaded Poland only 25 days after the signature of the pact which by all means is a very short notice. Thus one can assume that the philosophy of the alliance had been decided way in advance
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144
  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 05:11
I see Sarmat12 that You believe in communist propaganda like cgristians in the bible. Most of You said in Your posts is laughable and funny. Stalin seems to be almost holy man and only this bad Poland didn't let him to help as He was eager to doLOL.
First of all the simple reason why Poland didn't agree for SU "help" is that SU armies were known that if they come somewhere with brother's help" they would never leave and it was this small problem for Poland. Sorry but change source "Z dziejow stosunkow polsko-radzieckich. Studia i materialy. T.III. Warszawa, 1968. S.262, 287 - above book are old communism fairytales.

Your so called facts and quotes about Poland wanted SU territories and SU didn't have any claims to Poland are ruthless lies. How can You leave the pure facts so far behind?? Then why Russians took all Eastern territories after WWII if they didn't have any claims?
 
Poland didn't want to attack SU. If we wanted we would ally with Nazis to attack Russia. There were such German proposals. Polish politics was to be neutral with Germany and SU.
 
Chechoslkovakia is shameful event but I have to remind that Chechoslovakia did exactly the same 20 years earlier when Poland was fighting SU invasion they attack Poland and grab some territories.
 
And pact Libbentrop-Molotow didn't help much cause SU was still suprised that their ally attacked SU in 1941.
 
17th September was simple and unaceptable aggression and all the claims to justify it are shameful. During this aggression SU comitted atrocities like masacre in Katyn forest of which Russia still doesn't want to accept as crime against humanity and some Russian media claim it was German crime.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.