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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkey and Nazism
    Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 14:57

Hello to you all

 
I have been wondering for some time how was the relationship between Turkey and Nazi Germany. during the initial days of WWI both allies and the central powers woed Turkey into the war and Germany effectively bribed their way into wining the Turks. Did Nazi Germany try to woe Turkey especially that it was the most powerful nation in the Balkans and the middle east and the only country that managed to reverse most of the injustices they got from WWI. I want to know especially the relationship between Hitler and Attaturk and if Attaturk lived would he have joined Germany?
 
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Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 15:55
I read some were that Ataturk said to Innu ' If there is another world war stay out of it'
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 16:44
This is a misleading title since there was no affiliation with Turkey and Nazism during WWII other than espionage and political enticement by Nazi Germany and the Allies, for that matter, to get Turkey into the war for there repsective sides.
 
Ataturk had disdain towards Mussolini, Hitler and Bolshevism. When visited by General MacArthur in 1932 a few years prior to Ataturk's death in 1938 they discussed the possible spectrum of war. He ordered Inonu to bolster the countries defenses. Rationing was the order of the day for the whole country during much of WWII.
 
 
The following excerpts by Ataturk are from The Golden Link, M. Study Slater (1962):
 
 "To my understanding, just as it happened yesterday, the future of Europe will be dependent upon Germany. That nation is dynamic and disciplined. If Germany unites, it will seek to shake off the yoke of the Versailles Treaty. Germany, Russia, and England will have a strong army to conquer Europe. The next war will come from 1940 to 1945. France has lost the spirit of creating a powerful army, and therefore, England will not depend upon France to protect herself. France will no longer be a buffer state. "Italy will improve, somewhat, under Mussolini. He will first try to avoid war, if he can. But I fear that he will try to play the role of Caesar and it will prove to the World that Italy cannot produce a powerful army yet."

"America will not be able to avoid war and Germany will be defeated only through her interference. If authorities in Europe do not get together on the basis of controversies of political contacts and try to placate their own hatreds and interests, it will be tragic."

"The Troubles of England, France, and Germany will not come first or be of primary importance. Something new from the East of Europe has come up that will take primary place of importance. This new threat will spend whatever is available in its resources for international revolution. This power will utilize new political methods to achieve these goals. These methods are not known by Americans and Europeans and this power will try to make use of our small mistakes and the mistakes of Western nations."

"The victorious power after the war between 1940 and 1945 will not be England, France, or Germany, but Bolshevism. Being closest to Russia and having had many wars with her in the past, Turkey is watching Russia closely and sees the whole danger developing. Russia knows how to influence and awaken the minds of Eastern countries, and how to give them ideas of nationalism. Russia has encouraged hatred towards the West. Bolshevism is getting to be a power and a great threat to Europe and Asia."



Edited by Seko - 12-Nov-2007 at 16:55
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:55
Ataturk and Inonu were pragmatists. I don't think they would ally with Germany unless its victory was at hand.

But there were many Nazi supporters among Kemalists, like Mahmut Esat Bozkurt (Minister of Justice) or Yunus Nadi (Owner of Cumhuriyet Newspaper).

Russia knows how to influence and awaken the minds of Eastern countries, and how to give them ideas of nationalism.

Russia knew what?

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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 18:18
Very wise statement taking into account the role that USSR played in the decolonization in Asia and Africa after WWII.
 
Regarding the historical experience which Ataturk probably meant, just consider the Russian support of the national movements of Balkan nations and Armenians in Ottoman empire.
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 18:34
Feanor though it mentions nationalism, I think the translator meant appealing to nationalism to form discord as Sarmat12 mentions.
 
 
Avrupa'da ıkacak savaşı kazanan ne İngiltere, ne Fransa, ne de Almanya olacaktır. Savaşı Bolşevik Rusya kazanacaktır. Rusya'nın yakın komşusu ve onlarla en ok savaşmış bir ulus olarak biz Trkler, oradaki olayları yakından izliyoruz. Tehlikeyi btn ıplaklığıyla gryoruz. Uyanan doğu halklarının duygularını pek gzel kullanan, onları okşayan ve kinlerini dile getirmesini bilen Bolşevikler, yalnız Avrupa'ya değil, Asya'ya da gzdağı veren bir g haline gelmektedir.
 
my interpretation:
 
The winners of a war that will take place in Europe will neither be England, France or Germany. The victors will be Bolshevik Russia. Russia's close neighbor and people who have fought them the most are the Turks, we are watching their events from a close proximity. We see that danger with the naked eye. They know how to forment turmoil by appealing to the emotions of peoples of the east, by messaging feelings of animosity, the Bolsheviks will be a threat not only to Europe but Asia too will have to face their might.


Edited by Seko - 12-Nov-2007 at 18:53
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:54
Originally posted by Seko

This is a misleading title since there was no affiliation with Turkey and Nazism during WWII other than espionage and political enticement by Nazi Germany and the Allies, for that matter, to get Turkey into the war for there repsective sides.
 
Ataturk had disdain towards Mussolini, Hitler and Bolshevism. When visited by General MacArthur in 1932 a few years prior to Ataturk's death in 1938 they discussed the possible spectrum of war. He ordered Inonu to bolster the countries defenses. Rationing was the order of the day for the whole country during much of WWII.
 
 
The following excerpts by Ataturk are from The Golden Link, M. Study Slater (1962):
 
 "To my understanding, just as it happened yesterday, the future of Europe will be dependent upon Germany. That nation is dynamic and disciplined. If Germany unites, it will seek to shake off the yoke of the Versailles Treaty. Germany, Russia, and England will have a strong army to conquer Europe. The next war will come from 1940 to 1945. France has lost the spirit of creating a powerful army, and therefore, England will not depend upon France to protect herself. France will no longer be a buffer state. "Italy will improve, somewhat, under Mussolini. He will first try to avoid war, if he can. But I fear that he will try to play the role of Caesar and it will prove to the World that Italy cannot produce a powerful army yet."

"America will not be able to avoid war and Germany will be defeated only through her interference. If authorities in Europe do not get together on the basis of controversies of political contacts and try to placate their own hatreds and interests, it will be tragic."

"The Troubles of England, France, and Germany will not come first or be of primary importance. Something new from the East of Europe has come up that will take primary place of importance. This new threat will spend whatever is available in its resources for international revolution. This power will utilize new political methods to achieve these goals. These methods are not known by Americans and Europeans and this power will try to make use of our small mistakes and the mistakes of Western nations."

"The victorious power after the war between 1940 and 1945 will not be England, France, or Germany, but Bolshevism. Being closest to Russia and having had many wars with her in the past, Turkey is watching Russia closely and sees the whole danger developing. Russia knows how to influence and awaken the minds of Eastern countries, and how to give them ideas of nationalism. Russia has encouraged hatred towards the West. Bolshevism is getting to be a power and a great threat to Europe and Asia."

 
New Nostradamus?
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:07
Sarmat12 - Regarding the historical experience which Ataturk probably meant, just consider the Russian support of the national movements of Balkan nations and Armenians in Ottoman empire.

Russian Empire and Soviet Union are two different things, right? It was Red Army, after all, which ended 'Armenian national awakening'.

Democratic Republic of Armenia

Seko - Feanor though it mentions nationalism, I think the translator meant appealing to nationalism to form discord as Sarmat12 mentions.

It's just confusing. Ataturk himself was a nationalist, but these words are as if he still spoke for some imperial authority.

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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:32
Originally posted by Seko

This is a misleading title since there was no affiliation with Turkey and Nazism during WWII other than espionage and political enticement by Nazi Germany and the Allies, for that matter, to get Turkey into the war for there repsective sides.
 


a Turkish general visited Hitler in the Wolfs lair on 28. October 1941.

link to Polish wiki whith entries of foreign diplomats etc visiting Hitler there: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilczy_Szaniec it's the last entry

also, as far as i know Turkey declared war on Germany in 1945. also i can remember, and this is a quote of the movie the Downfall, that Hitler wanted to invade India using 30 elite divisions that would rampage through Turkey and Iran, in the process 'liberating' iran from Soviet-British occupation. of course he had no 30 elite divisions but don't dare telling him!
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 21:01
Turkey was devastated after World War II and it didn't want to involve itself and risk disaster once more. If they allied themselves with the Allies, they would get nothing if they allied with the Axis and lost they would be devastated.
 
Turkey was not equipped enough for WWI, they needed massive German help, so to go into a much more mechanized war WWII would have been disastrous.
 
Not to mention Russia, who have since mechanized from WWI experience, would've crushed Turkey and taken the capital within days.
 
Smart move to stay out of war I'd say!
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 21:19
andrew - Not to mention Russia, who have since mechanized from WWI experience, would've crushed Turkey and taken the capital within days.

Isn't this scenario based on German - Turkish alliance? So how can you know that? Besides, Red Army would be invading from Caucaus, at any case it should take a lot more than a few days.

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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 11:41
Originally posted by Feanor

andrew - Not to mention Russia, who have since mechanized from WWI experience, would've crushed Turkey and taken the capital within days.

Isn't this scenario based on German - Turkish alliance? So how can you know that? Besides, Red Army would be invading from Caucaus, at any case it should take a lot more than a few days.

 
Still by that time Russia would've taken Istanbul considering their army and navy were much more advanced and considering the Russian tanks and airplanes wer eup to date.
 
I made a mistake in not involving Germany and how they could help the Ottomans like in WWI so that was my mistake.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 13:26
andrew - Still by that time Russia would've taken Istanbul considering their army and navy were much more advanced and considering the Russian tanks and airplanes were up to date.

Still, Red Army was inferior to Wehrmacht on the paper and I think we all know how they fared against it initially. But that's irrelevant. Soviets could liberate small, flat European countries 'within days' after Battle of Kursk, where Germans could go offensive of such scale for the last time. This 'Turkish - German alliance' would occur before that. After all, Turkish government wouldn't ally with Nazis when it became obvious that they were going to lose the war, right? For instance, how on earth could Red Army enter Turkish soil from Caucaus when Stalingrad was still under siege, never mind passsing through mountainous Eastern Anatolia and capturing Ankara, the Turkish capital?

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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 20:31
Originally posted by Feanor

andrew - Still by that time Russia would've taken Istanbul considering their army and navy were much more advanced and considering the Russian tanks and airplanes were up to date.

Still, Red Army was inferior to Wehrmacht on the paper and I think we all know how they fared against it initially. But that's irrelevant. Soviets could liberate small, flat European countries 'within days' after Battle of Kursk, where Germans could go offensive of such scale for the last time. This 'Turkish - German alliance' would occur before that. After all, Turkish government wouldn't ally with Nazis when it became obvious that they were going to lose the war, right? For instance, how on earth could Red Army enter Turkish soil from Caucaus when Stalingrad was still under siege, never mind passsing through mountainous Eastern Anatolia and capturing Ankara, the Turkish capital?

 
The Russians fight on multiple fronts. They could lean an army into Turkey while Stalingrad is under attack it is very possible. They could've easily entered Turkish soil through a combined aerial and sea assault and would've crippled Turkey if it did not receive direct relieft from Germany.
 
Turkey was not a power and had it entered the war it wouldn't end very well.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:38
Originally posted by andrew

 
The Russians fight on multiple fronts. They could lean an army into Turkey while Stalingrad is under attack it is very possible. They could've easily entered Turkish soil through a combined aerial and sea assault and would've crippled Turkey if it did not receive direct relieft from Germany.
 
Turkey was not a power and had it entered the war it wouldn't end very well.
 
Turkey had 1 million soldiers by 1942.
 
True that it was navally and aerially weak and an entrance into war would be a disaster, no matter which side Turkey would join..However,
 
Any country with such a number of soldiers, constitutes a power, even if it is not a "great power" status


Edited by Kapikulu - 14-Nov-2007 at 00:29
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Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:43
they survived WWI didn't they.


They even managed to grab some land in the procces

The sickman of Europe :D
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 00:20
Seko, it seems my suspicions were true, a little bird whispered into my ear that what you quoted is actually nothing but some infamous anti-communist fabrications from Cold War era!

Here's the real story: Atatrk ne de(me)misti?

(It's in Turkish and too long to translate. I'm sorry.)

andrew - The Russians fight on multiple fronts. They could lean an army into Turkey while Stalingrad is under attack it is very possible. They could've easily entered Turkish soil through a combined aerial and sea assault and would've crippled Turkey if it did not receive direct relieft from Germany. Turkey was not a power and had it entered the war it wouldn't end very well.

I agree it wouldn't end well either way. My point is that you clearly underestimate Turkey. As I said before, there is no way that Red Army could enter Turkish territory when Germans were still advancing deep into their own country, never mind capturing the Turkish capital within days. And how can you explain Winter War? Soviet Union wasn't even invaded by Nazis back then, but they failed to reach their goals.

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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 02:19
Originally posted by xi_tujue

they survived WWI didn't they.


They even managed to grab some land in the procces

The sickman of Europe :D
 
Are you serious?
 
Turkey was stripped out of all of its colonies and had the western portions of its nation partitioned off to Greece. Had it not been for the brilliance of Kemal Ataturk Turkey would be a completely different place.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

Turkey had 1 million soldiers by 1942.
 
True that it was navally and aerially weak and an entrance into war would be a disaster, no matter which side Turkey would join..However,
 
Any country with such a number of soldiers, constitutes a power, even if it is not a "great power" status
 
So wouldn't China fall into the same category? Not technologically weak but good manpower reserves. All it would do is create another front for the Russians to fight that's it.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 19:17
if Turkey had joined the Axis, what about the southern front? Syria was initially Vichy but was eventually captured by British sodleirs. in 1941 Britian fought against Iraq, so yet another country bordering Turkey would become allied. iran also was occupied by Soviets in the North and British in the South. as a contrast, German mountain troops even reached the Caucasus, so the North-Eastern Front is the least problem for Turkey in this scenario.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 12:55
Originally posted by andrew

 
 
So wouldn't China fall into the same category? Not technologically weak but good manpower reserves. All it would do is create another front for the Russians to fight that's it.
 
No it would not. China had the manpower but great amount of this manpower did not even have a stable rifle to fight the Japanese, or any military training. And also, China is one huge piece of soil, and was in excessive internal problems at the time, seeking for total unity
 
Meanwhile, Turkey had none of these problems, and positioned in a key location which might have been effective, and problematic to confront
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