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Britain declining?

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Poll Question: Is Britain declining?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Britain declining?
    Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 15:48
What do you think?
 
It is Britain declining economically in military power and influence? Or it is just an optical illusion? A temporary trouble that will pass very soon to restablish matters in its ballance?
 
This is an article that I found in Internet, that called my attention. Please comment this thread.
 
 
 
The decline of Great Britain

Posted: April 10, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

It is painful to see the decline of Great Britain.

Greatness in individuals is rare; in countries it is almost unique. And Great Britain was great.

It used to be said that "The sun never sets on the British empire." That is how vast Britain's influence was. And that influence, on balance, was far more positive than negative. Ask the Indians or the Americans, for that matter. The British colonies learned about individual rights, parliamentary government, civil service and courts of justice, to name of few of the benefits that the British brought with them. Were it not for British involvement, India might still have sati (burning wives on the funeral pyre of their husband), would have no unifying language, and probably no parliamentary democracy or other institutions and values that have made that country a democratic giant, now on its way to becoming an economic one as well. But today, the sun not only literally sets on an extinct British empire; it is figuratively setting on Britain itself.

Two recent examples provide evidence:

One is the way Britain handled the recent act of war against it by Iran. Everything about the British reaction revealed a civilization in decline

Whether the British sailors and marines should have put up more resistance i.e., any resistance to the unprovoked Iranian military attack is something for military and other experts to decide. Whether the captured sailors and marines offered more information and more cooperation and more smiles than was necessary to the leader of their kidnappers, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, will also be determined in ongoing investigations. Whether the British government engaged in appeasement of Iran or ineffective diplomacy will also have to be judged.

What does seem clear, however, is that the British government did not confront the Iranians in any way reminiscent of a great country, let alone of Britain's great past. If we judge the British government's reaction alone without any reference to the behavior of the British sailors and marines Iran was the feared power, not Great Britain, which acted like the supplicant.

But what really makes one weep for Britain's lost greatness is what has happened since the sailors and marines were released.

The UK minister of defense, Labor MP Desmond Browne, announced that the released sailors and marines were all free to sell their stories to the media, "as a result of exceptional media interest." If this is not unprecedented, it would certainly be difficult to find anything similar in the annals of military history. Some of the captured sailors and marines have already earned large sums of money. The Guardian newspaper said the one woman who had been captured, Faye Turney, agreed to a deal with The Sun and ITV television for approximately $200,000. (American soldier Jessica Lynch, who was captured when her Army convoy was ambushed in 2003, received a $500,000 advance for her book, "I Am a Soldier, Too." But that was a book published later and she had never charged the news media when interviewed by them.)

And John Tindell, the father of another of the hostages, said the marines were planning to sell on eBay the vases given to them by the Iranians.

As The Australian reported, "Some of the sums being offered to the captives are higher than the money paid to service personnel maimed in Iraq or Afghanistan. The standard tariff for the loss of an arm is 57,500 pounds."

The Labor government's decision was described well by the mother of a British soldier killed in Iraq. As reported by Reuters: "The mother of a 19-year-old British soldier killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq at the weekend said she would be 'very shocked' if any of the detainees were paid for their stories. 'If you are a member of the military, it is your duty to serve your country,' Sally Veck, mother of Eleanor Dlugosz, told the Times. 'You should do your duty and not expect to make money by selling stories.'"

That pretty well sums up the revulsion many feel at the British government's decision.

The other current example of Great Britain's decline is the widely reported (in the UK) decision of schools in various parts of that country to stop teaching about the Holocaust in history classes. The reason?

As reported by the BBC, "Some schools avoid teaching the Holocaust and other controversial history subjects as they do not want to cause offense, research has claimed. Teachers fear meeting anti-Semitic sentiment, particularly from Muslim pupils, the government-funded study by the Historical Association said."

No comment necessary.

But a word of caution: If Great Britain can cease to be great in so short a time span, any country can. All you need is an elite that no longer believes in their country, that manipulates history texts to make students feel good about themselves, that prefers multiculturalism to its own culture, and that has abandoned its religious underpinnings. Sound familiar, America?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 16:12

come on, fellows. Be serious LOL

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  Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 16:20

 Yes, they are in decline as far as foreign politics are concerned, but they were once, and not so long ago, one mighty force. Their language is by far the most spoken language  in the world, and their living conditions are among the best in the world. I think they'll be just fine...

Sure, they'll probably never again claim India, but are still strong enough to defend Falklands.




Edited by Larus - 11-Nov-2007 at 16:20
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:09
LOL.... we are patient...
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  Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:37
Oh, so I hit the nerve- that's why you don't like Britain. Well, it will take A LOT of patience.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:42
Things change fast... It is quite curious how former empires keep believing in theirs glory when they have gone for a long time.
 
What doesn't seem to change, though, is the belicosity of Europeans. There have hardly passed much time without a conflict. What a sad continent is that, isn't?
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:50

If it is a decline it will be slow, but to me it does not look like

For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 19:00

We'll, with the tragic exception of some regions in SS Africa, the true is that all the world is progressing... The rate of growth is high, perhaps 4% on average.

The old world (Europe) is not growing as fast as the rest, and it is common sense that they will be catch up by the end of this century. Even before, Europe will notice a RELATIVE decline with people that were formerly in inferiority of conditions.
 
Yes. Spain, for instance, today is unbelievable richer than for the Golden Age, but its international power these days are just symbolic, rather than anything else. That will happens to Britain too, I bet.
 
Now, what it matters is that the world of the future will be more ballanced, and won't repeat again the situation where small european countries had under control more of the planet and do as they wished, because at that time they had a quantum leap in technology.
 
Today that situation would be impossible.
 
Thanks God.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-Nov-2007 at 19:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 19:24
Is Britain declining?  Yes, but very slowly.

The problem, from my view, appears to be twofold:  a government that cannot recognize its own inability to effect much change on an international level, and; a population that is making it increasingly difficult to define what being 'British' actually means. 

Socially speaking, Britain as an entity is going downhill; rampant overpopulation and excessive immigration have conspired to push the cost of living ever-higher, while the masses increase in frustrated multitude.  Resentment between immigrants and non-immigrants is likewise increasing - all in an environment where space and jobs are becoming progressively more limited.  I can see something unfortunate happening with this situation within the next 15-20 years. 

As for the British government, they are caught between two ends, again, and have yet to decide on a viable 'third way.'  Kowtowing to the US, with this alleged 'special relationship' is not, in my view, in their best interests.  At the same time, I'm not entirely convinced that the EU holds the way forward, either.  Britain's government, however, cannot seem to decide on the issue one way or the other, and results in a slew of half-measures and maybes when definitive answers are needed.

To make matters worse, with the rise in popular nationalist sentiment among the constituent nations (Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland) and the corresponding growth in resentment in England at the subsidies and financing these countries receive, it is possible that within a couple of generations Britain won't even exist as we understand it anymore. 

Is it possible that this decline can be avoided?  I think so.  Mainly, Britons appear to have forgotten what made them 'great' once upon a time.  Now, the masses are content with their Ipods and cellphones and other toys, and have no time for, or respect of, the nation in which they reside.  They do not understand how the actions of the past have influenced their situation today.

Perhaps I sound like an alarmist, or perhaps this post doesn't even make a whole lot of sense, but I've been thinking about the situation for a while now, and just wanted to say a few things.  Apologies if I offended anyone. 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 19:59

Yup and its the fault of leftist labourite scotsmen who rule over the majority english.

 My professor, a nationalist welshman, said this and he is right, a century ago Britain was the economic model every one imitate and now with liberal principle of small government and minimum taxation under alternating liberal-conservative parties that reward the working people instead of stealing money from them to give to people who chose to be failures rather than becoming an active part of society. Then came the labourites and Britain went literally to the dogs. Government stole everything from people who spent their lives gathering money to reach where they are. the one who does not own gave it to the one that does not deserve and by the 70s Britain literally became the new sick man of Europe. But even in the height of the decline britain still had decent politicians that had the interests of Britain paramount and no matter of BS said about special relationship they did not sent troops to Vietnam. Now even the politician have deteriorated.
 
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  Quote WolfHound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:31
Politically yes especially with leaders like Sarkozy and Merkel leading European politics. Economically not the UK still has a pretty stable economy and big middle class. But they are no where near the greatness of the British Empire.

Edited by WolfHound - 11-Nov-2007 at 20:32
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 22:58
The land of hope and glory went through a stage of being the land of little hope and fading glories, but rebounded by concentrating on developing trade ties rather than empire. They are only nation on earth to build an empire and then give it away. They were smart enough to work out the direction of the winds of change and go along with them. 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 05:00
Britain declined enormously during WW2 and the period directly afterwards. It lost its Imperial glory then, but by choosing to loose it graciously it has enabled britain to stabilise itself. Lost the Empire to save the country.

So no Britain is not declining further at present. However since '47 it has been a minor power.
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 10:19
Minor is relative. Minor in respect to USA, Russia and China. But to whom else ?
 
What is the definition of minor ?
 
We do suffer from the most appalling set of politicians on all sides which doesn't help us. But we have had those at many times in our history !
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 11:19
Ah yes, another one of pinguin's Britain-bashing threads, hyping the virtues of his beloved banana-republics of Latin America in a favourable comparison with the perfidious and bellicose Europeans,
whose inevitable decline will soon bring them death and misery, God willing. 
 
The topic is interesting enough, but the premise isn't.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 11:51
That was uncalled for Reginmund.
 
Well the Britain in 2007 is of course a far less influential nation than say that of 1907, but declining? No. I often think Britain is like Rome and Byzantium, with the Empire being Rome and modern Britain being Byzantium, that is despite the loss of most of its territory it is still a viabrent and relevant player in world affairs.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 12:48
Originally posted by Sparten

That was uncalled for Reginmund.
 
Uhm, no. It's been called for dozens of times.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 13:08
Originally posted by Reginmund

Ah yes, another one of pinguin's Britain-bashing threads, hyping the virtues of his beloved banana-republics of Latin America in a favourable comparison with the perfidious and bellicose Europeans,
whose inevitable decline will soon bring them death and misery, God willing. 
 
The topic is interesting enough, but the premise isn't.
 
Precisely, focus on Britain, and don't judge our poor and suffering third world banana republics, deep in hunger, chaos and devastation, and still waiting for "buana" to save us. So focus in the topic, please. Lat.Am. doesn't count, anyways. Confused
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 13:33
Rathre another pointless thread as posted. In decline ?
 
Compared with when ?
 
1600 certainly not
 
1700 not
 
1800 not
 
1900 probably
 
1945 certainly not
 
1960 Not
 
Any other ways this can be sensible assessed ?


Edited by Peteratwar - 12-Nov-2007 at 13:33
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 13:42
Britain is declining because a loss of morality, family values, loss of what is Britishness (immigration) and finally they just tired themselves out.
 
Their military isnt so great. They may have the technology, but dont have the will to fight.
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