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The French Army in XVIII Century
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Temujin View Drop Down
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Sirdar Bahadur

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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The French Army in XVIII Century
    Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:48
Originally posted by Challenger2



Suvorov was only a Colonel during the Seven Years War  and had no influence on Russian operations. 

Do you seriously base an army's performance  purely on the number of engagements won?!


Suvorov was heavily influenced by the commanders that fought int he 7YW and i considder him part of the tiem period we talk about.

well, not on the numbers of engagements won, but if two armies fight each others, i reckon that the force winning the most engagements is the best.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 23:21
Originally posted by Jubelu

If you need more concrete evidence to the disintegration of French military, then review their case at Liegnitz or Rossbach.

Austria, in some senses, still better than France


The French never fought at Leignitz and Rossbach was more a case of poor Generalship on the part of the Imperial and French armies than a disintegration of the French military. Some French units fought well at Rossbach, but there's not a lot you can do when you are caught in column of march by a fully deployed enemy. It's a bit like saying  the  Roman army was rubbish because they lost at Trasimene.
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Posts: 2 		  Quote Jubelu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 23:55
Then how do you explain the case of Warburg?
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Posts: 2 		  Quote Jubelu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 23:57
Quote: well, not on the numbers of engagements won, but if two armies fight each others, i reckon that the force winning the most engagements is the best.

Well, this is particularly applicable for XVIII century warfare. Prussia won a lot engagements, so did Britain. Spain and France became obsolete force in Europe and were merely paper tiger.
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Posts: 2 		  Quote Jubelu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 00:02

Allied army: 30,500 French, 10,500 Kreis in 49/14 Bns, 40/41 Sqns, 36/12 Field guns, approx 120 Battalion guns. Charles de Rohan, Prince Soubise, Marshal of France AC (for French troops), Prinz von Sachsen-Hildburghausen, Prince of the Empire AC (for Kreis troops, may command and rally French cavalry)

Franco-Kreis 1st Cavalry Column, Ex = 6

  • Austrian Cuirassier Regts Brettlach & Trautmansdorff  M5 [ ][ ][ ]hvy
  • Austrian Carabinier Companies                         M5 [ ]hvy
  • Kreis Cuirassier Regt Pfalz                           M4 [ ]hvy, pt
  • Kreis Cuirassier Hohenzollern                         M4 [ ]hvy, pt
  • Kreis Dragoon Regt Wurttemberg                        M3 [ ]med, pt
  • French Cavalry Brigade                                M5 [ ][ ]hvy (La Reine/Bourbon-Busset/Fitz-James)
  • French Cavalry Brigade                                M5 [ ][s]mxd (Commissaire-Gnral, No.69 Volontaires Ligois & No.22 Bourbon)

Franco-Kreis 2nd Cavalry Column, Ex = 3

  • Kreis Cuirassier Regt Bayreuth                        M3 [ ]hvy, pt
  • Kreis Dragoon Regt Anspach                            M3 [ ]med, pt
  • French Cavalry Brigade                                M5 [ ][ ]hvy (Penthivre, Mstre de Camp Gnral, Cuirassiers du Roi)
  • French Cavalry Brigade No.19 Berry & No.58 Escars     M5 [ ][ ]hvy

Franco-Kreis Main Infantry Columns, Lt Genl de Chevert CC

Right Column, Ex = 7

Advance Guard

  • Inf Regt No.4 Pimont, Right Wing                      M5 [ ][ ]bg-g

Body of Right Column

  • Inf Regt No.21 Saint-Chamond                           M5 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.57 Coss-Brissac                           M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Allemandes No.92 Deux-Ponts                   M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.37 Royal Roussillon                        M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Suisse No.51 Reding                           M5 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Suisse No.63 Planta                           M5 [ ][ ]bg-g

Right-Centre Column, Ex = 8

  • Inf Regt No.47 Royal Artillery/No.11 Mailly, Rt. Wing M5 [ ][ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.11 Mailly, Left Wing                       M5 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Allemandes No.66 La Marck                     M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Royal-Pologne/Saint-Germain                   M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Suisse No.52 Castellas                        M5 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Suisse No.87 Salis                            M5 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Suisse No.55 Wittemer & No.77 Diesbach        M5 [ ][ ][ ]bg-g

Centre Column, Ex = 4

  • Inf Regt No.14 Poitu                                   M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.61 Provence                                M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt Montbazon                                     M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.41 Beauvoisis                              M4 [ ][ ]bg-g

Left-Centre Column, Ex = nil

  • French 1st Field Artillery Battalion                   M5 [ ][ ]sb-fld
  • French 2nd Field Artillery Battalion                   M5 [ ][ ]sb-fld
  • French 3rd Field Artillery Battalion                   M5 [ ][ ]sb-fld

Left Column, Ex = 4

Advance Guard

  • Inf Regt No.4 Pimont, Left Wing                       M5 [ ][ ]bg-g

Body of left Column

  • Kreis Inf Regt Blau Wurzburg                           M4 [ ][ ]bg-g, pt
  • Kreis Inf Regts Hessen-Darmstadt & Trier               M4 [ ][ ][ ]bg-g
  • Kreis Inf Regt Varell                                  M3 [ ][ ]bg-g, pt
  • Kreis Light Artillery Battalion                        M4 [ ][ ]sb-lt, pt
  • Kreis Inf Regts Cronegk & Ferentheil                   M3 [ ][ ]bg-g, pt

Saint Germains Detached Wing, Lt Genl Saint Germain DC, Ex = 7

First Line

  • French Cavalry Brigade                                 M5 [ ][ ]hvy (Aquitaine, Royale & Royal-Roussillon)
  • Inf Regt No.38 Cond                                   M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • Inf Regt No.18 Touraine                                M4 [ ][ ]bg-g
  • French cavalry Brigade Colonel General, Conde & Poli   M5 [ ][ ]hvy

Second Line

  • Inf Regt No.6 Royal La Marine                          M5 [ ][ ][ ]bg-g

Flank Guard

  • Hussars No.69 Royal Nassau                             M4 [s]lt
  • Dragoons No.13 Royal Apchon                            M4 [ ]med

Generaleutnant Loudons Austrian Light Column, GL Loudon DC, Ex = 2

  • Szecheny Hussars                                       M5 [s]lt
  • Grenzer Karlstadter Otocaner                           M4 [ ]sk-bg
  • Grenzer Warasdiner Creuzer                             M4 [ ]sk-bg
This perhaps convinces you enough the engagement of France in Rossbach. "Fought well" meant nothing, since Prussian forces fought very well, did it not?
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tancrde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 06:09
Originally posted by Temujin


this is one-dimensional. France was only sucessfull as long as there was Prussia. after prussia left the war by separate peace and Saxony joined Austria, the French were beaten back, so they asked Prussia to re-enter the war. without Prussian intervention France would have lost the Austrian sucession war.


Prussia left the war in 1745.
French conquered lonely Austrian netherlands and invaded United provinces between 1745 1748,
in the same time they fought against British in India and North America
Austrian Dutch and British even asked russian to help them, but after th fall of Berg op Zoom it was too late for them.

Edited by Tancrde - 12-Nov-2007 at 06:10
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tancrde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 06:23

Originally posted by Jubelu



Spain and France became obsolete force in Europe and were merely paper tiger.


You speak about what war ?

Spanish weren't bad.
they won war of jenkins' against Britain
With French they defeated Austrian in Italia during Polish succession War.



Edited by Tancrde - 12-Nov-2007 at 06:36
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tancrde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 06:42
Originally posted by Jubelu

The illusion that France was the most powerful mainpower was shattered right after the financial crisis of Louis XIV's reign. Not until Napoleon I enthroned did France enjoy her military peak.


France was maybe not so poweful than during the reign of Louis XIV but it remained the most powerful european state and the most populous.
Before Napoleon I during revolutionnary wars 1792 1797 despite of France was in civil war, French defeated almost all european countries on 4 differents fronts (Flanders Rhine Italia Pyrenees).
Even Romans never won against so many enemies in same time




Edited by Tancrde - 12-Nov-2007 at 06:54
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by Challenger2

Some French units fought well at Rossbach, but there's not a lot you can do when you are caught in column of march by a fully deployed enemy.


the Prussians in one battle also caught the Russians in marching column and the Russians won.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by Tancrde



Prussia left the war in 1745.
French conquered lonely Austrian netherlands and invaded United provinces between 1745 1748,
in the same time they fought against British in India and North America
Austrian Dutch and British even asked russian to help them, but after th fall of Berg op Zoom it was too late for them.


after Dettingen France had to call upon Prussia again or face another siege of France. in the peace terms France had to return the Austrian Netherlands and Savoy (Austrian ally) made some gains. you can never claim this was a French victory.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Challenger2

Some French units fought well at Rossbach, but there's not a lot you can do when you are caught in column of march by a fully deployed enemy.


the Prussians in one battle also caught the Russians in marching column and the Russians won.


Remind me, which one's that?
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:12
Originally posted by Jubelu

Then how do you explain the case of Warburg?


What's to explain? It's curious you've not mentioned Minden yet. Smile
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:15
Originally posted by Challenger2



Remind me, which one's that?


Gro-Jgersdorf. OK, the Prussian force was rather small but there was a chance they could suceed.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Challenger2



Remind me, which one's that?


Gro-Jgersdorf. OK, the Prussian force was rather small but there was a chance they could suceed.


Oh, you mean the battle where the Russans outnumbered the Prussians 2:1  [5:1 in artillery]. Where the Pussian attack fell into confusion, especially at Norkitteln, where Prussian battalions fired at each other and the Prussians became convinced they were attacking an enemy behind field fortifications?....Yeah , Okay. Nice try. Tongue
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Posts: 2 		  Quote Jubelu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 23:23
So what is about Minden, about ignominious French defeat, just as Warburg? Nice try.

Each army has its own weakness, the Prussian army might fall into that confusion, but above all, they were still the most formidable land force as the most formidable British Navy.

They already had their own Leignitz and Rossbach, and then Freiburg, Burkersdorf.

About the Russian, I admit their formidable strength and brilliant commanders such as Stepan Fedorovich Apraksin and Pyotr Semyonovich Saltykov. Their achievement in Kay, Kunersdorf is undeniable.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tancrde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 08:45
Originally posted by Temujin


after Dettingen France had to call upon Prussia again or face another siege of France.


After Dettingen (1743) France officially declared war to Austrian British,
So France began really Austrian succession war in 1744


Originally posted by Temujin

in the peace terms France had to return the Austrian Netherlands and Savoy (Austrian ally) made some gains. you can never claim this was a French victory.




Later campaigns
The last three campaigns of the war in the Netherlands were illustrated by the now fully developed genius of Marshal Saxe. After Fontenoy the French carried all before them. The withdrawal of most of the British to aid in suppressing the Forty-Five rebellion at home left their allies in a helpless position. In 1746 the Dutch and the Austrians were driven back towards the line of the Meuse, and most of the important fortresses were taken by the French. The Battle of Roucoux (or Raucourt) near Lige, fought on 11 October between the allies under Prince Charles of Lorraine and the French under Saxe, resulted in a victory for the latter. Holland itself was now in danger, and when in April 1747 Saxe's army, which had now conquered the Austrian Netherlands up to the Meuse, turned its attention to the United Provinces. The old fortresses on the frontier offered but slight resistance. The Prince of Orange and the Duke of Cumberland underwent a severe defeat at Lauffeld (Lawfeld, also called Val) on 2 July 1747, and Saxe, after his victory, promptly and secretly despatched a corps under Marshal Lowendahl (17001755) to besiege Bergen op Zoom. On 18 September Bergen op Zoom was stormed by the French, and in the last year of the war Maastricht, attacked by the entire forces of Saxe and Lowendahl, surrendered on 7 May 1748. A large Russian army arrived to join the allies, but too late to be of use. The quarrel of Russia and Sweden had been settled by the Peace of bo in 1743, and in 1746 Russia had allied herself with Austria. Eventually a large army marched from Moscow to the Rhine, an event which was not without military significance, and in a manner preluded the great invasions of 18131814 and 1815. The general Peace of Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen) was signed on 18 October 1748.

It was a French victory that left the gateway to the Dutch Republic open to invasion and the Dutch at the mercy of the French. The allied retreat allowed Saxe to send a detachment of 30,000 north across the lowlands quickly capturing the city of Bergen-op-Zoom to finish that year's campaign season. At the opening of the Spring campaign season of 1748, the French invested Maastricht and, after a brief siege the city fell on May 7. The city's siege started the peace process in April that ended the war in October 1748 with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle. Maurice de Saxe's long series of victorious campaigns, sieges and battles in the lowlands ensured France's position as the dominant land power in the peace negotiations during which the sound of Saxe's siege guns could be heard pounding away at the city of Maastricht.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Austrian_Succession

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fontenoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lauffeld



Edited by Tancrde - 13-Nov-2007 at 08:56
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 18:51
Originally posted by Challenger2



Oh, you mean the battle where the Russans outnumbered the Prussians 2:1  [5:1 in artillery]. Where the Pussian attack fell into confusion, especially at Norkitteln, where Prussian battalions fired at each other and the Prussians became convinced they were attacking an enemy behind field fortifications?....Yeah , Okay. Nice try. Tongue


so where is the problem? the actual numbers of Prussians that won Rossbach were even smaller than the Prussian force at Gro-Jgersdorf. Lehwaldt had the same chances than Seydlitz to win the battle.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 12:40
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Challenger2

BTW Napoleon Bonaparte was an XVIII century General


Only barely ... 1796.
 
Still counts! Big%20smile
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 12:49
Originally posted by Jubelu

Quote: well, not on the numbers of engagements won, but if two armies fight each others, i reckon that the force winning the most engagements is the best.

Well, this is particularly applicable for XVIII century warfare. Prussia won a lot engagements, so did Britain. Spain and France became obsolete force in Europe and were merely paper tiger.
 

Just for entertainment, here are the Results of the Seven Years War for the Prussian Army:

 

Lobositz 1756           Prussian Win

Prague 1757             Prussian Win

Kolin 1757                Prussian Defeat

Gross Jaegersdorf 1757 Prussian Defeat

Rossbach 1757           Prussian Win

Breslau 1757           Prussian Defeat

Leuthen 1757                     Prussian Win

Olmutz 1758             Prussian Defeat

Zorndorf 1758           Draw

Hochkirch 1758          Prussian Defeat

Kay 1759                 Prussian Defeat

Kunersdorf 1759          Prussian Defeat

Maxen 1759             Prussian Defeat

Landeshut 1760          Prussian Defeat

Leignitz 1760            Prussian Win

Torgau 1760             Prussian Win

Bukersdorf 1762          Prussian Win

Freiburg 1762           Prussian Win

 

By your logic, having lost more engagements than they won, the Prussian Army performed poorly.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 12:50
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Challenger2



Oh, you mean the battle where the Russans outnumbered the Prussians 2:1  [5:1 in artillery]. Where the Pussian attack fell into confusion, especially at Norkitteln, where Prussian battalions fired at each other and the Prussians became convinced they were attacking an enemy behind field fortifications?....Yeah , Okay. Nice try. Tongue


so where is the problem? the actual numbers of Prussians that won Rossbach were even smaller than the Prussian force at Gro-Jgersdorf. Lehwaldt had the same chances than Seydlitz to win the battle.
 
We can quibble over numbers, but the odds were about the same. Lehwaldt was clearly not Frederick. Wink
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