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Greatest Ottoman Naval Commander

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Poll Question: Who was the greatest Ottoman naval commander, and why?
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17 [85.00%]
2 [10.00%]
1 [5.00%]
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greatest Ottoman Naval Commander
    Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 16:50

Interesting aproach LD, perhaps I should contact a professional Ottoman historian.

And I wonder where those authors got those numbers from.

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  Quote akıncı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 05:57
İ've speaken to three and read 2 books about this,they all say that preveze was a battle.Sorry.
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 07:45

Originally posted by akıncı

İ've speaken to three and read 2 books about this,they all say that preveze was a battle.Sorry.

No apologies necessary, Akyncy.

The facts are the facts, and tactically speaking, Prevesa wasn't much of a "battle".

The Turks achieved a strategic victory due to divisions within the Christian ranks, and Doria's refusal to fight, but that doesn't change the fact that not much fighting took place.

When two galley fleets (with 100+ ships each) actually engage in a bonafide "battle", the stakes are much higher--as at Lepanto (where the Christians suffered heavy casualties, and the Turks were annihilated outright).

But at Prevesa, very few ships were engaged.

So, not much of a "battle" there.

Ask your professors to examine the details of the action at Prevesa, and they will be at a loss to explain otherwise.

Respectfully,

L_D

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  Quote akıncı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 09:22
Thanks that was very helpful now i will go and tease all my Turkish history teachers.But can you please giv me the names of your reasources.I have diffuculty beliving what you wrote because everything that i have read till now said that preveze was a battle.???
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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 03:10
So Andrea Doria didnt fight?Maybe It was because he knew he was going to be defeated.Anyway they did retreat which means even though it wasnt much of a battle it was still a victory.
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  Quote akıncı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 03:12
But even if Preveze was not a battle it was a victory(you are right gazi).They spent all the money to prepare a fleet to sink the Ottoman navy,they go to the shore to fight and get too scared,go back.Too bad.İt's a victory.
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 07:25

Originally posted by akıncı

Thanks that was very helpful now i will go and tease all my Turkish history teachers.But can you please giv me the names of your reasources.

Uh, I already listed all my sources in my post on page 1 of this thread...

Anyway, here they are again:

John F. Guilmartin, Jr.  Galleons and Galleys

Jan Glete Warfare at Sea 1500-1650

Sir Charles Oman  History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century

Ernle Bradford The Knights of the Order

Lord Kinross The Ottoman Centuries

I have diffuculty beliving what you wrote because everything that i have read till now said that preveze was a battle.???

Every book (including the ones above) will list Prevesa as a "battle", but that doesn't mean that it literally qualifies as such (as Guilmartin and Oman especially indicate).  The Battle of the Spurs in 1513 is likewise listed as a "battle", and yet it wasn't really much of one either.

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  Quote akıncı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 09:23
thanks
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 09:42

 

Rule number one in history: In western sources, if Turks are victorious it is not considered as battle.

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 10:08
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 10:09
Originally posted by Alparslan

 

Rule number one in history: In western sources, if Turks are victorious it is not considered as battle.

BS

Guilmartin, Oman, et al are quite objective, and list truly significant Ottoman victories accordingly (eg., Nicopolis, Jerba, etc).  Guilmartin especially goes into detail about Turkish advantages, and so on.

Look at the statistics I posted on page 1 of this thread, and then tell me I'm wrong.

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 01:56

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Look at the statistics I posted on page 1 of this thread, and then tell me I'm wrong.

If your statistics are true so you are right. But I am not sure if your sources are right.

In fact I have to check it too.

 

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 07:41
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Look at the statistics I posted on page 1 of this thread, and then tell me I'm wrong.

If your statistics are true so you are right. But I am not sure if your sources are right.

In fact I have to check it too.

 

Go right ahead, my friend.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:58
It's funny for a Turk when Jerba is considered a battle and Preveza is not
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:39
Preveza was a major victory for the Turks. Much prestige was gained and a large measure of superiority in the mediteranean till Lepanto. The battle itself, according to sources written in English, did not show a tremendous loss of ships for either side however. Barbarossa came out of the harbor only to quickly annihilate a few Christian ships. When Andrea Doria finally made a tactical decision, he ordered his allied ships to withdraw. Afterwards, Turkish confidence grew and the European confidence diminished.

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 08:26

Originally posted by ihsan

It's funny for a Turk when Jerba is considered a battle and Preveza is not

It wasn't funny for the Spanish, who lost many ships and--more importantly--so much skilled manpower at Jerba. 

The Ottomans would experience losses along the same lines (but even greater in magnitude) at Lepanto.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 06:25

Ah LD and everyone, I found some stuff for you in two sources - enjoy them as I'll translate them into English

 

Târîh-i Peçevî (written by Peçevî İbrâhîm (Ibrâhîm of Quinque Ecclesia) [1574-1650]):

While the Pâdişâh [Süleymân I] was launching the Boğdan (Moldavia) Campaign, he also started the preparation for a perfect navy for Kapudân Gâzî Hayre'd-dîn Paşa:

First of all three thousand Tüfekli Yeniçeris (musket-armed janissaries), Ali Beğ the Sancâk Beği of Kocaeli [modern İzmit/Nicomedia] from the Ümerâ [governors], the other Ali Beğ and Mustafa Beğ the Beğ of Alâiye (Alanya) were all given to the navy with their provincial troops (year 945 in the Hicrî calender). They sailed with three hundred vessels from Haliç (Golden Horn) in İstanbul for war in the ninth day of Saferî.

[Describes how Aegean islands were captured, pillaged or forced into submition]

They learned that more than three hundred vessels were coming from the Pope, Venice, France and Spain.

Kapudân Gâzî Hayre'd-dîn Paşa took a nice precaution by setting up some ambushes near the Preveze fort. For the probability of the enemy landing troops to there by selecting good ships from the navy, he had positioned soldiers to the rocks but some vessels from the enemy arrived and learned of this. Upon this, this precaution was abandoned, the enemy navy arrived and stopped ten miles near Preveze.

Kapudân Paşa opened the banners, played the drums, stopped aganist the enemy seven miles near Preveze by putting trust in Allâh and to the soul of the Prophet. Night came when he was going to engage in combat with all the vessels so the war had to be posponed to tomorrow.

That night, while patrol boats and galleys from both sides were sailing and patrolling, the enemies fled after seeing safety in escape without making any noise and sound in the middle of the night.

When the patrol boats delivered these news, Kapudân Paşa and the navy followed them but their track wasn't found anywhere.

The next day was Friday. They placed watchmen on the poles at early morning, these reported that they saw barchas at the region of Kefalonya. The navy sailed on them immediately. But when these got the news that the Islamic navy was sailing on them, they arranged the barchas and galleys in lines and sailed away with the appropriate blowing wind. The Islamic navy sailed on them. It was Allâh's wisdom, the wind stopped blowing. They were forced to pull out their barchas and galleys. The Islamic navy and gâzîs appeared and bombarded the enemy. Their captain named Andre Dorya became the rear guard with his elite galleys and bombarded the Islamic gâzîs while fleeing away and when he understood that he won't take it any more, he fled immediately with his personal galley. His other galleys followed him and withdrew from the battlefield. Even his own barchas bombarded their own galleys and wounded most of them. Own gâzîs bombarded the enemy barchas as they wished and wounded most of them. They sank some of them and pillaged the things that were in them.

Thanks to Allâh, that much of enemy came with such a big mission but they wererouted and the Islamic troops were victorious.

The Pâdişâh's conquests in Boğdan and later Kapudân Hayre'd-dîn Paşa's victorious wars created great happiness among the Muslims.

Incrementa atque decrementa Aulae Othomanicae (written by Dimitri Kantemir, Vojvode of Moldavia [1673-1723]):

By the way, while on the way back from Yemen, Hayre'd-dîn Paşa spots an enemy fleet of three hundred vessels near Crete. After a fierce and stubborn battle, some of the ships sinks, some are captured and the enemy fleet is completely destroyed. At some other day, he spots another enemy navy created from several nations and commanded by Andrevirius at the harbor of Preveze and he attacks them with courage. But the enemy navy, using their advantegous position, acts bravely and for a long time, it couldn't be guessed which side the victory would be gained. However, at the end, the Christians realises that they won't take this any longer and seeing that the night has come, withdraw while giving some of their vessels to the victorious Turkish admiral for the victory he won.

I guess this battle wasn't as minor and as insignificant as LD thinks

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 09:27

Hmmm...how did I post that winky face?I really don't remember.

The book I bought recently says that Doria Lost 128 ships. 

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 21:35
Originally posted by ihsan

Ah LD and everyone, I found some stuff for you in two sources - enjoy them as I'll translate them into English

 

Târîh-i Peçevî (written by Peçevî İbrâhîm (Ibrâhîm of Quinque Ecclesia) [1574-1650]):

While the Pâdişâh [Süleymân I] was launching the Boğdan (Moldavia) Campaign, he also started the preparation for a perfect navy for Kapudân Gâzî Hayre'd-dîn Paşa:

First of all three thousand Tüfekli Yeniçeris (musket-armed janissaries), Ali Beğ the Sancâk Beği of Kocaeli [modern İzmit/Nicomedia] from the Ümerâ [governors], the other Ali Beğ and Mustafa Beğ the Beğ of Alâiye (Alanya) were all given to the navy with their provincial troops (year 945 in the Hicrî calender). They sailed with three hundred vessels from Haliç (Golden Horn) in İstanbul for war in the ninth day of Saferî.

[Describes how Aegean islands were captured, pillaged or forced into submition]

They learned that more than three hundred vessels were coming from the Pope, Venice, France and Spain.

Kapudân Gâzî Hayre'd-dîn Paşa took a nice precaution by setting up some ambushes near the Preveze fort. For the probability of the enemy landing troops to there by selecting good ships from the navy, he had positioned soldiers to the rocks but some vessels from the enemy arrived and learned of this. Upon this, this precaution was abandoned, the enemy navy arrived and stopped ten miles near Preveze.

Kapudân Paşa opened the banners, played the drums, stopped aganist the enemy seven miles near Preveze by putting trust in Allâh and to the soul of the Prophet. Night came when he was going to engage in combat with all the vessels so the war had to be posponed to tomorrow.

That night, while patrol boats and galleys from both sides were sailing and patrolling, the enemies fled after seeing safety in escape without making any noise and sound in the middle of the night.

When the patrol boats delivered these news, Kapudân Paşa and the navy followed them but their track wasn't found anywhere.

The next day was Friday. They placed watchmen on the poles at early morning, these reported that they saw barchas at the region of Kefalonya. The navy sailed on them immediately. But when these got the news that the Islamic navy was sailing on them, they arranged the barchas and galleys in lines and sailed away with the appropriate blowing wind. The Islamic navy sailed on them. It was Allâh's wisdom, the wind stopped blowing. They were forced to pull out their barchas and galleys. The Islamic navy and gâzîs appeared and bombarded the enemy. Their captain named Andre Dorya became the rear guard with his elite galleys and bombarded the Islamic gâzîs while fleeing away and when he understood that he won't take it any more, he fled immediately with his personal galley. His other galleys followed him and withdrew from the battlefield. Even his own barchas bombarded their own galleys and wounded most of them. Own gâzîs bombarded the enemy barchas as they wished and wounded most of them. They sank some of them and pillaged the things that were in them.

Thanks to Allâh, that much of enemy came with such a big mission but they wererouted and the Islamic troops were victorious.

The Pâdişâh's conquests in Boğdan and later Kapudân Hayre'd-dîn Paşa's victorious wars created great happiness among the Muslims.

Incrementa atque decrementa Aulae Othomanicae (written by Dimitri Kantemir, Vojvode of Moldavia [1673-1723]):

By the way, while on the way back from Yemen, Hayre'd-dîn Paşa spots an enemy fleet of three hundred vessels near Crete. After a fierce and stubborn battle, some of the ships sinks, some are captured and the enemy fleet is completely destroyed. At some other day, he spots another enemy navy created from several nations and commanded by Andrevirius at the harbor of Preveze and he attacks them with courage. But the enemy navy, using their advantegous position, acts bravely and for a long time, it couldn't be guessed which side the victory would be gained. However, at the end, the Christians realises that they won't take this any longer and seeing that the night has come, withdraw while giving some of their vessels to the victorious Turkish admiral for the victory he won.

I guess this battle wasn't as minor and as insignificant as LD thinks

Tactically speaking, it was pretty darn minor, and I don't see anything above which contradicts my posts (aside from Dimitri claiming that "enemy fleet is completely destroyed", which certainly didn't happen).

I gave you specific figures, and you replied with unspecific propaganda. 

Jerba was far more damaging to the Christian cause in the Mediterranean.

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 21:37
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

The book I bought recently says that Doria Lost 128 ships. 

At Prevesa?

No.

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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