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Greatest Ottoman Naval Commander

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Poll Question: Who was the greatest Ottoman naval commander, and why?
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17 [85.00%]
2 [10.00%]
1 [5.00%]
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greatest Ottoman Naval Commander
    Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 10:24
Who's your choice?
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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 11:41
I think this poll is not complete. What abour Piri Reis? He drew all the American and Antartic coasts without mistake!
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  Quote Long Live The Mughals Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 05:37
I Hate All Americans and one day they will burn in Hell.
Bush is the leader of all Freemasons and must Die.


LONG LIVE THE BELIEVERS!!!!!!!
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 11:56

Originally posted by Long Live The Mughals

I Hate All Americans and one day they will burn in Hell.
Bush is the leader of all Freemasons and must Die.


LONG LIVE THE BELIEVERS!!!!!!!

L L T M,

1.  What does your post have to do with this thread?

2.  Why do you "hate all Americans"?

3.  What do you have against the Freemasons?

Genuinely Curious,

L_D

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 13:59

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

He drew all the American and Antartic coasts without mistake!

Yes, but did he actually go there? Or did he just copy from someone else?

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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 12:27

I think Barbarossa was a pirate working for the sultan, not an ottoman naval commander.

Piri Reis was an interesting character. Don't know where he's got his info from.

And by the way, Piri Reis doesn't sound a turkish name. Any explanation for that?

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 18:30
Originally posted by Infidel

I think Barbarossa was a pirate working for the sultan, not an ottoman naval commander.

He was an Algerian corsair (along with his brother) who ultimately became Admiral of the Ottoman Navy.  IIRC, his title was "The Drawn Sword of Islam".

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 04:48
Originally posted by Infidel

I think Barbarossa was a pirate working for the sultan, not an ottoman naval commander.

Piri Reis was an interesting character. Don't know where he's got his info from.

And by the way, Piri Reis doesn't sound a turkish name. Any explanation for that?

His original name was "Muhiddin Piri". The sailors were called "Reis", so he was known as "Piri Reis". And he was Turkish. His uncle was from Karaman, and he was born in Gallipoli...

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 09:22

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

He was an Algerian corsair (along with his brother) who ultimately became Admiral of the Ottoman Navy.  IIRC, his title was "The Drawn Sword of Islam".

He was a Turkish pirate around Algeria. He was not Algerian.

His title was Hzr I gues it means green. It is also one of the names of prophets in Quran. Which nickname of him means "the drown sword of Islam"? First time I hear such tings.  

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 15:14
what was the Ottoman Admirals-rank, Hmayun or Reis?
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 16:11
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

He was an Algerian corsair (along with his brother) who ultimately became Admiral of the Ottoman Navy.  IIRC, his title was "The Drawn Sword of Islam".

He was a Turkish pirate around Algeria. He was not Algerian.

If you want to get technical, then he wasn't "Turkish" either--he was actually from the Island of Lesbos, and his mother was the daughter of a Greek priest.

But the point is that he was ultimately in control of Algiers by 1516, and hence he could be described as an "Algerian corsair".  Perhaps I should have referred to him simply as a "Barbary corsair" instead.

His title was Hzr I gues it means green. It is also one of the names of prophets in Quran. Which nickname of him means "the drown sword of Islam"? First time I hear such tings.

Actually, wasn't Khair ed Din his title ("the gift of God")? 

Not sure about "The Drawn Sword of Islam" bit, though...

 

 

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 05:06

Originally posted by Temujin

what was the Ottoman Admirals-rank, Hmayun or Reis?

Kaptani Derya

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

If you want to get technical, then he wasn't "Turkish" either--he was actually from the Island of Lesbos, and his mother was the daughter of a Greek priest.

In fact Barbaros, himself has written something about his life. His grandfather Abdullah and his father Nurullah Yakup was sipahi and ethically Turk from Karasi - Anatolia then settled to Balkans in Varna after the conquests. His father participated to the conquest of Midilli (Mytiliene) with Mehmet the conqueror as marine foreces to fight in land and settled in the island. He was not even in navy. Bonova village in the island has been given to him as timar. He wrote all of these. He said that his father has married with a women from the island but he is not talking about her ethnicity. Some sources say she was from refugees of Andulus, Spain. But he did not say this so we connot be sure about it. She may be Arabic, Sefarad Jews, Italian or Greek. We do not know.

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

But the point is that he was ultimately in control of Algiers by 1516, and hence he could be described as an "Algerian corsair".  Perhaps I should have referred to him simply as a "Barbary corsair" instead.

At the beginning yes he was a pirate. But later he participated to Ottoman navy and became admiral. We cannot say he was a pirate after this since he defeated a huge crusader navy composed of Spanish, Poruguese, Italian (Genoa, Venice, Papacy) and Malta in 28 September 1538 in Preveze. Did you see a pirate like this?

 

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Actually, wasn't Khair ed Din his title ("the gift of God")? 

Not sure about "The Drawn Sword of Islam" bit, though...

Yes his name was Hayreddin. You say Khair ed Din and the meaning is right.

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 08:30
Barbaros Hayreddin Kaputan Pasha was recruited formally into the Ottoman navy by Yavuz Sultan Selim. 
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 09:26

Originally posted by Alparslan

At the beginning yes he was a pirate. But later he participated to Ottoman navy and became admiral. We cannot say he was a pirate after this since he defeated a huge crusader navy composed of Spanish, Poruguese, Italian (Genoa, Venice, Papacy) and Malta in 28 September 1538 in Preveze. Did you see a pirate like this?

First of all, Prevesa wasn't much of a "battle"--only a number of Venetian vessels (some galleys, and the famous "Galleon of Venice" were engaged with the Turks--and Barbarossa's "victory" therefore had more to do with Andrea Doria's refusal to fight.

Secondly, you did see pirates who defeated "huge Crusader navies"--look at Drake.

 

 

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  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 19:15
Originally posted by Long Live The Mughals

I Hate All Americans and one day they will burn in Hell.
Bush is the leader of all Freemasons and must Die.


LONG LIVE THE BELIEVERS!!!!!!!


The hell is wrong with you?

Don't soil your cause by writing such unconcise statements. Think about who you're really hurting with such outbursts.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 17:57

First of all you should have written the correct forms. They are:

- Barbaros Hayre'd-dn Paa (real name Hzr)

- Turgut Re's

- Kl Ali Paa (known as Ulu Ali Re's before nebaht/Lepanto/Naupaktos).

Hzr Re's and Oru Re's founded a new independent state at Algeria, Oru Reis was killed by the Spanish at Tlemsen and Hzr Re's submitted to Selm I (Yavuz Sultn Selm or Selm the Grim). He became the Kapudn- Dery and the Belerbei of Algeria-Aegean Islands-Hellespont during the reign of Sleymn I (Knn Sultn Sleymn) IIRC. The title Barbaros Hayre'd-dn Paa was given to him by Sultn Sleymn (at least "Hayre'd-dn Paa" was, I'm not sure if he received "Barbaros" from him or from the Europeans).

Pr Re's drew his American map with the help of Spanish and Portugese maps, this is what he explains on his map (the large text on Brazil tells about the story of Columbus). Btw, Pr isn't a Turkish title, must be Persian. I find it very funny for you to minimise the battle of Preveze which was one of the major naval conflicts in World history. Get your facts straight and un-biased (just like how you minimise the Ottomans campaigning in Austria - OTOH don't dare to call me a biased Ottoman-oriented Turk as I'm no fan of the Ottomans and they are clearly not in my area of interest).

Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner, I find it very funny for you to minimise the battle of Preveze which was one of the major naval conflicts in World history. Get your facts straight and un-biased (just like how you minimise the Ottomans campaigning in Austria - OTOH don't dare to call me a biased Ottoman-oriented Turk as I'm no fan of the Ottomans and they are clearly not in my area of interest).

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 19:18

Originally posted by ihsan

Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner, I find it very funny for you to minimise the battle of Preveze which was one of the major naval conflicts in World history. Get your facts straight and un-biased (just like how you minimise the Ottomans campaigning in Austria - OTOH don't dare to call me a biased Ottoman-oriented Turk as I'm no fan of the Ottomans and they are clearly not in my area of interest).

My facts are quite straight, my friend.

The only reason Prevesa was considered a "victory" is because Doria refused to fight.  The subsequent breakup of the alliance likewise gave the Turks an advantage.  When one considers the numbers of ships in each fleet, and then compares that to the number of vessels that were actually engaged, it's pretty clear that it wasn't much of a "battle".

Also, how did I "minimize the Ottomans capaigning in Austria"?

The last time I checked, Sulleyman and his troops were checked at Vienna in 1529, and checked again in 1532.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 11:41

My facts are quite straight, my friend.

No they are not, my friend.

The only reason Prevesa was considered a "victory" is because Doria refused to fight.  The subsequent breakup of the alliance likewise gave the Turks an advantage.  When one considers the numbers of ships in each fleet, and then compares that to the number of vessels that were actually engaged, it's pretty clear that it wasn't much of a "battle".

Hmm let us see what each side had at that battle:

Allied Fleet: 162 galleys, 140 barchas (Spanish galleys), 2.500 cannons, 60.000 troops

Ottoman Fleet: 122 ektiris*, 166 cannons, 20.000 troops (including crewmen, janissaries and tmarl siphs)

* ektiri is a general term for all Ottoman light war ships including galleys.

Now, I call it a major, great and a decisive naval battle when 422 ships, 2.666 cannons and 80.000 men battle on sea

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 08:53
Originally posted by ihsan

My facts are quite straight, my friend.

No they are not, my friend.

Yes they are, my friend.

Read on...

The only reason Prevesa was considered a "victory" is because Doria refused to fight.  The subsequent breakup of the alliance likewise gave the Turks an advantage.  When one considers the numbers of ships in each fleet, and then compares that to the number of vessels that were actually engaged, it's pretty clear that it wasn't much of a "battle".

Hmm let us see what each side had at that battle:

Allied Fleet: 162 galleys, 140 barchas (Spanish galleys), 2.500 cannons, 60.000 troops

Ottoman Fleet: 122 ektiris*, 166 cannons, 20.000 troops (including crewmen, janissaries and tmarl siphs)

* ektiri is a general term for all Ottoman light war ships including galleys.

Now, I call it a major, great and a decisive naval battle when 422 ships, 2.666 cannons and 80.000 men battle on sea

Apparently you didn't read my post (which you quoted above) very carefully. 

You listed the total numbers of ships (which I will clarify below), but you conveniently left out how many ships were actually engaged in combat.

First, let's clarify the forces involved.

 

Different sources give different figures for this battle (as shown by the discrepancies in your numbers and mine).  In the new Cassel's Galleons and Galleys, written by the leading authority on Mediterranean naval warfare, John F. Guilmartin, Jr., the figures are as follows:

Allied Christian Fleet--  130 galleys and "a fleet of supporting sailing ships".

Ottoman Turkish Fleet-- 90 galleys and 50 galliots (light galleys).

Jan Glete, author of Warfare at Sea 1500-1650, echoes Guilmartin and gives figures of 130 Christian galleys vs. 90 Ottoman galleys, but makes no mention of the Christian sailing vessels or the Turkish galliots.

Lord Kinross, in The Ottoman Centuries, gave a total of 200 ships for the Allied Christian fleet (including 50 sailing vessels), but no figures for Barbarossa. 

Sir Charles Oman, in his classic History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century, states that the Allied Christian fleet has some 200 vessels total, but, like Kinross, he gives no figures for Barbarossa's force.

Ernle Bradford, in his Knights of the Order, list the Allied Christian fleet as being composed of 81 Venetian vessels (galleys & sailing ships), 30 Spanish galleys, and a small number of vessels from the Papacy and the Knights of St John.  No figures are given for the Ottomans.

 

In any case, it's clear that both fleets were large.  I never disputed this.

 

What I do have a problem with, however, is when the action off Prevesa is so commonly (and casually) described as a "battle", despite the fact that only a very small number of vessels on each side was actually engaged in combat.

And the naval and military historians are in agreement.

Guilmartin:  "Tactically, the battle of Prevesa was little more than a skirmish.  The Christians lost a handful of galleys and round ships.  The most notable episode was the resistance of a Venetian galleon."

Oman:  "To the surprise and disgust of his captains, more especially of the Venetians, Doria refused to accept the challenge, and held off when the Turks advanced against him.  Only some trivial fighting ensued, in which the Christians lost 7 galleys.  As they had some 200 in line, the affair can hardly be called a battle."

Kinross:  "Barbarossa continued his worrying tactics... capturing two galleys and five sailing vessels, and losing no ships of his own."

Bradford:  "...Barbarossa succeeded in capturing two Venetian galleys, one papal galley, and five Spanish sailing ships."

Now, let's give the respective fleet totals and losses, from the various sources.

Oman: 200 Christian ships total.  Only 7 lost.

Kinross:  200 Christian ships total.  Only 7 lost.

Bradford:  110+ Christian ships total.  Only 8 lost.

 

Given the figures above, Doria lost only 3.5% of his force.

 

And all sources agree that Barbarossa lost no ships at all, which is almost unheard of in galley warfare--this is yet another factor which indicates that there wasn't a great number of ships engaged at Prevesa, and that it was thus not much of a "battle" in the first place.

 

 



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 12:01
don't know all abaut that but i read the ottoman centuries and lord Kinross was being wrong in some chapters on sth. so i'll ignore that but in Turkey every Historian and school says that it was a battle
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