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Heirs of Byzantium

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Poll Question: Who do you believe are the true heirs of Byzantium?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [12.90%]
37 [39.78%]
2 [2.15%]
1 [1.08%]
14 [15.05%]
0 [0.00%]
27 [29.03%]
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Heirs of Byzantium
    Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 23:04
Originally posted by londoner_gb

 Interesting are the compromises the East Roman empire made in orther to appease or show respect and grattitude to its northern neighbour:
  1. First non Roman to recieve the title "Caesar" was the bulgarian knez Tervel /700-721/
  2. First breakthrough in the One Emperor on the Earth doctrine-in 927 PetarI,the son of Simeon the Great was declared Emperor of Bulgaria
  3. First Byzantine princess given to a foreign ruler-as a wife to the above monarch.
  4. Recognition of the "Patriarch" status for the head of the Bulgarian orthodox church
  5. The Bulgarian embassador in Constantinople had  priority over the embassadors of all other nations-bitterly acknowledged by the envoy of the Holy Roman emeror Otto-Lyudprand of Cremona:

"...On this festal occasion the emperor commanded me-I was very ill at the time-and also the Bulgarian envoys who had arrived the day before, to meet him at the church of the holy apostles. And when after the garrulous songs of praise (to Nicephorus) and the celebration of the mass we were invited to table, he placed above me on our side of the table, which was long and narrow, the envoy of the Bulgarians who was shorn in Hungarian fashion, girt with a brazen chain, and as it seemed to me, a catechumen; plainly in scorn of yourselves my august masters. On your behalf I was despised, rejected and scorned. But I thank the Lord Jesus Christ whom you serve with your whole soul that I have been considered worthy to suffer contumely for your sakes. However, my masters, not considering myself but yourselves to be insulted, I left the table. And as I was about indignantly to go away, Leo the marshal of the court and brother of the emperor, and Simeon the chief state secretary came up to me from behind, barking out at me this: "When Peter the king of the Bulgarians married the daughter of Christophorus articles were mutually drawn up and confirmed with an oath to the effect that with us the envoys of the Bulgarians should be preferred, honored and cherished above the envoys of all other nations. That envoy of the Bulgarians although, as you say and as is true, he is shorn, unwashed and girt with a brazen chain, is nevertheless a patrician; and we decree and judge that it would not be right to give a bishop, especially a Frankish one, the, preference over him. And since we know that you do consider this unseemly, we will not now, as you do expect, allow you to return to your quarters, but shall oblige you to take food in a separate apartment with the servants of the emperor.

On account of the incomparable grief in my heart I made no reply to them, but did what they had ordered; judging that table not a suitable place where-I will not say to me, that is, the bishop Liutprand, but to your envoy-an envoy of the Bulgarians is preferred."

 

 
 
 
The Emperor in the West had already been acknowledged as Emperor before the Bulgarian example, it started with Charlemagne, and continued with the middle Kingdom, and to the amalgam of the Middle, and Eastern/German Frankish Kingdom.
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 00:49
He was only acknowledged by the Roman Pope to whom the Byzantines didnt pay much respect ...wich by the way was no different to what they felt towards the German "Saint Roman Empire",as example the attitude of the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus towards their embassador,who by the way was having the audacity to ask for a Byzantine princess for Otto's wife:
"You lie," Emperor Nicephorus said, "the soldiers of your master Otto do -not know bow to ride, nor do they know how to fight on foot; the size of their shields, the weight of their breast-plates, the length of their swords, and the burden of their helms permits them to fight in neither one way nor the other." Then he added, smiling: "their gluttony also impedes them, for their God is their belly, their courage but wind, their bravery drunkenness. Their fasting means dissolution, their sobriety panic. Nor has your master a number of fleets on the sea.
 I alone have a force of navigators; I will attack him with my ships, I will overrun his maritime cities with war, and those which a-re near the rivers I will reduce to ashes. And how, I ask, can he even on land
resist we with his scanty forces?
When I wished to reply to him and to give forth an answer worthy of his boasting, he did not permit me; but added as if to scoff at me: "You are -not Romans but Lombards."
 
Liutprand of Cremona: Report of his Mission to Constantinople


Edited by londoner_gb - 24-Oct-2007 at 17:37
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 18:51
Oh, that was a good one!LOL
Pure byzantine arrogance.

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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 19:07
 Of course Athanassios we are not only related by our common Byzantine heritage but the Slavic blood in our veins too..wich by the way would not surprise me by being more in you than in us Wink!

All unprejudiced investigators now admit the cogency of the evidence which shows that by the middle of the eighth century there was a very large Slavonic element in the population of the Peloponnesus1 The Slavonic settlements began in the latter half of the sixth century, and in the middle of the eighth century the depopulation caused by the great plague invited the intrusion of large masses. The general complexion of the peninsula was so Slavonic that it was called Sclavonia. The only question to be determined is, how were these strangers distributed, and what parts of the Peloponnesus were Slavised? For answering these questions, the names of places are our chief evidence. Here, as in the Slavonic districts which became part of Germany, the Slavs ultimately gave up their own language and exerted hardly any sensible influence on the language which they adopted; but they introduced new local names which survived. It was just the reverse, as has been well remarked by Philippson, in the case of the Albanese settlers, who in the fourteenth century brought a new ethnical element into the Peloponnesus. The Albanians preserved their own language, but the old local names were not altered.

Now we find Slavonic names scattered about in all parts of the Peloponnesus; but they are comparatively few on the Eastern side, in Argolis and Eastern Laconia. They are numerous in Arcadia and Achaia, in Elis, Messenia and Western Laconia. But the existence of Slavonic settlements does not prove that the old Hellenic inhabitants were abolished in these districts. In fact we can only say that a large part of Elis, the slopes of Taygetus, and a district in the south of Laconia, were exclusively given over to the Slavs. Between Megalopolis and Sparta there was an important town, which has completely disappeared, called Veligosti; and this region was probably a centre of Slavonic settlers.

See the impartial investigation of Dr. A. Philippson, Zur Ethnographie des Peloponnes in Petermanns Mittheilungen, vol. 36, p. 1 sqq. and 33 sqq., 1890.

The conversion and Hellenisation of the Slavs went on together from the ninth century, and, with the exception of the settlements in Taygetus and the Arcadian mountains, were completed by the twelfth century. At the time of the conquest of the Peloponnesus by Villehardouin, four ethnical elements are distinguished by Philippson: (1) Remains of the old Hellenes, mixed with Slavs, in Maina and Tzakonia, (2) Byzantine Greeks (i.e., Byzantinised Hellenes, and settlers from other parts of the Empire) in the towns. (3) Greek-speaking Slavo-Greeks (sprung from unions of Slavs and Greeks). (4) Almost pure Slavs in Arcadia and Taygetus. The 2nd and 3rd classes tend to coalesce and ultimately become indistinguishable (except in physiognomy).

The old Greek element lived on purest perhaps in the district between Mt. Parnon and the Sea Eastern Laconia. The inhabitants came to be called Tzakones and the district Tzakonia; and they developed a remarkable dialect of their own. They were long supposed to be Slavs. See A. Thumb, Die ethnographische Stellung der Zakonen (Indogerm. Forschungen, iv. 195 sqq., 1894).

Fallmerayer, in harmony with his Slavonic theory, proposed to derive the name Morea from the Slavonic more, sea. This etymology defied the linguistic laws of Slavonic word-formation. Other unacceptable derivations have been suggested, but we have at last got back to the old mulberry, but in a new sense. ὁ Μορέας is formed from μορέα, mulberry tree, with the meaning plantation or region of mulberry trees (= μορεών). We find the name first applied to Elis, whence it spread to the whole Peloponnesus; and it is a memorial of the extensive cultivation of mulberries for the manufacture of silk. This explanation is due to the learned and scientific Greek philologist, M. G. N. Hatzidaks (Byz. Zeitsch. vol. 2, p. 283 sqq., and vol. 5, p. 341, sqq.).

[1 ]The thesis of Fallmerayer, who denied that there were any descendants of the ancient Hellenes in Greece, was refuted by Hopf (and Hertzberg and others); but all Hopfs arguments are not convincing. Fallmerayers brilliant book stimulated the investigation of the subject (Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea im Mittelalter,

2 vols., 1830-6).Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 9 [1776]
 
So are we rather cultural descendants to the ancients rather than ethnic ones?Apparently majority of the participants in the poll voted that we are none of the aboveShocked
 
So,
Qui suis-je?!
and
Who art Thou Athanassios?Confused


Edited by londoner_gb - 24-Oct-2007 at 19:14
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 19:56
londoner_gb your ability to reduce information to fit your desired propaganda is endless. The title is called Heirs of Byzantium. Being vague, each member is left to choose what they think such affinities would be. The spectrum of possibilities would include cultural, political or racial ones among a few.
 
Your last post does mention the Slavic invasion of thrace and especially most parts of Greece. You, however, take that to mean that the substance of Greeks today are now so Slavic that a close affinity to Bulgars is verified. And if the two are closely racially related then the two must be heirs to Byzantium. No? Anyway that is only one line of thinking. An ethnic line of thinking (or in your case more wishful thinking). Even if you consider the common Slavic history you are not alone. Neither were the Byzantines either, since all of the Balkans were invaded by the Slavs. Maybe others are ethnic heirs of Byzantium too. You know, the Serbs, Albanians, Croats, Romanians, Bosnians, and anyone else that were touched during the medieval Slav fest. Maybe the Russians and Slovaks can incur a Byzantine heritage as well. The more the merrier I say.
 
Yes, you tried to spill your Bulgar pride once again only to have it backfire. Will you learn more than you want to? Not at all. Instead you would rather propagate.
 
Who art Thou londoner gb?Confused


Edited by Seko - 24-Oct-2007 at 19:59
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 20:11
So in order to sum things up and show this topic as a natural continuation of the "Bulgarian origins" thread, I declare the following:
The origins of the proto-Bulgars lay in West Asia Minor/Somewhere around the mont Olympus/do not mistake it with the other one in nowadays Greece!/ By that time they were known by the name "Brygoi" Probably derived from Bythinia +Frygia also including a paphlagonian element/the conection with the Pelemeni rulers of the latter and the first Bulgar king mentionned in the list of pop Yovcho/Mixed  wit the Cymmerian invaders to whom they were related anyway ...When Alexander of Macedon came they were forced to leave their lands and moved north-east around Caucasus mountains where they were acknowledged by the Armenian historians,and possibly mixed up with the latter...It is possible that there is also Galatian/Kelt / element in them from neighboring Galatia which would explain why eventually a group of them moved deep west into North-Western Europe where they are mentioned in the Irish sagas...It is also possible that another group moved deep into the opposite direction as far as Pamir in order to control the Silk road and thus generate a good income.The rest however remained in the lands around the Black sea..from there onwards you guys know the story...
Those who remained in Western Anatolia were more than happy with the coming of the Roman rule which they saw as imposed by their brethren- Aeneus's  descendants...and later with the continental thracians took an important part into the build up of the Eastern Roman Empire-lets not forget where Constantine the Great was from...
When by the V c the first groups of the Bulgars came in the Balkans, they were already alienated by the long years of absence from their native lands...their relations /Byzanines and Bulgarians/ were ambiguos-sometimes allies,sometimes foes- a legacy to continue for many centuries...
 
The closest point in recent history to an Union of the Byzantine and Bulgarian heritage was during the Balkan war1912-13 when the Bulgarian army was stopped by the Western powers from taking Constantinople.
The crown-replica of the Justinians' one was ready in the cupboard of the Bulgarian Tzar Ferdinand...Helas,no Great power would allow this natural act of union of two natural halves!
Amen!
The Tzar of Bulgaria Ferdinand/right/ returns the sabre to its owner Shukri Pasha after the unconditional surrender of the Turkish army 1912


Edited by londoner_gb - 24-Oct-2007 at 21:52
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 20:17
Originally posted by Seko

londoner_gb your ability to reduce information to fit your desired propaganda is endless. The title is called Heirs of Byzantium. Being vague, each member is left to choose what they think such affinities would be. The spectrum of possibilities would include cultural, political or racial ones among a few.
 
Your last post does mention the Slavic invasion of thrace and especially most parts of Greece. You, however, take that to mean that the substance of Greeks today are now so Slavic that a close affinity to Bulgars is verified. And if the two are closely racially related then the two must be heirs to Byzantium. No? Anyway that is only one line of thinking. An ethnic line of thinking (or in your case more wishful thinking). Even if you consider the common Slavic history you are not alone. Neither were the Byzantines either, since all of the Balkans were invaded by the Slavs. Maybe others are ethnic heirs of Byzantium too. You know, the Serbs, Albanians, Croats, Romanians, Bosnians, and anyone else that were touched during the medieval Slav fest. Maybe the Russians and Slovaks can incur a Byzantine heritage as well. The more the merrier I say.
 
Yes, you tried to spill your Bulgar pride once again only to have it backfire. Will you learn more than you want to? Not at all. Instead you would rather propagate.
 
Who art Thou londoner gb?Confused
Seko I am talking about direct heirs rather than influenced civilisations and nations...but the latter is also welcome in the toppic as it will embellish the conversation...I dont know about the Slovaks though..do you mean anything specific?Is it the Great Moravian mission of Cyrill and Methodius and their near miss?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 21:34
I think that the state most influenced by the Byzantine Empiren is Turkey. No matter that religion changed, it seems to me that there was a continuity between the imperial ambitions of both nations. I am wrong in thinking that?
The second most influenced, I believe, is Russia, that took the role of sucessor of Bizantium. The very title of Czar, and the idea of the "third Rome", points to that link. In the same way, sometimes it seems the U.S. believes it descends of the first Rome through Britain.
 
 
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 22:37
lononer_gb ,in Fallmareyer's ages, the ancient settlements which approve that everything in Greece and ancient Minor Asia were built and inhabited by Greeks were not excavated yet. Try to use sources before the Roman domination(Byzantium) and /or after the discovery of electricity, they are considered as more reliable. But in order to prevent any funny quote of you about Herodotus,Xenophon etc.etc. i warn you that i speak this language .

Oh, you forgot Nikiphoros I, who massively removed the majority Slavic populations of the Greek peninsula and replaced it with Greeks from Asia minor, in order to prevent the loss of Greece due to the Bulgarian danger.The rest were hellenized.Everything else is uppon the geneticists.

 Thank you Krum, saviour of the Greek blood's purityDead. What a ridiculous conversation...

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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 23:45
- Athanassios you are using modern nationalistic logic to explain acts done in a completely different era for completely different motives! I agree that Byzantine emperors often resettled populations-slavs into Asia minor,Armenians.Syrians,Turks and all other Anatolian peoples to the Balkans..their logic was rather to profit from the net gain of inhabitants rather than preserving the purity of the Hellenic race in the lands of nowadays Greece,because population back then in the midddle ages was insufficient and more esteemed even than possessing lands...Other reason is the eventual assimilation of the different populations when they are broken into smaller entities...I believe You know how many Bulgarian rulers depopulated massive areas in the warzones and resettled their population in Bulgaria this happened to Thrace Macedonia and Thessaly in numerous occasion...Not to mention the economic/to use the modern term/and refugee migration in both direction throughout the time...Only during one year of the long reign of Symeon the Great the Byzantines reported that 200 000 bulgarians left their homes to seek refuge in Byzantium being tired of their ruler's warlike politics and cruel taxation
So You cannot explain the "saving" of the  Ancient Greek genes by a single act of the above Nikephorus...especially in such an ethnic crossroad as the Balkans and Asia minor...
 
 Modern days genetics often reach unexpected conclusions for example that the different latin speaking minorities/Aromani,Megleni etc.../are less connected genetically with each other and with the Romanian people than with the surrounding main Balkanik ethnosses...or even the other one that proved that nowadays italians are more connected to the Thracians than the nowadays Balkanics/samples were taken from Greeks,Bulgarians,Romanians and Albanians...Its quite a mess I reckon...
 
..Not to mention your country's biggest population exchange in recent history with Turkey which I believe ammounted to a third of your total population, and what proportion of the above was actually  ethnic Greek moslems that you exchanged for Turkish speaking christians,for rather the religion was the criteria rather than language and ethnicity during that act...
-the above anatolian immigrants you settled mostly in Macedonia to the point of their becoming the majority of the population in that area .nowadays I follow with bemusement the debates between the descendants of the above mentioned anatolian refugees and the FYROMians about who is the real heir of AlexanderLOL..
O tempora o mores...


Edited by londoner_gb - 25-Oct-2007 at 00:18
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 00:49
Originally posted by londoner_gb

 
..Not to mention your country's biggest population exchange in recent history with Turkey which I believe ammounted to a third of your total population, and what proportion of the above was actually  ethnic Greek moslems that you exchanged for Turkish speaking christians,for rather the religion was the criteria rather than language and ethnicity during that act...
 
 
Hmmm...
 
I would steer clear of ethnic gambit unless you are certain of your opening arguement. Reason being is that you are twisting ethnicity with religion. Turks of both Anatolia and Greece were predominantly moslem. Greeks of Anatolia and Greece were Christians. No need to mix them up. Cause even under Greek or Turkish rule prior to the exchanges each ethnicity kept to their religion. Even today the Moslem minorities of thrace are ethnically Turkish. Not ethnic Greeks though they are Greek citizens. Surely their were Christian Turks and Moslem Greeks but not to the extent of those already mentioned.
 
The Treaty of Lausanne affected the populations in the following way: Almost all Greeks and Turkish speaking Christian populations from middle Anatolia (Asia Minor) but mainly Greeks from the Ionia region (e.g. Smyrna, Aivali), the Pontus region (e.g. Trebizond, Samsunta), Prusa (Bursa), the Bithynia region (e.g., Nicomedia / Izmit, Chalcedon / Kadıky) and other regions of Asia Minor, as well as from the European Eastern Thrace region, numbering up to 1.5 million people, were expelled or formally denaturalized. Expelled from Greece were about 500,000 people, predominantly Turks, as well as other Muslims; from Crete, those speaking a Greek dialect intermingled with some Turkish loanwords, Muslim Roma, Pomaks, Cham Albanians, and Megleno-Romanians.


Edited by Seko - 25-Oct-2007 at 00:57
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 01:34
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Seko the first step in proving our legitimate claim on Byzantium is by stressing on the fact that we are the oldest population in the Balkans and Asia Minor!
 
Thats funny!LOL
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 02:08
Originally posted by londoner_gb

So in order to sum things up and show this topic as a natural continuation of the "Bulgarian origins" thread, I declare the following:
The origins of the proto-Bulgars lay in West Asia Minor/Somewhere around the mont Olympus/do not mistake it with the other one in nowadays Greece!/ By that time they were known by the name "Brygoi" Probably derived from Bythinia +Frygia also including a paphlagonian element/the conection with the Pelemeni rulers of the latter and the first Bulgar king mentionned in the list of pop Yovcho/Mixed  wit the Cymmerian invaders to whom they were related anyway ...When Alexander of Macedon came they were forced to leave their lands and moved north-east around Caucasus mountains where they were acknowledged by the Armenian historians,and possibly mixed up with the latter...It is possible that there is also Galatian/Kelt / element in them from neighboring Galatia which would explain why eventually a group of them moved deep west into North-Western Europe where they are mentioned in the Irish sagas...It is also possible that another group moved deep into the opposite direction as far as Pamir in order to control the Silk road and thus generate a good income.The rest however remained in the lands around the Black sea..from there onwards you guys know the story...
Those who remained in Western Anatolia were more than happy with the coming of the Roman rule which they saw as imposed by their brethren- Aeneus's  descendants...and later with the continental thracians took an important part into the build up of the Eastern Roman Empire-lets not forget where Constantine the Great was from...
When by the V c the first groups of the Bulgars came in the Balkans, they were already alienated by the long years of absence from their native lands...their relations /Byzanines and Bulgarians/ were ambiguos-sometimes allies,sometimes foes- a legacy to continue for many centuries...
 
The closest point in recent history to an Union of the Byzantine and Bulgarian heritage was during the Balkan war1912-13 when the Bulgarian army was stopped by the Western powers from taking Constantinople.
The crown-replica of the Justinians' one was ready in the cupboard of the Bulgarian Tzar Ferdinand...Helas,no Great power would allow this natural act of union of two natural halves!
Amen!
The Tzar of Bulgaria Ferdinand/right/ returns the sabre to its owner Shukri Pasha after the unconditional surrender of the Turkish army 1912
 
 
The glorious journey of the Martians continues ! Show must go on!
 
Clap
 
LOLLOLLOL
 
(The inscription on the picture BTW apparently says that the tsar gives the saber in recognition of bravery of the pasha)
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 12:15

So You cannot explain the "saving" of the  Ancient Greek genes by a single act of the above Nikephorus...especially in such an ethnic crossroad as the Balkans and Asia minor...

So, can't you see the sarcasm in my words?

Anyway, Krum moved massively Greeks of Thrace and Macedonia up to Panonia , so that he could use them as specialized workers and as a critical mass of manpower. Many of them escaped during 10th century (between them was the mother of Basil I, Paggalo) but many others stayed behind.

nowadays I follow with bemusement the debates between the descendants of the above mentioned anatolian refugees and the FYROMians about who is the real heir of AlexanderLOL..
O tempora o mores...

I've thought about  it many years before and i find it a little weird too. But if you think logically they can only claim a cultural heritage, not  something else. It might be  likely  for these anatolian refugees  to be genetically closer to Alexander rather than their Fyromian "rivals" but it doesn't really matters. If you distinguish your ancestors by blood(something impossible ,by the way)like they  were cows, good on you...


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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 18:01
Originally posted by Sarmat12

The Tzar of Bulgaria Ferdinand/right/ returns the sabre to its owner Shukri Pasha after the unconditional surrender of the Turkish army 1912
 
 
 
(The inscription on the picture BTW apparently says that the tsar gives the saber in recognition of bravery of the pasha)
 -You may understand Russian but I wouldnt say the same about your Bulgarian Wink..There is some difference between to ''give" and "return"..
a galant gestiure by the Bulgarian monarch -glorious descendant of Louis XIV Bourbon- le Roi Soloeil Approve!
 
"Fighting bravely, Bulgarian troops managed to take the Odrin fortress intact. The fortifications had been built with German assistance were stormed by the 105 000 strong Bulgarian army. The last battle ended on March 13 and resulted in the capitulation of Shukri pasha. A cease-fire agreement was signed on May 17, known in history as the London peace treaty. ..."

 


Edited by londoner_gb - 25-Oct-2007 at 18:02
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 19:08

Originally posted by Athanasios



Anyway, Krum moved massively Greeks of Thrace and Macedonia up to Panonia , so that he could use them as specialized workers and as a critical mass of manpower. Many of them escaped during 10th century (between them was the mother of Basil I, Paggalo) but many others stayed behind.

It wasnt that far in Panonia but in Eastern Walachia not too far from the Danube where they were rescued by the Byzantine fleet in 837...
 
About Basil I Macedon I rather support the version of monk Spiridon who declares him to be of Bulgarian origin...
After the Bulgarian knez Omurtag/814-831/ helped the Byzantines by suppressing the rebellion of Toma "the Slav" who was besieging Constantinople ,he was invited by the emperor Michail I who organised a party in his honor.Wrestling game was organised to amuse the guests but it was always the Bulgarian wrestler who was winning..Basil the Macedon who was a waiter at the royal table decided to wrestle the Bulgarian and won! Surprised the Knez asked him who he was  and Basil answered in Bulgarian that he was from theme Macedonia/I repeat again this is actually in Eastern Thrace:)/ then the Bulgarian ruler said to the Emperor with a smile that this didnt count as a  Romean victory since Basil was a Bulgarian too...
 
Basil wins over his bulgarian opponent


Edited by londoner_gb - 25-Oct-2007 at 20:14
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 19:43
Originally posted by Seko

 
Hmmm...
 
I would steer clear of ethnic gambit unless you are certain of your opening arguement. Reason being is that you are twisting ethnicity with religion. Turks of both Anatolia and Greece were predominantly moslem. Greeks of Anatolia and Greece were Christians. No need to mix them up. Cause even under Greek or Turkish rule prior to the exchanges each ethnicity kept to their religion. Even today the Moslem minorities of thrace are ethnically Turkish. Not ethnic Greeks though they are Greek citizens. Surely their were Christian Turks and Moslem Greeks but not to the extent of those already mentioned.
 
 
The proportion of the population that converted to the Muslim faith varies in the different countries to the point of being majority in the ethnic albanian areas and Bosnia for example... There is plenty of Bulgarian Moslems-pomaks in Thrace /apart from the ethnic turks/ mostly concentrated in the Rhodopes mountain...some of them still live on the Greek side of the border/around 25 000 or more/.I believe during demografic polls they declare themselves Turks rather than Bulgarians...


Edited by londoner_gb - 25-Oct-2007 at 19:44
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 20:00
Originally posted by londoner_gb

 -You may understand Russian but I wouldnt say the same about your Bulgarian Wink..There is some difference between to ''give" and "return"..
a galant gestiure by the Bulgarian monarch -glorious descendant of Louis XIV Bourbon- le Roi Soloeil Approve!
 
 
LOL
 
Seems, that my Bulgarian is even better than yours since you don't know that the very basic word "храброст" is translated as "bravery" into English.
 
Instead of preaching your fantazies you should improve the command of your own native language first. LOL


Edited by Sarmat12 - 25-Oct-2007 at 20:01
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  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 20:21
I was pointing at the difference between 'to give' and 'return'Wink
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 22:49

 
Basil wins over his bulgarian opponent

Who is his opponent? The famous Bulgarian wrestler Chuck Norris-Norrisov?
Had monk Spiridon  written  the  Basil I Makedon's facts?


Edited by Athanasios - 25-Oct-2007 at 22:50

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