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Heirs of Byzantium
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Poll Question: Who do you believe are the true heirs of Byzantium?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [12.90%]
37 [39.78%]
2 [2.15%]
1 [1.08%]
14 [15.05%]
0 [0.00%]
27 [29.03%]
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Seko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:39
lgb, your post above deserves to be posted in the 'Bulgarian origins' thread. It fits more appropriately with your glorified revisionist line of thinking and imagination. Try to give this thread a chance at some form of mature debate.Wink
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:43
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Since this topic is a natural successor of the "Bulgarian origins" topic I will acquaint you with another medieval popular story about the origins of the Bulgarians.According to Teofilakt of Ochrid XIc who translated it " The Bulgarians were chased from their original homeland in Mysia/near Bursa/ by Alexander the Great, only to return in mighty force many, many Years later to conquer Moesia,Thrace Macedonia,and Dardania,Paeonia and Thessaly,all the lands to the vicinity of Constantinople until the reign of Basil II Macedon..."
 
Ah Theophylact; I'm rather fond of his late eminence. After all, he did sum up Byzantine Scriptural commentary in his Explanation. I haven't read any of his historical works.
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:48
Originally posted by Seko

lgb, your post above deserves to be posted in the 'Bulgarian origins' thread. It fits more appropriately with your glorified revisionist line of thinking and imagination. Try to give this thread a chance at some form of mature debate.Wink
I think its natural while talking about a people and their history to take under consideration what their memories are about it...I cannot see any reason to call the common folk in medieval Bulgaria "revisionists" and "immature"! Vox populi vox dei someone once said!
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 19:56

Other ethnicities in the Balkans lack this kind of recorded popular memory,yet they are rather acknowleged as autochtonous...while to a people with distinctive autochtonous memories and traditions this right is rather disputedWink
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 20:29
 Interesting are the compromises the East Roman empire made in orther to appease or show respect and grattitude to its northern neighbour:
  1. First non Roman to recieve the title "Caesar" was the bulgarian knez Tervel /700-721/
  2. First breakthrough in the One Emperor on the Earth doctrine-in 927 PetarI,the son of Simeon the Great was declared Emperor of Bulgaria
  3. First Byzantine princess given to a foreign ruler-as a wife to the above monarch.
  4. Recognition of the "Patriarch" status for the head of the Bulgarian orthodox church
  5. The Bulgarian embassador in Constantinople had  priority over the embassadors of all other nations-bitterly acknowledged by the envoy of the Holy Roman emeror Otto-Lyudprand of Cremona:

"...On this festal occasion the emperor commanded me-I was very ill at the time-and also the Bulgarian envoys who had arrived the day before, to meet him at the church of the holy apostles. And when after the garrulous songs of praise (to Nicephorus) and the celebration of the mass we were invited to table, he placed above me on our side of the table, which was long and narrow, the envoy of the Bulgarians who was shorn in Hungarian fashion, girt with a brazen chain, and as it seemed to me, a catechumen; plainly in scorn of yourselves my august masters. On your behalf I was despised, rejected and scorned. But I thank the Lord Jesus Christ whom you serve with your whole soul that I have been considered worthy to suffer contumely for your sakes. However, my masters, not considering myself but yourselves to be insulted, I left the table. And as I was about indignantly to go away, Leo the marshal of the court and brother of the emperor, and Simeon the chief state secretary came up to me from behind, barking out at me this: "When Peter the king of the Bulgarians married the daughter of Christophorus articles were mutually drawn up and confirmed with an oath to the effect that with us the envoys of the Bulgarians should be preferred, honored and cherished above the envoys of all other nations. That envoy of the Bulgarians although, as you say and as is true, he is shorn, unwashed and girt with a brazen chain, is nevertheless a patrician; and we decree and judge that it would not be right to give a bishop, especially a Frankish one, the, preference over him. And since we know that you do consider this unseemly, we will not now, as you do expect, allow you to return to your quarters, but shall oblige you to take food in a separate apartment with the servants of the emperor.

On account of the incomparable grief in my heart I made no reply to them, but did what they had ordered; judging that table not a suitable place where-I will not say to me, that is, the bishop Liutprand, but to your envoy-an envoy of the Bulgarians is preferred."

 



Edited by londoner_gb - 22-Oct-2007 at 21:03
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Posts: 66 		  Quote Ioan-Assen II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:00
Originally posted by londoner_gb

What about the ethnic heritage Ioan assen?You support my vue that we are mainly Thracian descendants mixed with slavs/and a spice-up from many others/,which was also the case with Western Anatolia and the Balkanic lands that mostly stayed under Byzantine rule...
So lets analise this dualism!One people-Two Empires!What caused it?
What allowed the creation and persistence of the Bulgarian state?
Was it the unhappiness of the Balkanic Thracians with Byzantium not being able to defend them from the raids of many barbarian intruders?Was it the taxation?Was it the decay of the old slave based system ?Was it the religious conflict?I am open for your suggestions..Wink
No no no! I do not support the view that Thracians lived in 2 countries! They probably lived on many more (Romania, Bulgaria, Byzantium etc).
I dont see continuation in todays bg, because we just had different culture and state. We are mainly the Thracians (genetically), but we are different since Boris I from all of us surrounding us. We became Bulgarians, we have our language, our culture. The main component was the THracians, but not only them. Slavs and the their languahge are crushal for our formation. The state of the Bulgars also. We are different than the other nations. We are different that Byzantium. I just cant get how can we be heirs of Byzantium if we had such a glorious state with unique culture?
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:08
Originally posted by Ioan-Assen II

No no no! I do not support the view that Thracians lived in 2 countries! They probably lived on many more (Romania, Bulgaria, Byzantium etc). ?
Romania was just an insignificant Bulgarian province...
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:12
Originally posted by Ioan-Assen II

No no no! ...but we are different since Boris I from all of us surrounding us.
 
It was exactly with Boris that the process started to turn Bulgaria into an exact replica of Byzantium...Of course not Greek but Bulgarian speaking I agree on that...


Edited by londoner_gb - 22-Oct-2007 at 21:14
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 21:34
I think it was written by Demetrius Chomatian not Theophylact. You confuse short and long versions of Climent of Okhrid's biography.

Edited by Anton - 22-Oct-2007 at 21:36
.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 22:02
Originally posted by Akolouthos

On a serious note, didn't one of the last descendants of the Paleologoi sell his birthright to the Spanish monarchs while he was in exile after the fall of Constantinople? I guess this would give them a claim too, especially since the monarchy--though not the line--is still intact.

-Akolouthos

 
Well, Spain never has claimed to descend of Bizantines but of Romans LOL... Actually, that nation is very conscient it was a former Roman province called Hispania, and built an identity around that concept.
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 22:08
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Akolouthos

On a serious note, didn't one of the last descendants of the Paleologoi sell his birthright to the Spanish monarchs while he was in exile after the fall of Constantinople? I guess this would give them a claim too, especially since the monarchy--though not the line--is still intact.

-Akolouthos

 
Well, Spain never has claimed to descend of Bizantines but of Romans LOL... Actually, that nation is very conscient it was a former Roman province called Hispania, and built an identity around that concept.
 
Which has nothing to do with the connection I was noting. I sought to establish the shaky technical connection between the Byzantine Emperors and the Spanish monarchs. The perception the Spaniards have of themselves, their cultural traditions, etc. are completely unrelated to the point at issue. For the record, however, the Roman emperors did reconquer parts of Visigothic southern Spain during the Byzantine period.
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 22:18
Originally posted by Akolouthos

On a serious note, didn't one of the last descendants of the Paleologoi sell his birthright to the Spanish monarchs while he was in exile after the fall of Constantinople? I guess this would give them a claim too, especially since the monarchy--though not the line--is still intact.

-Akolouthos

 
 
Here is what I found Ako:
 
 
Andreas Palaeologus stayed in Italy under the protection of the Papal States.

Looking for money and a better life, Andreas tried to sell the rights to the Byzantine crown, which had fallen to him de jure since the death of his father Thomas. Charles VIII of France originally agreed to purchase the rights of succession from Andreas in 1494. However Charles predeceased him on April 7, 1498.

Andreas' younger brother Manuel Palaiologos arranged a deal with the Ottoman Sultan Bayazid II, exchanging his rights to the Byzantine throne for a comfortable pension.

Andreas died a pauper in 1503. According to his will his heirs were Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile. While most scholars believe Andreas left no descendants of his own, Donald M. Nicol's The Immortal Emperor recognises a Constantine Palaiologos who served in the Papal Guard and a Maria who married Russian noble Mihail Vasilivich as possible offspring of Andreas.
 
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 22:21
Thanks Seko. I thought I had read something to that effect. Smile
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 22:57
Originally posted by Anton

I think it was written by Demetrius Chomatian not Theophylact. You confuse short and long versions of Climent of Okhrid's biography.
Not to forget mentioning that even "Jagfar Tarihi"-the epos of the Volga-Bulgars also shows the Cimmerians/Scythians as the ancestors of the Bulgars, it also says that they lost their native tongue when they were overrun by the Khazars and adopted the language of the latter...
So complete unanimity in the old Bulgarian sources on the matter!
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 23:24
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Originally posted by Akolouthos

And perhaps it is because I don't have a "balkanic" attitude, but I fail to see what you hope to accomplish by trying to establish an ethnic continuity between the Bulgarians and the ancient Thracians.

 
-Akolouthos
Maybe i am just following our neighbours exampleWink
And by this I dont mean the Macedonians from Fyrom only!Cool
We shall soon see the end of their insignificant rebellion!
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Posts: 546 		  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 23:39
You have 4 more choices, watch your step...

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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 23:56
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Originally posted by Anton

I think it was written by Demetrius Chomatian not Theophylact. You confuse short and long versions of Climent of Okhrid's biography.
Not to forget mentioning that even "Jagfar Tarihi"-the epos of the Volga-Bulgars also shows the Cimmerians/Scythians as the ancestors of the Bulgars, it also says that they lost their native tongue when they were overrun by the Khazars and adopted the language of the latter...
So complete unanimity in the old Bulgarian sources on the matter!
 
Again, this belongs in that other thread. I assume you know how to stick to the topic.
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Posts: 196 		  Quote londoner_gb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 17:45
Seko the first step in proving our legitimate claim on Byzantium is by stressing on the fact that we are the oldest population in the Balkans and Asia Minor!
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Posts: 546 		  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 21:23
Originally posted by londoner_gb

Seko the first step in proving our legitimate claim on Byzantium is by stressing on the fact that we are the oldest population in the Balkans and Asia Minor!


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 22:53
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by Sparten

Its rather stupid to try to relate modern day political enetities to medieval or ancient empires. Even when their is a clear continuity the modern day state often has v different or varied ethos. For example modern Britain is very different from say Norman England, or India from the Mughal or Delhi sultanates.
 
In a way, yes, yet there is nothing wrong with trying to research one's cultural heritage. The problem lies rather in the premise of this thread, because there is not one heir of Byzantium but a great many. All the cultures under the sway or influence of Byzantium were affected by it, and all of them; Greeks, Slavs, Turks, Arabs and so on, are the heirs of Byzantium.
 
I agree there are a great many "heirs" to one degree or another of Eastern Roman / Byzantine society. Territorially, culturally, architectural style wise, etc... political ideologies...
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