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Anton
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Topic: Bulgarian origins Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:18 |
Originally posted by Majkes
If Bulgarians are not Slavs but Thracians then we also are not Slavs but Sarmats. I can't believe so many people voted for Bulgarians being Thracians. Nice theory but what it has to do with reality? |
Again do you speak about Bulgars or Bulgarians? BTW, Ants one of the branch of Slavs lived inclose proximity to Sarmats and were influenced by them (even mixed according to archeological findings).
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:31 |
Culture (music, cuisine, mythology, customs etc.) of south Slavs (not only Bulgarians, but Serbs and Croats too) is different from the rest Slavs and is much more close to Greek, Romanian and Albanian. |
True enough, but that doesn't mean it's Thracian. It developed in time synthesizing much more elements and probably the local one is not the most important.
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:37 |
Neolithic goddess figurine, Stara Zagora, Bulgaria
10 000 years of history!!! Impressive!!! Leaving well behind even Ancien Egypt and Mesopotamia!!!
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Anton
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:41 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
True enough, but that doesn't mean it's Thracian. It developed in time synthesizing much more elements and probably the local one is not the most important. |
Looks like it is local mostly. I agree with you that it included many other elements but local culture was the major part.
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:48 |
Looks like it is local mostly. I agree with you that it included many other elements but local culture was the major part. | I don't think so. Let's take cuisine for an example, do you think Thracians ate tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants, bell peppers and other such vegetables common in the Balkan diet?
For culture, generally, most of the connections with archaic world are related on wishful thinking because we don't know much of the culture of the Thracians. And from what I know, I don't remember Romanians (or Bulgarians or Serbians or other Balkan people) tossing youngsters in spears as a sacrifice for Zalmoxis
Edited by Chilbudios - 13-Oct-2007 at 20:50
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 20:51 |
Originally posted by Chilbudios
Culture (music, cuisine, mythology, customs etc.) of south Slavs (not only Bulgarians, but Serbs and Croats too) is different from the rest Slavs and is much more close to Greek, Romanian and Albanian. | True enough, but that doesn't mean it's Thracian. It developed in time synthesizing much more elements and probably the local one is not the most important. |
Your country/Rumania/ is between the bulk of slavdom and the Balkans yet you continuosly try to convince us that somehow we are more slavic than you!! Is Ireland more Anglo-Saxon than Britain?
Its been proved genetically that Hungary is even more slavic than Russia/despite their Finno-Ugric language/ so stop bringing this linguistic card out!
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 21:00 |
Originally posted by Anton
I suppose you speak about Bulgars (the nomadictribe) not Bulgarians. I didn't participate in this discussion. Do not involve it here. We discussed "scientific progress", remember?
As for Koleda ans staff you now repeat one of the facts that has no proof -- that is was pre-christian. I bet you will find Koled in no source and will not be able to prove that it was pre-christian. Bulgaria didn't influence Poland directly but it influenced Kiev and Moscow Russia. |
I speak about modern Bulgarians, cause I believe nomadic Bulgars or Proto-Bulgars were Turkic speakers.
I believe that the ethnic composition of modern Bulgarians is mostly mixture of Thracians with Slavs with some substrate of Turkic Bulgars who also gave a name to the new nation.
AFAIK, this is, in fact, the most common version about the ethnic roots of Bulgarians and it seems very plausible to me.
Based on the common sense, how would you explain the Bulgarian folk song which was cited here about the god Koleda frozing the Danube?
You think that Christianity preached the believe in other Gods except the Trinity?
You can't explain the existence of reference to this god, by Christianity, it only can be explained by the fact, that it was a Pre-Christian Pagan belief.
I'm, however, ready to hear your explanation about possible promotion by Christianity of the god Koleda. Please explain to me if I got smth. wrong. Thank you.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 21:03 |
Originally posted by londoner_gb
Its been proved genetically that Hungary is even more slavic than Russia/despite their Finno-Ugric language/ so stop bringing this linguistic card out! |
Proved by whom ?
Give the source.
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Anton
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 21:53 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
I speak about modern Bulgarians, cause I believe nomadic Bulgars or Proto-Bulgars were Turkic speakers.
I believe that the ethnic composition of modern Bulgarians is mostly mixture of Thracians with Slavs with some substrate of Turkic Bulgars who also gave a name to the new nation.
AFAIK, this is, in fact, the most common version about the ethnic roots of Bulgarians and it seems very plausible to me.
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Then I got you wrong because you said that there is no reason to suppose that.
Based on the common sense, how would you explain the Bulgarian folk song which was cited here about the god Koleda frozing the Danube?
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What is wrong with it? Both Koleda and Danube are "characters" used quite frequently in Bulgarian folk songs. There is nothing surprising that they coincide in some of them.
You think that Christianity preached the believe in other Gods except the Trinity?
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No, but Christianity had to adopt many pagan customs since people anyway used them. For example Russian Maslenica is far from Christian custom isn't it? Kaljadki is similar pagan custom allowed by official Christianity. Where did it come from is another question.
You can't explain the existence of reference to this god, by Christianity, it only can be explained by the fact, that it was a Pre-Christian Pagan belief.
I'm, however, ready to hear your explanation about possible promotion by Christianity of the god Koleda. Please explain to me if I got smth. wrong. Thank you.
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Your explanation looks most reasonable but there is not the only one. My explanation is also rather reasonable. Which is-- Kaljadki came to Russia with Christianity since in Bulgaria it coincided with Christmas. Thus it was very popular and was linked to Christianity. Please note that I do not insist that it is true but at least it is as reasonable as yours. Sorry for too many "reasonables" -- I am just in a hurry to have some dinner
Edited by Anton - 13-Oct-2007 at 22:06
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 22:32 |
Your country/Rumania/ is between the bulk of slavdom and the Balkans yet you continuosly try to convince us that somehow we are more slavic than you!! |
I'm not sure what Romania has to do with these, but Bulgarian is Slavic language, while Romanian is not (is a Romance one), though both have more or less a Thracian substratum.
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 22:45 |
Martenitsa On 1st March people wish each other "Chestita Baba Marta" (Happy Grandmother March) and give each other red and white woollen tassels for health and good luck
Are You aware of the origins of this custom and does it exist in Your country? I was told its practised in Moldavia as well...
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 22:53 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Originally posted by londoner_gb
Its been proved genetically that Hungary is even more slavic than Russia/despite their Finno-Ugric language/ so stop bringing this linguistic card out! |
Proved by whom ?
Give the source. |
Haplagroup EU7/or 9 -I am not sure/ which is considered the slavic genome is 61% amongst Hungarians,50%in Poles and 47% in Russians sorry I cannot remember the source but there is a lot about it online you can find it easy...BTW the same genome is roughly 15% in Balkanic slavs...
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 23:07 |
Originally posted by londoner_gb
Haplagroup EU7/or 9 -I am not sure/ which is considered the slavic genome is 61% amongst Hungarians,50%in Poles and 47% in Russians sorry I cannot remember the source but there is a lot about it online you can find it easy...BTW the same genome is roughly 15% in Balkanic slavs... |
I'm afraid this is a total nonsense, I mean the numbers for Poles, Russians and Hungarians. Unless you give me an exact source, I will presume it's just a groundless speculation.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 23:09 |
Martenitsa is practiced in Romania, the thing you posted is called Martishor there.
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 23:44 |
It was considered a custom dating from the Turkic Proto-Bulgars in Bulgaria...Any other clues?
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Sarmat
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 00:03 |
I thought it has Thracian origins, rather than Turkic.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 12:37 |
"Martis", as we call it in Greece, is an ancient custom. No one knows it's origins for sure. The priests of the Elefsinia mysteries used to have a string, called "kroki" tied to their right wrist. The custom in Greece is that kids tie a string, sometimes red sometimes blue, to their wrist (or finger) from the 1st to the31st of March and then leave it in the open, so that swallows use it to built their nests. Supposively it protects their faces from being burnt from the first spring sunlight. If Easter is in March, it is burned with the Easter candle.
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 12:41 |
yes in Bulgaria is strips on the wrist as well but red and white colors..left in the open too. by end of march ,tied on a blossoming tree..Mnemorut confirmed the same in Romania and Moldavia...therefore little chance for it to be of turkic-Bulgar origin as claimed by BG specialists...
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Anton
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 12:45 |
Yianis, is this custom common for the whole Greece or only in some districts?
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londoner_gb
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 12:51 |
...Another tradition allegedly traced back to Proto-Bulgars is called"Wolf days"-much less known at least to me...Consist in invoking spells and taboos for protection of domestic animals against wolves attack...practised for few days in early november...I believe they atttribute the ritual to the proto-Bulgars because they had the Animalistic traditions and totems...I rather trace it from the local peasants too...
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