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The kingdom of the Enchelians.

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    Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 15:27
Hi everybody!
 
I like to share with all of you , something that i have been working on for quite a while........it's about the very mysterious and not well known Enchelians, or in Greek Encheleis...other wise the Eel eaters.
 
Lets first see what they're all about and whether they are Greeks or Illyrians  at certain episodes.
 
They established a kingdom somewhere way before the Troy era , they're kingdom is known best by the legendary myth from Cadmus and Harmonia:
 
After having many children, Cadmus and Harmonia 1 left Thebes in order to defend the Encheleans, a people leaving in southern Illyria, which is the region north of Epirus, and there defeated the Illyrian intruders. During their absence, their son Polydorus 2 became king, but it is also said that Pentheus 1, son of the Sparti Echion 2 and Agave 2, daughter of Cadmus, succeeded him on the throne.

Agave 2 herself married King Lycotherses of Illyria, whom she murdered, handing the kingdom over to her father.(any info on this Illyrian king???)
 
This text clearly mentions them as being at war with the Illyrians and mentions them as two separate tribes.also the Encheleans used Athenian/Greek mercenaries which implies they have a Greek native tongue and had atleast enough money for it..


The text above is from www.maicar.com and the text illustrates that a kingdom was established by Cadmus & Harmonia themselves or by their offspring.
 
Apollodorus, Library and Epitome (ed. Sir James George Frazer)

[4] But Cadmus and Harmonia quitted Thebes and went to the Encheleans. As the Encheleans were being attacked by the Illyrians, the god declared by an oracle that they would get the better of the Illyrians if they had Cadmus and Harmonia as their leaders. They believed him, and made them their leaders against the Illyrians, and got the better of them. And Cadmus reigned over the Illyrians, and a son Illyrius was born to him. But afterwards he was, along with Harmonia, turned into a serpent and sent away by Zeus to the Elysian Fields.1
 
Now later Pseudo Skylax informs us that they were Illyrians according to this:
 
ΠΕΡΙΠΛΟΥΣ ΤΟΥ ΣΚΥΛΑΚΑ
Skyllax travels(periegisis)

This is the part with the encheleans
ΕΓΧΕΛΕΙΣ.Οι Εγχελείς είναι ιλλυρικός λαός,μετά τον Ριζούντα.Από την Βουθόη έως την ελληνική πόλη Επίδαμνο, το θαλασσινό ταξίδι διαρκεί μιά μέρα και μιά νύχτα, ενώ από στεριά κρατάει τρείς ημέρες.
Encheleans.the encheleans are an illyrian people after Rizunda(area).From Bouthoe up to the hellenic city Epidamnos, the sea journey lasts a day and a night while from land it lasts 3 days.
 
So the Enchelians were at first Greeks and later assimilated by the Illyrians.Also Strabo mentions in book VII chapter 7 :the Encheleans are not ruled by men of native stock i say, the story of Cadmus and Harmonia are still being pointed out there.
 
Skylax places them around Boethoe which is present Budva in Montenegro.
 
The mythical text places them as Enchelians who supposedly inhabited the area of the Lychnidos lake in todays Ohrid,Fyrom.
 
That area had two small cities called Enchelana and Enchalon respectedly Pogradec/Struga..as the lake Ohrid houses the Eel as same as lake Copais in Thebes where C&H came from and settled in after arriving from Elektra's island Samothrace.(where the two have met)
 
So the Enchelians supposedly inhabited a area as vast as the area from Lychnidos to Budva. There might had been some form of migration from one area to the other which is not clear as of yet.
 
And how long the kingdom of the Enchelians had lasted is also mysterious. the last description of Enchelians seem to be from 2/3 century b.c. after that they seem to have dissapeared...
 
Herodotus mentions them several times:
 
a quote from Herodotus book 9 installment 46, also mentioning the Enchelian kingdom in the Mardonius campaign.

Quote:
Now, I for my part know regarding that oracle that Mardonius said related to the Persians that concerning the Illyrians and the army of the Enchelians it was composed and not rather concerning the Persians. But this composition on its part by Bacis was composed concerning that battle

Now this so called oracle of the Enchelians and Illyrians i will address to  later.
This source mentions the Encheleans as well :
Mythological Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus (3.39.2):



Cadmus accompanied by Harmonia left Thebes and went to the Enchelei. They were at war with the Illyrians who had attacked them, but they had been advised by a god that they would defeat the Illyrians if they were led by Cadmus and Harmonia. They trusted in the prophecy and appointed them as leaders against the Illyrians, who were then defeated. Cadmus ruled over Illyria and had a son Illyrius. Afterwards, together with Harmonia, he was turned into a serpent and Zeus conveyed him to the Elysian Fields?.

Commentary to Virgils Aeneid, Scholia Vaticana (to verse 1.243; II p. 311 Lion):

When Cadmus the son of Agenor, accompanied by his wife Harmonia, left Thebes, and bearing his unjust fate passed through the territory of Macedonia, he left a young son borne to him by Harmonia by the Illyrian River. A serpent twined around this son and, until he had grown, nursed him in the embrace of its body and filled him with the power to subdue this entire country. It named him Illyrius after itself.

Appian, Illyr. 2.3?4:

It is said that the country received its name from Polyphemus son Illyrius; the Cyclops Polyphemus and Galatea had the sons Celtus, Illyrius and Galas; they left Sicily and ruled over the peoples who were named after them: the Celts, the Illyrians, and the Galatians. This mythological story pleases me the most, although many others are also told by many writers. (4) Illyrius had the sons Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus and the daughters Partho, Daortho, Dassaro and others, from whom arose the peoples of the Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei, Autariatae, Dardanians [and Maedi], Partheni, Dassaretii and Darsi. Autarieus himself had a son Pannonius or Paeon, who in turn had Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations also were descended who were named after them. But I shall leave this subject to the antiquarians
The Enchelians are mentioned here as the descendants from Illyrius son of C&H. (Encheleus) as the progenitors of the Enchelei.
Argonautica book V:
But when the Colchians learnt the death of their prince, verily they were eager to pursue Argo and the Minyans through all the Cronian sea. But Hera restrained them by terrible lightnings from the sky. And at last they loathed their own homes in the Cytaean land, quailing before Aeetes' fierce wrath; so they landed and made abiding homes there, scattered far and wide. Some set foot on those very islands where the heroes had stayed, and they still dwell there, bearing a name derived from Apsyrtus; and others built a fenced city by the dark deep Illyrian river, where is the tomb of Harmonia and Cadmus, dwelling among the Encheleans; and others live amid the mountains which are called the Thunderers, from the day when the thunders of Zeus, son of Cronos, prevented them from crossing over to the island opposite
So C&H had a shrine along the Illyrian river(which supposedly is the todays Drilon river).This next text affirms the existence of a C&H shrine.:
As to the departure of Cadmus and Harmonia to Illyria and their transformation into snakes in that country, where their tomb was shown in later ages, see Ap. Rhod., Argon. iv.516ff.; Dionysius, Perieg. 390ff., with the commentary of Eustathius, Comm. on Dionysius Perieg. v.391; Strab. 1.2.39, Strab. 7.7.8; Paus. 9.5.3; Athenaeus xi.5, p. 462 B
Now the really strange thing is that other texts do not confirm C&H at all as the progenitors of the Enchelians ,but their offspring in the times of the Epigoni(the sons of the seven against Thebes).:
The Epigoni
Ten years later, the young Laodamas had come to power in Thebes. Thersander bribed Eruphyle, this time with the wedding gown of Harmonia, to convince Alcmaeon to lead another expedition on Thebes. The group was known as the Epigoni, which in Greek, means the successors. These included sons of the seven men who had attacked the city. Amphillochus, the brother of Alcmaeon, joined the quest. Thersander, son of Polynices, joined in the hopes of regaining the throne of Thebes. Diomedes, the son of Tydeus, also joined. Aegialeus, son of Adrastus, joined also. Other members were Euryalus, son of Mecisteus, Promachus, son of Parthenopaeus, and Sthenelus, son of Capeneus.
When these men drew near the city, Tiresias advised that the Thebans leave, because they were sure to lose the conflict. They set off for Gilsas, in the land of the Encheleis. Along the way, Tiresias, who had lived for seven generations, died while drinking from the spring of Tilphusa.
When the Epigoni reached Thebes, they placed Thersander on the throne of a considerably weakened city. The only of them to die was Aegialeus, son of Adrastus. After his sons death, Adrastus died of sorrow, and Diomedes served as regent for his other son, Cyanippus, and led the Argive fighting force to Troy. Diomedes has his own legends concerning his participation at Troy, his voyage home, and subsequent colonization in Italy.
This is the end of the major mythological significance of Thebes. The city was listed only briefly in Hoomers catalog of ships, where Thersander was reported as bringing a small group to fight at Troy.
 
Now there is also the mentioning of a certain Laodamas great grandson of C&H.:
 
 Now these Phenicians who came with Cadmos, of
whom were the Gephyraians, brought in among the Hellenes many arts
when they settled in this land of B?otia, and especially letters,
which did not exist, as it appears to me, among the Hellenes before
this time; and at first they brought in those which are used by the
Phenician race generally, but afterwards, as time went on, they
changed with their speech the form of the letters also. During this
time the Ionians were the race of Hellenes who dwelt near them in most
of the places where they were; and these, having received letters by
instruction of the Phenicians, changed their form slightly and so made
use of them, and in doing so they declared them to be called
"phenicians," as was just, seeing that the Phenicians had introduced
them into Hellas. Also the Ionians from ancient time call paper
"skins," because formerly, paper being scarce, they used skins of goat
and sheep; nay, even in my own time many of the Barbarians write on
such skins. 59. I myself too once saw Cadmeian characters in the
temple of Ismenian Apollo at Thebes of the B?otians, engraved on
certain[49a] tripods, and in most respects resembling the Ionic
letters: one of these tripods has the inscription,

"Me Amphitryon offered from land Teleboian returning:"[50]

this inscription would be of an age contemporary with Laﯳ the son of
Labdacos, the son of Polydoros, the son of Cadmos. 60. Another tripod
says thus in hexameter rhythm:

"Me did Scaios offer to thee, far-darting Apollo,
Victor in contest of boxing, a gift most fair in thine honour:"

now Scaios would be the son of Hippoco?at least if it were really
he who offered it, and not another with the same name as the son of
Hippoco? being of an age contemporary with ?dipus the son of Laﯳ:
61, and the third tripod, also in hexameter rhythm, says:

"Me Laodamas offered to thee, fair-aiming Apollo,
He, of his wealth,[51] being king, as a gift most fair in thine honor:"

now it was in the reign of this very Laodamas the son of Eteocles that
the Cadmeians were driven out by the Argives and turned to go to the
Enchelians; and the Gephyraians being then left behind were afterwards
forced by the B?otians to retire to Athens. Moreover they have temples
established in Athens, in which the other Athenians have no part, and
besides others which are different from the rest, there is especially
a temple of Demeter Achaia and a celebration of her mysteries.
Herodotus book V.
 
So here the son of Eteocles Laodamas comes in the story as royal blood fleeing to the Enchelians/ Illyrians right after the Epigoni campaign.
 
Now coming back to the afore mentioned oracle mentioning the sacking of Delphi by the Enchelians and Illyrians, in supposedly the 40th Olympiad.(617 B.C.)
 
 
 When he so expressed his judgment, none opposed him, and thus his opinion prevailed; for he and not Artabazos had the command of the army given him by the king. He summoned therefore the commanders of the divisions and the generals of those Hellenes who were with him, and asked whether they knew of any oracle regarding the Persians, which said that they should be destroyed in Hellas; and when those summoned to council were silent, some not knowing the oracles and others knowing them but not esteeming it safe to speak, Mardonios himself said: "Since then ye either know nothing or do not venture to speak, I will tell you, since I know very well. There is an oracle saying that the Persians are destined when they come to Hellas to plunder the temple at Delphi, and having plundered it to perish every one of them. We therefore, just because we know this, will not go to that temple nor will we attempt to plunder it; and for this cause we shall not perish. So many of you therefore as chance to wish well to the Persians, have joy so far as regards this matter, and be assured that we shall overcome the Hellenes." Having spoken to them thus, he next commanded to prepare everything and to set all in order, since at dawn of the next day a battle would be fought.


43. Now this oracle, which Mardonios said referred to the Persians, I know for my part was composed with reference with the Illyrians and the army of the Enchelians, and not with reference to the Persians at all. However, the oracle which was composed by Bakis with referance to this battle.
 
Now this is what i found out about the oracle's  joined Enchelean /Illyrian attack on Delphi..
 
The reasons that brought Cadmus and Harmonia to the eastern Adriatic coast and their fate there are found in a number of legends, the best known preserved in Euripides' tragedy Bacchae (c. 408 B.C.), in Ovid's narrative poem Metamorphoses (8 A.D.) and in Bibliotheca, a book on mythology from the 1st century A.D., erroneously attributed to Apollodorus. As the story goes, Cadmus ruled Thebes for a long time, but in his old age he was obliged to relinquish the Theban throne to his grandson Pentheus and together with Harmonia settle among the Enchelei, "people of the eels". He travelled there in an ox cart and in his new homeland he founded the city of Butou, present-day Budva. There had been a prophecy that the Enchelei would defeat their neighbours, the Illyrians, if they chose a foreigner as their leader. They did so, and Cadmus triumphed over the Illyrians and took control of their lands. In the new kingdom Harmonia gave birth to a son Illyricus. Shortly thereafter Cadmus led the united Enchelei and Illyrians in an expedition against Greece, and the mighty barbarian army won one victory after another - until they tried to plunder Apollo's shrine at Delphi. Then the Enchelei and Illyrian army suffered defeat, though Cadmus and Harmonia were by divine will spared. When they returned to the Adriatic coast, Cadmus realized that his misfortune was punishment for killing Ares dragon as a young man, and he therefore begged the gods to turn him into a serpent. Harmonia wanted to remain with her unfortunate husband and share his fate; embraced, in the form of blue-spotted black snakes they vanished in a sweet-smelling grove nearby, and since then as favourites of the gods they have enjoyed eternal bliss among the roses and golden pomegranates, constantly refreshed by scented sea breezes. Groves like this, which later became shrines honouring Cadmus and Harmonia, are found all around Budva.The contacts that Cadmus established between Thebes and the Adriatic were not interrupted after his death. In the seventh generation after Cadmus when Thebes was destroyed by the army of Argos, Cadmus' defeated descendents, the Cadmei, set out through the southern Balkan mountains towards the Adriatic to seek help from the Enchelei, their path known as Cadmus' road (via Cadmeia), linking the Aegean Sea with the east coast of the Adriatic.To what extent the myth about Cadmus among the Enchelei reflects real ; events can be judged partly on the basis of early geographical and historical writings, and partly on the basis of archaeological research. It is quite certain that : the Enchelei are not merely a mythical nation; that they were early inhabitants of I Budva and its surroundings can be concluded on the basis of the most reliable j geographical writings of antiquity, primarily pseudo-Peryplus (c. 340 B.C.).It is also true that living in their vicinity were the Illyrians, with whom they later f- mixed and created a united Illyrian kingdom. Therefore in some old geographical and historical writings the Enchelei are identified with the Illyrians, and Budva is cited as an Illyrian city. In that respect, and in connection with the founding of Budva and the origin of its name, an interesting reference is found in the work of Stephanus Byzantinus, a 6th-century Greek grammarian, and in Etymologicum magnum by an anonymous author and of unknown date. Stephanus Byzantinus writes: "Butoa, a city in Illyria... thus called because Cadmus rode in a cart drawn by oxen and swiftly covered the distance to Illyria. Others say that Cadmus called the city after Egyptian Buti, corrupted to Butoa."Further information, also drawing on the mention of Budva in Sophocles tragedy Onomaklo, is found in Etymologicum magnum: "Butoa: a city in Illyria. It is said that Cadmus in an ox cart travelled swiftly fromThebes to the Illyrians and founded a city which he called, after the oxen andbecause he left swiftly, Butoa. Or that after the herb oregano (butes) it was called Butoa and Buthoa... or that Cadmus was a supporter of theIllyrians when he settled among them..."
 
So there was a certain attack or attempt to sack  Delphi undertaken by a joined attack by the Encheleans and Illyrians...we have seen there are several sources pointing out to the Oracle and the army of the Enchelians and Illyrians ..now this attack is nowhere mentioned in any sources is it pure myth or reality ???
 
Who can help me out on this particulair episode in the Northwestern Greek area around approximately 617 B.C.?
 
All the best...
 
 
 
 

 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 16:53
I think you are making a mistake,by claiming that the Enchelians were at war with the Illyrians ,you can not deny them automatically their being Illyrians themselves.Like the ancient Greeks, the Illyrians were a people with many tribes,but Illyria was the kingdom that brought this tribes together under one rule.One thing that did not happen in ancient Greece.
The Enchelians were at war with Illyria ,but they might very well have been Illyrians.The tribes of ancient Greece have always been in constant war with each other,does that mean they were all of them different groups of people??I don't thing so,i think they were Greeks as well as they were Athenians, or Spartans etc,Who  fought  for Athens ,Sparta,etc  and not for  Greece.Were there to be a unified Greek kingdom  there  would have been  Sparta or any other  not yet conquered  fighting the Greek kingdom,with Illyrian mercenaries if it was necessary to have enough manpower to fight.Does this sound logical to you?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 12:02
Again they started out as Hellenes,at least their royalty *the Cadmeians*
and later became Illyrinised.
 
But you seem to prefer to look at it as a civil war between  the Illyrian tribes...?
Now why would the myths say clearly they were at war with the Illyrians, and clearly separete them from the Illyrians.
 
Cadmus and Harmonia were Thebans, who fled to the  Enchelians to assist them at the war against the Illyrians.
 
Like the Epirotes the Enchelians were at constant war with Illyrians , only the Enchelians became later Illyrinised, same as some Epirote tribes that lived right on the border with the Illyrians, they received much influences from the Illyrians , but they also received influences from the Hellenes and Macedonians,that was the main issue with those border tribes back then.
 
But nowhere is said that the Enchelians started out as Illyrians...
What do you know of the origins from the Illyrians ? they started out as Vucedols and migrated from the northern Balkan areas southward pushing the Epirotes and Paiones and Pelasgians further down and heavily influencing the neighbour tribes through all the centuries..
 
But the same goes for the Dessaretes you Albanians claim them as Illyrian but in fact they were Epirotes, a Chaonian tribe that lived on the border with Illyria for many centuries but they did not lose their Greek culture until the 6th c.A.D. when the Dessaretes dissapeare dfrom the sources whilst heavily assimilitaed by Slavic tribes in the 7th/8th c.A.D.


Edited by Cadmus - 07-Oct-2007 at 12:03
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  Quote erton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 12:52
          legends from albania
 

THE STORY OF DORUNTINE

 

The only daughter of a large family of nine brothers [number nine + 1 in PIE] marries a king far away from home [similar to the eloping of Europa, daughter of Agenor and sister of Cadmus; Helen eloped with Paris]. All of her brothers were against her marriage but for Constantine, the youngest brother. He made a pledge [similar Cadmus, Cadmilus son of Agenor, king of Phoenicia, and brother of Europa, husband of Harmonia, and father of Illyrus] that he would bring the sister home even if he was buried deeply underground.

 

But a snake poisons the milk and all nine brothers die [myth of Gilgamesh]. Illyrians blame the snake for brining death on earth. In another version brothers die of war or plague [Apollo's plague and fire on Greeks].

 

Mother cursed the warrior in his grave for breaking the sacred oath [a man is blamed for the disappearance of a woman in matriarchy]. Constantine comes from the dead to break the curse upon him. His stone became his horse. Doruntine welcomes her brother but becomes suspicious of his muddy armor, his bad smell from the grave, his worn face [terrible aspect of death 'Inanna's descent to the underworld']. She complains that they travel only at night [the dead surrounded by night 'Odysseus descent to the underworld'] and that birds stop singing, the sun stops shining, flowers wither as they travel along them on the way home [Dumuzi who brings the demons from the underworld].

 

When Doruntine arrives home her brother returns to the grave. 'Who brought you here' - mother asks her daughter in disbelief. 'Constantine' was the answer of Doruntine. 'your nine brothers have nine years that rot in the graves' screams horrified mother. Both mother and daughter die of despair.

 

Who brought death on earth was the main theme of Illyrian myths that reached its peak in the story of Cadmus. A snake was blamed for killing the warriors in all myths. Unlike the Greeks who found the myth entertaining, Illyrians took the myth very seriously. They invented a religion 'bessa' promise; obligation, undertaking; oath, vow. Almost all unwritten Illyrian laws were based on 'bessa' - an austere code that was born out of a snake story.

 

In another version the Illyrian myth traces the origin of death from dragons and snakes in the story of the snake-groom.

 

SNAKE GROOM

 

A young woman fell in love with a beautiful snake. The relatives objected her quest to marry the snake but finally they yielded to her relentless demands. Nobody in the village knew the mystery of the snake groom who turned into a handsome man at night. The woman was prohibited to tell the secret of her husband to the world. However, villagers' ridicules forced the young woman despise herself and pity her condition. She finally threw the skin of the snake groom into the fire. Her husband looked in horror and said 'What did you do woman? You lost me forever' and then he disappeared. Nobody could understand why the young woman cried for a missing snake.

 

This latter Illyrian myth blames the woman for breaking the spell of immortality.

 

the time is the greatest enemy of the men
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 10:32
Originally posted by erton

Who brought death on earth was the main theme of Illyrian myths that reached its peak in the story of Cadmus. A snake was blamed for killing the warriors in all myths. Unlike the Greeks who found the myth entertaining, Illyrians took the myth very seriously. They invented a religion 'bessa' promise; obligation, undertaking; oath, vow. Almost all unwritten Illyrian laws were based on 'bessa' - an austere code that was born out of a snake story.



Unlike the Greeks who found the myth entertaining? Actually the myth was a part of their religion. It was no myth for them. Obviously you have many depictions of the story of Cadmus. I'm posting just one vase for an example.



Do you have an Illyrian record/finding that they were more serious about it?


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 10:42
Cadmus

Your hero with the same name hehe, was actually Phoenician with origins from Thebes. Something people tend to completely forget is that there were Cadmeian tribes in Greece (Greco-Phoenicians as Rawlingson calls them) and Thrace. The Gefyraioi (inhabitants of Gefyra) of Boetia were one of them. As Herodotus reports Cadmeians existed in Northern Greece. Therefore, before examining if a tribe was Thracian, Greek, Phrygian or Illyrian, we should not forget there were Cadmeians around as well. Cadmeians like some other people around the area were the very first to be Hellenized.

So, Cadmus might have moved specifically to the Encheleans because they were Cadmeians. It is just a theory, but definetely not something that should be ommited.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 12:25
HI Flipper!
 
That's indeed a very interesting theory, about the Enchelians already being Cadmeians.WinkLamp
 
If you look at the myth a Oracle told them to move to the Enchelians and help them with the war on Illyrians...take out the myth of the Oracle and you have people (possibly kinsmen) helping eachother, indeed maybe the two were related before the myth itself...
 
But it could be also that the Enchelians themselves were different from the Cadmeian tribes and had only a royal blood line from C&H offspring, and the Enchelians having maybe mixed blood that was Illyrian-IE maybe.
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  Quote erton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 13:20
Appian of Alexandria, a Greek historian of the 2nd century AD, was the only ancient historian to have written a history of Illyria. Although he explicitly stated that many mythological stories concerning the name of Illyria were still circulating in his time, he chose for his audience a genealogical story, which included most of the peoples who inhabited the Illyricum of the Antonine era. They all descended from the son of Polyphemus and Galatea, Illyrius. Unfortunately, of all the stories referred to by Appian, merely one more concerning the eponymous ancestor of the Illyrians has to my knowledge been preserved to date; this is the legend of Cadmus and Harmonia and their son Illyrius.

By way of introduction, some other myths and legends related to the lands of Illyricum will be briefly considered, those which have a broader significance and are not only of limited local interest. Interestingly, all of them refer to the regions along the Adriatic, which additionally confirms the extreme importance of maritime routes used by travellers, merchants, and explorers; even northern ports may have been at least to some extent known to the Greeks at a relatively early date, while the interior of Illyria had for a long time remained terra incognita. These include the legend about the Hyperboreans, a mythical blessed northern race, dwelling beyond the mountains from where the northern wind blew, with whom Apollo had stayed for a period before his ceremonial arrival in Delphi, and further the legend about the return journey of the Argonauts. The worship of the Greek hero Diomedes was related to both Adriatic coasts, while the legend of the Trojan Antenor, whose route led him along Dalmatia, was particularly important for the history of Venetia and the western Adriatic coast. A legend has been preserved about the mysterious Ionius of the Illyrian race, the eponym for the Ionian (ie. the Adriatic) Sea; he may have once ruled over Issa, but according to the earlier variant he was inadvertently killed by Heracles in Dyrrhachium. Hercules was connected with other places along the eastern Adriatic coast, and so was his son Hyllus.

The most important passages follow, referring to the legends of Illyrius, the son of Cadmus and Harmonia, and Illyrius, the son of Polyphemus and Galatea.

Mythological Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus (3.39.2) :

“Cadmus accompanied by Harmonia left Thebes and went to the Enchelei. They were at war with the Illyrians who had attacked them, but they had been advised by a god that they would defeat the Illyrians if they were led by Cadmus and Harmonia. They trusted in the prophecy and appointed them as leaders against the Illyrians, who were then defeated. Cadmus ruled over Illyria and had a son Illyrius. Afterwards, together with Harmonia, he was turned into a serpent and Zeus conveyed him to the Elysian Fields”.

Commentary to Virgil’s Aeneid, Scholia Vaticana (to verse 1.243; II p. 311 Lion):

“When Cadmus the son of Agenor, accompanied by his wife Harmonia, left Thebes, and bearing his unjust fate passed through the territory of Macedonia, he left a young son borne to him by Harmonia by the Illyrian River. A serpent twined around this son and, until he had grown, nursed him in the embrace of its body and filled him with the power to subdue this entire country. It named him Illyrius after itself.”

Appian, Illyr. 2.3–4:

“It is said that the country received its name from Polyphemus' son Illyrius; the Cyclops Polyphemus and Galatea had the sons Celtus, Illyrius and Galas; they left Sicily and ruled over the peoples who were named after them: the Celts, the Illyrians, and the Galatians. This mythological story pleases me the most, although many others are also told by many writers. (4) Illyrius had the sons Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus and the daughters Partho, Daortho, Dassaro and others, from whom arose the peoples of the Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei, Autariatae, Dardanians [and Maedi], Partheni, Dassaretii and Darsi. Autarieus himself had a son Pannonius or Paeon, who in turn had Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations also were descended who were named
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  Quote erton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 14:46
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  Quote erton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 15:21

Albanians are very related with snakes, even today we believe that is a snake that guard our house and we used to call him"the good snake of the house"

 
We cant kill it couse we think it isnt a good thing and we would be punished afterwards,but we let him pacefull around our house.
Other stories go on when a snake comes suddenly in front of you and you havent why to go away(our parents says us that in such case was a song dedicated to them,that the peoples sing to him).
Similiar stories are with the albanias that fight with snakes or dragons in the spot when they take water to drink,it is believed also that in each spot was a dragon that didnt allow the peoples to drink water and many times the peoples were forced to fight with them(we call this dragon also as kucedra with seven heads)
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 16:53
So that would make Illyrus a Phoenician and Greek semi-god?

Btw, the image is from the 18th century, not an ancient one...

Also, the "good snake of the house" is common in many places. AND you're not allowed to kill it.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 16:54
Originally posted by Cadmus

HI Flipper!
 
That's indeed a very interesting theory, about the Enchelians already being Cadmeians.WinkLamp
 
If you look at the myth a Oracle told them to move to the Enchelians and help them with the war on Illyrians...take out the myth of the Oracle and you have people (possibly kinsmen) helping eachother, indeed maybe the two were related before the myth itself...
 
But it could be also that the Enchelians themselves were different from the Cadmeian tribes and had only a royal blood line from C&H offspring, and the Enchelians having maybe mixed blood that was Illyrian-IE maybe.


Yeah, just a theory. I mentioned it cause people tend to forget the Cadmeians.

Your 3rd paragraph is the most probably though...


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 19:02

Again they started out as Hellenes,at least their royalty *the Cadmeians* and later became Illyrinised.
So, according to this theory, the Scordisci and the Triballi were "Celticized" respectively "Thracianized" Hellenes. LOL 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 20:06
According to the Encheleans yes, about the Scordisci and Triballians i don't know but the Dardanians were Hellenes and later became Illyrians yes..
 
But can you back up the origins of the Triballi and Scordisci??
 
The Triballi were Thracians and as you might know a lot of Thracians have Hellenic origins...
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 20:18
Correct me if I'm wrong but you consider Encheleans Hellenes just because one myth says they were descendents from Cadmos (well from Illyrius which one of the myths makes him a son of Cadmos, because in the other version he's son of Polyphemos). But you see, according to other mythical tradition which you have quoted, one of the other sons of Illyrios, Autarieos had two sons Scordiscos and Triballos. Therefore if one puts the two mythical genealogies together would have Scordiscii and Triballi as remote descendents from Cadmos, therefore using the same argument, they were Hellenes which later "Illyrianized" and later after that they became Celts respectively Thracians. But this is an interpretation which we hardly could agree on when we switch back to real history. My point is that there is no evidence Encheleans were initially Hellenes, and taking myths ad litteram we can reach to conclusions incompatible with the other historical evidences.
 
Also I do not know nor think a lot of Thracians have Hellenic origins. Maybe some Hellenes "barbarized" becoming thus Illyrians or Thracians but the general phenomenon was vice-versa, Illyrians and Thracians slowly Hellenized, as the Greek culture (and language) was much stronger. For sure we have Thracians writing in Greek alphabet but we don't have Greeks writing in Thracian alphabet (probably they didn't have one, anyway), we have much more testimonies of Thracians speaking Greek than of Greeks speaking Thracian. 


Edited by Chilbudios - 09-Oct-2007 at 20:19
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:41
I prefer the myth of  Cadmus and Harmonia and the Encheleans the most (as Hellenes), since it is backed up by Laodamas son of Eteocles who was a Cadmeian (also from Thebes), and who fled to the Encheleans after the Epigoni returned to Thebes and sacked it.
 
Here we have the myth of C&H as Hellenes and Laodamas and his men as Hellenes(read Cadmeians) moving off to the Encheleans , so it is safely to assume that the Encheleans at that particulair timeframe were Hellenes (Cadmeians)instead of Illyrians .
 
The myth of Polyphemos and his offspring seem not as plausible to me.
since it deals with Illyrians only, you just can't put those 2 myths together.
The Illyrian clans were definately not Hellenes nor Cadmeians and they cannot be compared with the C&H myth.
 
Maybe the myth of Hyllus son of Heracles is more appropriate for the Illyrians(but that would make them also with an Hellenic origin.


Edited by Cadmus - 09-Oct-2007 at 21:57
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 22:02
Taking one myth as true, considering the others false it is certainly not the way to take a look at the past, only at the ... myth Wink
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 07:59
The term Thracian has been confusing... The major language of the area initially is what we call Thracian. However, Thrace has at least 3 groups of people from an early stage. You have those who speak Thracian as we call it, you have Phrygians that later tend to abandon the area and you have the coast of south Thrace which is inhabited by Greeks.

So basically, people tend to use the term Thracian for the people that speak what we call the "Thracian language". Geographically though things change, no matter if people were Hellenized or Thraciazed.


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 09:11
Many linguists reject that Phyrigian and Thracian are related, though some proposed there could have been a connection between them. Also the Aegean coast of south Thrace was not only inhabited by Greeks, as there are even there are the written sources but also evidences of Thracian language, even in the north Aegean islands, like the short inscriptions from Samothrace (see A. F. Christidis' A History of Ancient Greek, p. 742, with references to C. Brixhe and A. Panayotou; actually the same book in the same chapter describes the how Greeks colonized the Aegean coast of Thrace)

Edited by Chilbudios - 10-Oct-2007 at 09:12
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 09:29
The Thracian language has Phrygian words cause the Phrygians were around. Different languages though. Recently a whole Phrygian temple of Cybele (mother earth) from the early bronse age was found in Bulgaria which reveals that the Phrygians did not only inhabit the south part of Thrace.

And yes it is true, the Greeks colonized Thraces coast at an early stage. Well, Thrace was an ultimate crossroad, so the area has interresting things to present now as well as the future.


Edited by Flipper - 10-Oct-2007 at 09:30


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