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Meaning of city names

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Meaning of city names
    Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 09:55
Warszawa (Warsaw) - belonging to some Warsz (spell. Varsh).
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 12:29
Originally posted by Alparslan


I wonder about the oldest documents on Istanbul in Persian. How were they calling the city?



The turks themselves officially called istanbul "qustantaniyyeh" - constantine's city. Don't know anything about the persians
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 12:31

I wonder about the oldest documents on Istanbul in Persian. How were they calling the city?

I don't know about old Persian sources but in the early Islamic period it was known as Astanih (Istana=Land/City) and then as Islambul (Islam Bridge).

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/arabic/vol5/dairih/1/dair1.htm

6, Astanih [Istanbul]:

Astanih (vol 1, p 177), is the same Islambul, capital of Osmani (Ottoman), in the old times it was known as Astanih.

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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 16:27

No..... This is ridiculous. Do you think that Turks get the information about Istanbul while theye were hanging around.

I got that information from a Turk in another forum.

 

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 16:56

'Paris' probably has to do with one of characters from Greek mythology also called 'Paris'

 

 Not at all Paris is named after the celtic tribe known as the Parisii

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 17:12
Originally posted by Alparslan


I was thinking that the Greek version was right. But I think Cyrus explanation is more reasonable. There are historical and geographical explanations to Persian version. Just look at the map.


What historical explanations? I haven't seen any the like. Just because a name could mean something in another language is not really an indication someone renamed it like that. On the other hand, the idea 'Istanbul' comes from the older Greek name has many arguments and historical records supporting it.
Just look at the words: Konstantinopolis/Stanpolis-Istanbul.
Name changes like that has happened all the time, Helsingfors->Helsinki, Massilia->Marseilles. It's nothing new.

However, Cyrus's second post is actually supporting the Greek origin though - look at the bolded part:

Why the name change?

Istanbul is widely recognized as the name of Turkey's most well known city, but it was not always this way, and even today some confusion over its proper name still exists. The confusion is rooted in the various names the city assumed under the Ottomans in the centuries after their conquest of the city in 1453. Although the Ottomans did not purposely change the city's name, they opted to make "Constantinople" into a more Turkish style name "Konstantiniye" (which loosely translates as "of Constantine"), however variations on Konstantiniye soon cropped up.

"Stanbulin," (Greek for "to the city") once commonly found on road signs directing travelers to the capital, was punned by devout Turks into Islambol, where "Islam abounds." The names Islambol and Konstantiniye were used interchangeably in Ottoman documents up until the empire's demise in 1923. Westerners continued to refer to the city as Constantinople well into the 20th century. In the 19th century, however, the city's large foreign expatriate community took to calling the old city Stamboul. Western accounts of the old city during this period make regular references to the name.


Fig. 1. An envelope (circa 1921) sent from a Sephardi named Vitali Isaac Salti of Constantinople. This card demonstrates the usage of both Stamboul, and Constantinople. A common practice prior to the formation of the modern Republic of Turkey.

Many times the Germans refer to Istanbul as 'Konstantinopel', the French and the British as 'Constantinople' and the Italians as 'Constantinopoli'. Although the official name of the city has, ever since the establishment of the Republic, been 'Istanbul' and great sensitivity shown on this subject, Europe resists the adoption of the name 'Istanbul'.

According to a popular story that has existed for many years, the Byzantines did not refer to the city by its actual name, but, because of it size, simply as 'Polis' (the City), and when they wanted to say 'to the City', they said 'eist enpolin' (is-tin-polin), which was the (possible) origin of the name 'Istanbul'. Recent research has shown that the name 'Istanbul' was used if not during the Byzantine period, at least during the 11th century and that the Turks knew the city by this name. Istanbul has had other names at various times but none of them was used widely or for any great length of time. During the Turkish period the names 'Dersaadet' and 'Deraliye' were used. Some official correspondence and coins had the transcription of 'Konstantinoupolis'or 'Konstantiniye', although the use of the name 'Konstantiniye' was prohibited at one time during the Ottoman period by Sultan Mustafa III, its use continued, to be abandoned during the republican period.



Fig. 2. Map demonstrating the physical division of Istanbul by the Bosporus River.
The name controversy was assumed to be settled when Atatrk officially renamed the city Istanbul in the 1920s. It took Westerners a few decades to accept the name, as Constantinople continued to appear on maps well into the 1960s, when it began to appear in parentheses next to Istanbul. The Greeks still do not use the Turkish name, and Konstantinopolis continues to be used on maps and road signs in Greece today.

From: http://www.sephardicstudies.org/istanbul.html

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 08:32

However, Cyrus's second post is actually supporting the Greek origin though

Do you think Astana (Capital of Kazakstan) is also a Greek word?

Give me a reason why Istanbul was widely called Astana?

The role of the Istanbul Centre in working towards hitting the Khilafah State

it was the nationalist policy of the unionists within the state that evoked the nationalist idea in the Ottoman elements. Hence, the Albanians in Astana founded their own Committee, soon to be followed by the Circassians and the Kurds.

The Arabs for their part established the Committee of "Arab-Ottoman Brotherhood" in Astana and they opened the Committees club under the same name.

It is in the interest of the Astana government to coerce the Syrians to leave their homelands. Arab lands, especially Iraq and Yemen, must be turned into Turkish colonies, in order to spread the Turkish language which must be the language of the Deen.

And you have to trust the fact that the Turkish Committee, which you have witnessed in Astana and in the other parts inhabited by Turkish elements, does not clash in any way with the Arab aspirations.

 

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 08:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Do you think Astana (Capital of Kazakstan) is also a Greek word?



Give me a reason why Istanbul was widely called Astana?


I meant "Islambul".
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 10:29
My hometow is called "little hammer"
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse
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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 10:50
my home town is called "the home of Trond"
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 11:26
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Do you think Astana (Capital of Kazakstan) is also a Greek word?



Give me a reason why Istanbul was widely called Astana?



I meant "Islambul".

It is obvious that Islambul is just a faked version of Istanbul.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 11:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


It is obvious that Islambul is just a faked version of Istanbul.


Yes exactly. Read the article I posted - it was a "pun version" of the Greek Stanbulin.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 13:32

Frankfurt - the city was founded at a ford of very shallow water where Frankish tribes used to cross the otherwise impassable Main River. Thus, the name of Frankfurt means "ford of the Franks"

Cologne - from Latin "colonia" which means "colony"



Edited by Master of Disaster
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 13:45
Styrbiorn, that story can be true but about "Yucatan" becuase Spaniard discoverers didn't know the Aztec language and there was not anyone who could translate it for them. Neither Istanbul was an undiscovered city nor Ottomans were some travelers who could just read Greek and not understand the meaning.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 14:01
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Styrbiorn, that story can be true but about "Yucatan" becuase Spaniard discoverers didn't know the Aztec language and there was not anyone who could translate it for them. Neither Istanbul was an undiscovered city nor Ottomans were some travelers who could just read Greek and not understand the meaning.

What are you trying to say? That the Turks wouldn't adapt the Greek name because some of them could understand Greek? Sorry, but that's a very weird conclusion - it happens all the time, Hangudd became Gangut (and some Russians sure knew Swedish), Massilia Marseilles etc. People generally don't care sh*t about the meaning of a placename, they just accepts it as it is. All written records about the names points in the direction of Istanbul coming from Stanpol. To try to find another origin is just trying to stick a non-existing meaning to it, of nationalistic or other purposes. It would be like trying to find a Finnish meaining of "Helsinki", ignoring the fact it comes from "Helsingfors". Did you even read the article I posted?

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 14:29

Yes I read it and I think that is an insult to the Turks, it says Istanbul is a Greek name but the Greeks do not use this Turkish name but Turks love to use it to show their ignorance of reading a Greek road sign.

Alparslan is himself a Turk, does it matter what Turks themselves say about it?

And did you even read my post about Astana?

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 15:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Yes I read it and I think that is an insult to the Turks, it saysIstanbul is a Greek name but the Greeks do not use this Turkish name but Turks love to use it to show their ignorance of reading a Greek road sign.


Alparslan is himself a Turk, does it matter what Turks themselves say about it?


And did you even read my post about Astana?


How in earth's name could that be insulting? Is it insulting to Englishmen that they call Gteborg Gothenburg, just because 'Gteborg' is not as fitting to an English tongue? Is it insulting that they call Kbenhavn 'Copenhagen'? You know how the name Canada appeared? It was people asking what the natives called the land. They answered 'Canada', believing these foreigners asked about their village. Is that insulting to the Canadians? As everybody everywhere, the Turks got the name of the town from its and its surrounding's inhabitants. What's so strange about that? Everybody in the neighbourhood called it Stanbul or the like, so the newcomers adapted it, slightly altered to fit their tongues. This whole business about trying to find meanings when there is none is weird IMHO, sounds like nationalistic PC-talk to me.   And who would rename the greatest city around "Land Bridge" anyway (now that would be insulting to them )?

Yes, I read your post, but I completely fail to see what the capital of Kazakhstan has to do with this. And it is slightly ironic that you use a site devoted to recreate the Khalifa and make an Islamic state out of everything, considering the opinions you usually present about such a state.

And yes, of course it matters what Turks thinks. What kind of question is that? Yet, if an American told me "Manhattan" meant "a man's pale hat" in Dutch and not "Hilly Island" as pronounced by the natives who met the first Dutch explores, I wouldn't believe him.

some random links:
Istanbul on Wiki - written by a(well, several) Turk. Especially check the discussion page (found in a tab), it got some interesting things on the etymology.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/I/Is/Istanbul. htm - check the etymology part

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Istanbul

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 18:36
I use to live in Walla Walla, Washington in the southeast corner of the state, next to Oregon and Idaho.
The name is Salish Indian and means either place or land of many water becasue of all the natural springs in the area.






Walla Walla wine is great!!!
http://www.northwest-wine.com/walla-walla-wine.html

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  Quote LeopoldPhilippe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2015 at 20:23
Vienna is the capital of Austria.       
The English name Vienna is borrowed from the Italian name Vienna.    
Vienna is thought to be derived from the Celtic word "windo-", meaning bright or fair.
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  Quote LeopoldPhilippe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2015 at 20:25
Budapest is the capital of Hungary.      
According to chronicles from the Middle Ages, the name Buda comes from the name of its founder Bleda (Buda), the brother of the ruler Attila.    
According to one theory, Pest originates from the Slavic word for cave, which is peshchera, or from the word for oven, which is pech, in reference to a cave where fires burned or to a local limekiln.
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