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Topic ClosedVlad the Impaler

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Poll Question: Vlad Tsepec "The Impaler" of Romania should be....
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AndronicusRex View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vlad the Impaler
    Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 11:09
In Romania, Vlad the Impaler is seen by many as a national hero who batted Turkish agression and even thwarted an invasion by Mehmet the Conqueror after the fall of Constantinople.  However, as his name suggests, he was prone to impaling people, often for minor crimes, a tactic that supposedly led to an eventual absence of crime in medieval Romania (Vlad was actually prince of Wallachia, part of modern-day Romania), and also was used as a fear-inspiring tactic against the Ottomans.  My question is, how do you all view this intriguing figure who served as the basis for Bram Stoker's infamous vampire count.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 11:28
Rather bloodthirsty. Defending his country yes, but he seemed to enjoy impaliing people a bit too much.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 15:57
His father was assassinated and his brother buried alive; some sources even say that the young Vlad may have been forced to watch the burial. This leads most to come to the conclusion that his early acts of cruelty may have been motivated by the need to avenge his family. And thanks to the boyars, we do know that he felt the need to solidify his power, especially since the boyars tended to "make" or "break" Wallachian princes.

Edited by Penelope - 30-Sep-2007 at 16:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 18:47
For sure he was a national hero, and a very gifted commander who was able to defeat the enemy that was much stonger. As about his "cruelties," it's really hard to judge because most of the sources about his "blood thurst" come from German chronicles, which were very biased agaist him.
 
Vlad Tsepesh (Impaler) had very difficult relations with the German colonists in Transilvania, who disliked him.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 20:19
Vlad ruled in the time when the Bzyantine Empire vanished and was replaced by the Ottoman Empire. In such conditions, the treat was seeming to need drastic measures.

Between 1442 and 1448 Vlad and his brother Radu the Beautiful have been prisoners at Turks, from political reasons (his brother will remain prisoner until 1462).

He conquered the throne from his precedesor in 1456 by attacking him with a Turkish group of army (Vladislav II was the assasin of his father). He was 17 years old. In 1459 he arested all the boyars (and their families) responsible for the assasination of his father and brother. The older boyars have been empaled and the younger have been forced to walk 100 km by foot and to built the Poenari fortress.

He was preoccupied that all the inhabitants of Wallachia to work and be useful for community.


In 1462 he lanced a campaign against the Turks from Bulgaria, killing 38.000. Mehmed II was infuried because his two messengers have been humiliated and attacked Wallachia with an army three times larger than Vlad's. When the sultan approached the capital, Trgoviste, he was terrified by the sight of 20.000 Turkish skulls on pales. This had the pursued psychological effect, the sultan recognising himself defeated and turning back to Istanbul.

An image less known of him:





Edited by Menumorut - 30-Sep-2007 at 20:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 23:32
Originally posted by Menumorut

Vlad ruled in the time when the Bzyantine Empire vanished and was replaced by the Ottoman Empire. In such conditions, the treat was seeming to need drastic measures.

Between 1442 and 1448 Vlad and his brother Radu the Beautiful have been prisoners at Turks, from political reasons (his brother will remain prisoner until 1462).

He conquered the throne from his precedesor in 1456 by attacking him with a Turkish group of army (Vladislav II was the assasin of his father). He was 17 years old. In 1459 he arested all the boyars (and their families) responsible for the assasination of his father and brother. The older boyars have been empaled and the younger have been forced to walk 100 km by foot and to built the Poenari fortress.

He was preoccupied that all the inhabitants of Wallachia to work and be useful for community.


In 1462 he lanced a campaign against the Turks from Bulgaria, killing 38.000. Mehmed II was infuried because his two messengers have been humiliated and attacked Wallachia with an army three times larger than Vlad's. When the sultan approached the capital, Trgoviste, he was terrified by the sight of 20.000 Turkish skulls on pales. This had the pursued psychological effect, the sultan recognising himself defeated and turning back to Istanbul.

An image less known of him:



Come on. Vlad was defeated and he was departed from his throne. After that he took refuge to Mathias Corvinus. Mathias Corvinus arrested him and he was a prisoner for years. After the prison he try for the throne but he was killed and his head was exhibitid to the citizens of the ottoman empire.
               And how can you think that an ottoman sultan can be afraid of some impaled corpses. I am sure that before this event mehmed the conquerer had seen a lot of impaled men.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 01:51
Actually Vlad was not defeated in battle in that campaign. The campaign Mehmed II pursued through Wallachia in the summer of 1462 was of little success as most of the land was scorched ahead of him. The only significant battle of the campaign was the so-called Night Attack from June 17, 1462 which turned to be a Wallachian victory. After this defeat Mehmed II advanced to the capital which he found deserted and nearby the sources say he found 20,000 impaled Muslims and among them the ex-bey of Nicopolis, Hamza Pasha. The next thing the Ottoman army returned. Probably not because of what they saw, but mostly because of famine and disease and the summed casualties. The direct achievements of the campaign were some burnt cities and probably enslaved inhabitants along their way.
Vlad lost his throne at the end of that summer against his brother, Radu cel Frumos (the Fair/Handsome) having Ottoman support and probably appointed by Mehmed II. Vlad was arrested by the Hungarian king only in November 1462.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 07:14
The Night attack


More ilustrations with Vlad:


http://www.historyarts.ro/c_vlad_tepes.htm



He too was preoccupied for restoring monasteries, among them being Snagov, and he is the founder of Comana monastery. Even they have been much rebuilt in 16th century, their character was traced in Vlad's time of rule. Some believe that he is buried at Snagov but most believable is Comana (because he was killed on the road between Bucharest and Giurgiu).


Snagov monastery



Comana monastery



In Vlad's time, Bucharest was firstly mentioned in a document.






Edited by Menumorut - 01-Oct-2007 at 08:12

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 07:35
Chilbudios exactly. Also, i would just like to add that the Ottomans, as well as the sultan, were probably extremely frightened and or sickened by his "inhuman cruelty", as evidenced by a report of an invading Turkish army turning back in fright after seeing thousands of rotting corpses impaled on the banks of the Danube. The fact that his body was decapitated by the Turks and his head sent to Constantinople where the sultan had it displayed on a stake as proof that the "horrible Impaler" was finally dead, only proves that they indeed feared him. Whatever the case may be, he is said to have marched against an incredibly huge Turkish army, at the head of a small force of 4000 men. The smaller army was obviously defeated, but this act alone may have won him the hearts of many.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 08:10
I think he was brutal of course, but really no more than the accepted of the time frame. The turks butchtered his people before his rise to power. Many in those days did the same, if not worse really.  I however think he receives a lotve attention mainly cause of the Dracula and pop culture comparison and references..which has great Public Relation value for Rumania.  Meaning tourism and money cause the whole Hollywood and sub-culture devoted to "Vampires".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 11:12
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

And how can you think that an ottoman sultan can be afraid of some impaled corpses. I am sure that before this event mehmed the conquerer had seen a lot of impaled men.
 
Ah, yes, I've always found that story somewhat dubious. I can see no reason why a man like Mehmet II, who was no stranger to excessive cruelty himself, should shy away from an array of impaled bodies - it was a Turkish specialty after all.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 12:46
Originally posted by Reginmund

should shy away from an array of impaled bodies - it was a Turkish specialty after all.
 
 
 
 
Please don't reveal this secret, Turkish forumers don't know it Wink
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 12:59
Yeah, impalement was the official method, but Ottoman authorities did not execute people for minor offences unlike Vlad Tepes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 13:35
Originally posted by Tyranos

I think he was brutal of course, but really no more than the accepted of the time frame. The turks butchtered his people before his rise to power. Many in those days did the same, if not worse really.  I however think he receives a lotve attention mainly cause of the Dracula and pop culture comparison and references..which has great Public Relation value for Rumania.  Meaning tourism and money cause the whole Hollywood and sub-culture devoted to "Vampires".
 
I totally agree. Tourism is a very lucritive enterprise in Rumania becuase of the phenomenon that hollywood has created. However, we all know that hollywood benefits far more from the phenomenon than Rumania.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 15:15
Yeah, impalement was the official method, but Ottoman authorities did not execute people for minor offences unlike Vlad Tepes.
Actually impalement was more of warning than an "official method", a method to freighten a certain group of people. At the siege of Constantinople from 1453 the Ottomans used impalement to weaken the morale of the defenders. A year before the siege, in an answer to Constantine XI, Mehmed said that he will impale any ambassador who'd dare to question his authority (the particular case was the Byzantine reaction to building of Rumelihisarı fortress, to control Bosphorus). Mehmed II also impaled or threaten to impale his officers. For instance, during the siege of 1453, in April, after a defeat of the Ottoman navy he ordered the admiral to be impaled and only later he changed his mind and ordered to have him whipped.
Another example: in the 16th century Ottoman Cairo, in a single day the local authorities impaled two dozens thieves and coin counterfeiters.
 
I do not see sensible differences between these examples and Vlad's exeecutions of his own officials (boyars), petty thieves or Muslim prisoners.


Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Oct-2007 at 15:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 18:51
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Reginmund

should shy away from an array of impaled bodies - it was a Turkish specialty after all.
 
 
 
 
Please don't reveal this secret, Turkish forumers don't know it Wink
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I am not surprised with this reply by you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 18:57
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

And how can you think that an ottoman sultan can be afraid of some impaled corpses. I am sure that before this event mehmed the conquerer had seen a lot of impaled men.
 
Ah, yes, I've always found that story somewhat dubious. I can see no reason why a man like Mehmet II, who was no stranger to excessive cruelty himself, should shy away from an array of impaled bodies - it was a Turkish specialty after all.
 
 
Again prejudice again bias. I am saying that at the medieval times I dont think that a king will be afraid of dead men even by the impale. This isnt for the turkish sultan.
              For the campaign , Vlad didnt face the ottoman army( because his chance was %0). But instead of this, he harrased the communication lines and made a night attack with some sucsess. But in conclusion he was out of Wallachia for years and his head was in turkish hands.
              But acknowledging him as a national hero for Romania isnt an error
              
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 19:21
But in conclusion he was out of Wallachia for years and his head was in turkish hands.
His long imprisonment was because of alleged treachery on his Hungarian ally (intention to ask Ottoman help to regain his throne) and in 1476 he was killed in his struggle over the Wallachian throne with Basarab Laiotă, in a general climate of conflict between Moldavia (under Stephen III), Hungary and the Ottoman Empire in the 1470s. Vlad's long imprisonment and death seem thus rather unrelated directly to the unsuccesful Ottoman campaign from 1462.

Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Oct-2007 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 19:44
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Again prejudice again bias.I am saying that at the medieval times I dont think that a king will be afraid of dead men even by the impale. This isnt for the turkish sultan.


Mehmed II was a cruel bastard who impaled and executed people right and left, and so was Vlad. It's not like I'm prejudiced towards the Ottoman Empire/Romania or the modern Turkish/Romanian people by acknowledging the simple fact that certain individuals were by no means politically correct by modern standards. I'd say they were a bit over the top even by contemporary standards.

Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

For the campaign , Vlad didnt face the ottoman army( because his chance was %0). But instead of this, he harrased the communication lines and made a night attack with some sucsess. But in conclusion he was out of Wallachia for years and his head was in turkish hands.


His chances weren't 0%. Wars had been won against poorer odds before. It was of course unlikely that a Wallachian voivode could stand against the Ottomans in the long run, considering the disparity in military might.

Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

But acknowledging him as a national hero for Romania isnt an error


I don't know. I wouldn't want him as a hero for my nation, nor would I want Mehmed II.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 19:59
Mehmed II was a cruel bastard who impaled and executed people right and left, and so was Vlad.


Vlad never made something for his ambitions.

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