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The bad side of Christianity
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The bad side of Christianity
    Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 13:26
Originally posted by pekau

 
It's people that ruins the religions, not the religion itself.Wink
 
Interesting. Might I ask if religion exists without people? What is it, some kind of immaterial entity stuffed into human mind?
I think of religion of being just another tool used by people to control other people.
The Church = CNN of the Medieval Era.
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Originally posted by Cezar

Originally posted by pekau

 
It's people that ruins the religions, not the religion itself.Wink
 
Interesting. Might I ask if religion exists without people? What is it, some kind of immaterial entity stuffed into human mind?
I think of religion of being just another tool used by people to control other people.
The Church = CNN of the Medieval Era.
 
True to some extent. It's true because religions are often abused as a tool to fulfill self-interests of few. There are many cases where some false prophets claim that end is near, and had all his/her followers to commit mass sucide. An interesting catch is this; all their wealth should be transferred to the prophet's account before they died, and the prophet mysteriously disappeared without a trace... along with the money.
 
Definitely evil.
 
If religion exists without people? Interesting... I don't believe so. The whole point of religion is to provide a path and guide for people. I don't believe that God would send Jesus Christ to earthly world if there were no human beings...  I don't see where you are getting with this..Confused
     
   
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 20:34
hugoestr, what happened to your avatar? I can't remember that well, but I swear I saw that person in the kid's section in Chapters....LOL
     
   
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 20:31
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by eaglecap

Originally posted by es_bih

The thing is that Christianity for most its history has been centralized, and the hiearchy too did condone such acts against non-Christians as something necessary, and something noble. In earlier time periods when our present moral values were still not fully developed the Christian Church saw fit such acts of violence as a necessity, not to indulge in over simplification of course, because there were probably more serious Christians who pursued the way of Christ as well (omitting the uneducated lower Church hiearchy, and the ones who used the ecclesitical offices as political springboards). But, nevertheless there were genuine Christians who truely believed in such actions as well.

"John VIII to the bishops in the realm of Louis II [the Stammerer].

You have modestly expressed a desire to know whether those who have recently died in war, fighting in defence of the church of God and for the preservation of the Christian religion and of the state, or those who may in 'he future fall in the same cause, may obtain indulgence for their sins. We confidently reply that those who, out of love to the Christian religion, shall die in battle fighting bravely against pagans or unbelievers, shall receive eternal life. For the Lord has said through his prophet: "In whatever hour a sinner shall be converted, I will remember his sins no longer." By the intercession of St. Peter, who has the power of binding and loosing in heaven and on the earth, we absolve, as far as is permissible, all such and commend them by our prayers to the Lord"



Gregory VI a genearation before the beginning of the first Crusade began calling for a mission to the Eastern Empire, and the Holy Land in the name of Christ. We have another example in the person of Urban II who preached the first venture to the Holy Land: "


On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! "


Nevertheless, we cannot just pick and choose either to form a statement that coincides with a preconcieved opinion that is small minded, and hateful. Robert Spencer uses that in his attacks on Islam by picking and choosing lines, and events without the larger context to prove a preconcieved judgment on Islam. Therefore, it is not right to blatantly attack Christianity either, and there were for example outspoken critics of the crusade. Here we have an example of one that criticizes the corruptions going on, but not necessarily the Crusade itself. "God allowed the Western church, on account of its sins, to be cast down. There arose, indeed, certain pseudo prophets, sons of Belial, and witnesses of anti-Christ, who seduced the Christians with empty words. They constrained all sorts of men, by vain preaching, to set out against the Saracens in order to liberate Jerusalem. The preaching of these men was so enormously influential that the inhabitants of nearly every region, by common vows, offered themselves freely for common destruction. Not only the ordinary people, but kings, dukes, marquises, and other powerful men of this world as well, believed that they thus showed their allegiance to God. The bishops, archbishops, abbots, and other ministers and prelates of the church joined in this error, throwing themselves headlong into it to the great peril of bodies and souls.... The intentions of the various men were different. Some, indeed, lusted after novelties and went in order to learn about new lands. Others there were who were driven by poverty, who were in hard straits at home; these men went to fight, not only against the enemies of Christ's cross, but even against the friends of the Christian name, wherever opportunity appeared, in order to relieve their poverty. There were others who were oppressed by debts to other men or who sought to escape the service due to their lords, or who were even awaiting the punishment merited by their shameful deeds. Such men simulated a zeal for God and hastened chiefly in order to escape from such troubles and anxieties. A few could, with difficulty, be found who had not bowed their knees to Baal, who were directed by a holy and wholesome purpose, and who were kindled by love of the divine majesty to fight earnestly and even to shed their blood for the holy of holies. "


Furthermore, another source that provides good information on Christian anti-violence movements, and Christian violence is the book Soldier Saints, and Holy Wariors, by Damon. Furthermore, in some of the pages we get contemporary sources discussing for example scepticism on conversions that may not have been geniune as in some Anglo-Saxon kings who pursued unChristian policies after conversion.








Sources:






Soldiers Saints and Holy Warriors, John Edward Damon.

One could say these writing were created by men and not God and once again they were not following the example of Christ. So, what is the difference between a Christian and a follower of Christ? The Roman Catholic Church has added a lot to the Bible with their traditions and hiearchy, often in contradiction to the Bible.


You didn't have the same stance when you posted Spencer's garbage. Then men never had ulterior motives when promoting violence. I never assumed anything, I do not think that Christianity is inherently violent, it is peaceful if followed the right way true, as is Islam, and the post just shows you that there were credible theologians that did support violence in the name of Christ. Yes actually it is easy to say that they were not following the true words of the New Testament, however, they were still believing in their cause for Christ. Misguided for sure, but still there.





This post is for the bad side of Christianity and not Islam but you have a right to your opinion about Spencer. Current events support much of what he says but I agree there is also darkness from the west. I honor your opinion though because this is still a free country or until the globalist take it away- oops that is another thread.

Just to add- I agree with what you say and yes they did believe this, in ignorance. The evil they did was for the Church and God's glory, you are correct. The Roman Catholic Church has probably done more wrong, in its past, than any so-called branch of Christianity. They have added many things to the Bible and many traditions. I am not attacking the Catholic faith either because today the Catholic Church does many wonderful things.
Sadly, the Roman Catholic Church still has over 100 Anathemas spoken at the Protestant movement- formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication. I do not believe most Catholics are bad at all but the Church needs to apologize for the Persecution of Protestants in her past. I know they have towards Islam. Many of my close friends are Catholic and a large part of my city is Catholic, mostly of Italian, and Irish ancestry.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:38
Yes simply making a cross reference. I am trying to make a point that it isn't necessarily the religion (whichever one) that is promoting these events.
 
 
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:58
Originally posted by es_bih

Yes simply making a cross reference. I am trying to make a point that it isn't necessarily the religion (whichever one) that is promoting these events.



I agree and there are some extremes in Prostestant Christianity such as Pat Robertson who believes that Christianity has to be established in the government before the second coming of Christ. Most Christians do not believe this as far as I know but his theology is scary and defies seperation of church and state. I agree with some of his views as a conservative, such as; family,marriage is only for a man and women, etc but his theology is wierd. The one thing I am not worried about is these people becoming terrorist. Groups like Jim Jones and that group in Waco, Texas were potential terrorist. (cannot recall their name)
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 03:02
Eagelcap and es_bih, please read my second last post in page 6. I would like to hear your opinion about this...

Edited by pekau - 10-Oct-2007 at 03:03
     
   
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 08:58
Originally posted by pekau

If religion exists without people? Interesting... I don't believe so. The whole point of religion is to provide a path and guide for people. I don't believe that God would send Jesus Christ to earthly world if there were no human beings...  I don't see where you are getting with this..Confused
 
So, what are you saying, religion is God made? Then why is it not just a religion, since there is only one God. Or are there more Gods?
Or maybe, religion is a human contraption to make the reality easyer to digest. Instead of thouroughly searching for an explanation of things religion simplifies all by stating that God is the basic ingredient of everything. And that you only need to believe, not to seek, not to question, not to deny. When it turns to bad things, one who contradicts the dogma is burned at the stake, off course.


Edited by Cezar - 12-Oct-2007 at 11:56
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 00:18
I am not really mentioning this as a "bad side" or something, but I find this absurd and would like to get informed on that.
 
In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.
 
What is the basepoint of this?
 
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we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 02:22
Originally posted by Kapikulu

In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.
 
What is the basepoint of this?
 
Thanks,
 
This absurdity happens when men prioritize tradition like Pharisees did over the teaching of God. As I already pointed out, Catholicism is perverted version of Christianity that should not be considered part of Christianity.
     
   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 02:42
?

There are many Catholics that would disagree, please state your reasons with credible factual backing.

The Church ideology is rather elaborate, their dogma as far as I have glanced over has a rather well developed Christian theology.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 03:49
Originally posted by es_bih

?

 
Please don't start this again...
 
Originally posted by es_bih

There are many Catholics that would disagree, please state your reasons with credible factual backing.

 
Of course they will deny my point. But as I have said before, those who ignore path of Christ are not Christians (I will live with the historical definition)
 
Jesus himself warned this...
 
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

 5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
   " 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 7They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

 9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 

Mark 7:1-9 
 
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 23:27-28
 
I will just throw in some examples. Until 1960s, all Catholic students had to eat fish on Friday because eating meat on Friday is considered sinful. Then along cam Vatican II and declared that it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. One week it's a sin, and the next it was not?
 
Calibacy of the priesthood. Why against it? Bible clearly said...
 
 
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
 
 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
Genesis 2: 18, 24
     
   
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 05:28
Pekau,
 
I would be careful about saying people aren't Christians--especially if I were denying certain basic scriptural doctrines. You are not living the "historical definition" of Christianity; indeed, such a claim from someone who denies the value of God inspired tradition is laughable at best. For did our Lord Jesus Christ not state:
 
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak and He will tell you things to come. [John 16: 13]
 
You fail to take into account the very real shift between the Old Covenant and the New. Though we may still err--after all, we are mere mortals--we, as an ecclesial body, have the promise of divine inspiration. You make no distinction between the sacred, God led Tradition of the Church and the traditions of men. For that matter, you are in desperate need of a familiarization with the whole of Scripture, and not just certain evangelical proof texts, as we shall see in a moment.
 
First let us address your attempt to assail the very idea of "tradition" itself. We really don't need to address your "proof" texts at this point, because they all rely on the same, rather careless--and, unfortunately, all too common--flaw: that of refusing to recognize the distinction between God inspired tradition and the "traditions of men." What we do need to do is to see how the misinterpretation of certain passages of Scripture, along with the casual dismissal of other parts, leads to a disastrous perversion of the Christian Faith--the same type of perversion that you accuse others of making. Perhaps the best way of illustrating the dangers of such a perspective is to address three specific issues which have come up in this thread: the sacrament of confession, fasting,  and the celibacy of priests.
 
The first issue which we shall address is confession--and we shall not take long. The sacrament of confession, which was the issue that was initially raised--and which led to your rather cavalier dismissal of Romanism--has a solid basis in both Scripture and Tradition. For did our lord not say to the Apostles that:
 
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. [Matthew 18: 17-18]
 
Christ goes on to describe the power Christians have when gathered together. This is absolutely essential, for we are a community. Sin affects the entire ecclesial community. As I recall, this is one of the very few (2?) times in Scripture where Christ actually talks about a "church." That should say something to you about what He is trying to emphasize here. Well, the priest is the sacramental guardian of the community, and acts as its representative, in accordance with the powers granted to the Apostles by Christ, and by the Apostles to the Church.
 
As for fasting, I think you need to clarify--both for my benefit, as well as your own--your issues with the practice. I am actually upset that the Roman Church has placed less emphasis on this essential part of Christian spirituality over the past several decades. I assure you that the practice of fasting is, indeed, Scriptural, for did our Lord not say:
 
But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days. [Mark 2: 20]
 
That said, it can become legalistic (Pharasaical), but I would say that the various denials of this very real pillar of the spiritual life by certain evangelicals is much more detrimental than the actions of those who seek--although, unfortunately, legalistically--to follow what is an essential part of true spirituality. It is the difference between following Christ's command wrongly, and refusing to follow it at all.
 
The celibacy of priests is one area where you and I would find ourselves in agreement, at least to some extent. Still, by taking a couple of passages of Scripture out of context, I believe you have missed the overall message. The common evangelical "proof" texts give the impression that everyone must be married, which both you and I would agree simply isn't the case. This is why it is better to take the whole of Scripture, as well as the historical guidance of the Church by the Holy Spirit, into account. Anyway, if you do still need an example that states that it is fine for a minister of God to be unmarried, you need turn no further than St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians, where he states:
 
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. [I Cor. 7: 1-2]
 
which is further contextualized by that which follows...
 
But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. [I Cor. 7: 8-9]
 
Even our Lord endorsed the honorable path chosen by men "who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake," continuing,   "He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."
 
If you wish, we could delve into exegesis--for surely you will admit that the path from the Book to the mind is subject (without the aid of the Spirit) to all of the pitfalls that affect human comprehension in other contexts. You will pardon me if I take the perspective of the God inspired fathers of the Church over more recent... innovations.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Oct-2007 at 05:35
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Posts: 156 		  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 06:10
Originally posted by pekau

Why bother starting this post? We already had tons of discussion like this before... Confused


Retaliation may be one of the reasons. may not be. or may be partially. 
God is not great.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 15:57
Originally posted by pekau

Please don't start this again...
 
Oh but I will when you do not cite any proper academic source to back up such a fallacious claim...
 
 
 
 
Of course they will deny my point. But as I have said before, those who ignore path of Christ are not Christians (I will live with the historical definition)
 
How do you defy a Christian then? Who says that they do not? I observe many Catholics that read the bible, and follow the example of Christ, and quoute Christ, and assume their Church as a Church given unto them from Christ. Theology as well supports that.
 
PS: I am not a Catholic, so I am looking at this from a neutral persective.
 
 
 
Jesus himself warned this...
 
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

 5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
   " 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 7They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

 9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 

Mark 7:1-9 
 
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 23:27-28
 
 
I will just say that by reading this I have not been convinced of your point, rather I see examples of what a Christian would be, and from what I have gathered Catholics fit into that category so far.
 
 
 
 
I will just throw in some examples. Until 1960s, all Catholic students had to eat fish on Friday because eating meat on Friday is considered sinful. Then along cam Vatican II and declared that it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. One week it's a sin, and the next it was not?
 
Is it not that the protestant churches broke away from a longstanding tradition of Catholic Christianity? I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but with the mindless pandering you are displaying here. It is wrong for one to "reform" their views and beliefs, but not for the other because if I am correct Jesus is credited with giving the "keys to this kingdom" to Peter the first bishop of Rome. So theologically Catholics can make a claim on their Christianity.
 
 
 
Calibacy of the priesthood. Why against it? Bible clearly said...
 
 
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
 
 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
Genesis 2: 18, 24
 
You just earlier claimed that following the way of Christ is the truth, who according to the Bible, and most versions of Christaintiy that I know off was CELIBATE. So for a member of the clergy would it not be theologically sound to follow that Christ in all ways one can including celibacy?
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 16:00
Originally posted by SuN.

Originally posted by pekau

Why bother starting this post? We already had tons of discussion like this before... Confused


Retaliation may be one of the reasons. may not be. or may be partially. 
This thread was started by a Christian AFAIK... retaliation is not the reason we already discussed the reason for the start of the thread...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 04:44
It quite clearly was a form of retaliation based upon a false premise. I don't see why this thread hasn't been locked.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 13:29
Originally posted by Zaitsev

It quite clearly was a form of retaliation based upon a false premise. I don't see why this thread hasn't been locked.


It was not on false premises as we clearly see that there are Christians who commit wrong as well Smile

Your argument is futile, wheter or not you can be called Christian at least theologically doesn't mean that there are people out there who do things in the name of Christ, etc.

Bombing abortion clinics isn't the Christian thing to do, and yes they have a flawed vision of things, but guess what they still are there.

Funny though when the word Islamic is inserted it somehow makes it either excusable by that religion, or not "retalitatory" to have a thread based upon false facts...
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hugoestr, what happened to your avatar? I can't remember that well, but I swear I saw that person in the kid's section in Chapters....LOL


Someone snapped their fingers...
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Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Kapikulu

In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.

What is the basepoint of this?


Thanks,


This absurdity happens when men prioritize tradition like Pharisees did over the teaching of God. As I already pointed out, Catholicism is perverted version of Christianity that should not be considered part of Christianity.


What is up with your anti-Catholicism? It is disturbing. Catholicism is Christian in its doctrine.

But let me hear more about this. What about other western denomination that are very close to the Catholic Church in its doctrines and rights. Are Lutherans Christians? How about Anglicans?
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