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    Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 15:20
Hi everybody! I am new to this forum so hi to all!Smile
 
I am looking for as much info as possible about the ancient Paones, we might know them from Homers Iliad book XXI for instance:
 
upon Asteropaios son of Pelegon, whom wide-flowing Axios begat of Periboia eldest of the daughters of Akessamenos. Upon him set Achilles, and Asteropaios stood against him from the river, holding two spears; for Xanthos put courage into his heart, being angered for the slaughtered youths whom Achilles was slaughtering along the stream and had no pity on them. Then when the twain were come nigh in onset on each other, unto him first spake fleet-footed noble Achilles: "Who and. whence art thou of men, that darest to come against me? Ill-fated are they whose children match them with my might."

And to him, made answer Pelegon's noble son: "High-hearted son of Peleus, why askest thou my lineage? I come from deep-soiled Paionia, a land far off, leading Paionian men with their long spears, and this now is the eleventh morn since I am come to Ilios. My lineage is of wide-flowing Axios, who begat Pelegon famous with the spear, and he, men say, was my father. Now fight we, noble Achilles!"

Now the above text mentions him as son of the mighty Pelagon from wide flowing Axius( todays Vardar river in Fyrom macedonia)
 
Could they be the forefathers of the Pelagones with their known tripolis from Herododtus account?
 
Here is some more text about the Paones..
 
The tribes of Paeonia inhabited the mountains in the interior of the country (Macedonia/Fyrom). They observed, learned and slowly grew accustomed to a new spirit, a new culture, and many luxurious goods. Some of these tribes, as for instance the Laeaei, Derrones and Siriopaiones, were soon to manifest their cultural integrity by producing silver coins at the close of the 6th and start of the 5th centuries B.C. This sudden flourishing of culture was to be conducive to an instant polarization within the communities, which marked the end of the Paeonian "clan idyll". Hence one among the equal members became hungry for power, since this would bring in its wake the obtaining of the clan's wealth and splendour. This also led to the birth of aristocracy. After some time this was to result in the genesis of a princedom, i.e. the first small state, which would expand proportionally to the power of the prince. Eventually this state would develop into a kingdom, with the attribution of regal honours to its head. Thus the dynasty was born.
The gloomy prehistoric night is swallowed in the depths of the three great rivers of Macedonia, and the Paeonian tribes with their princes take the stage in the full light of day. One of the early Paeonian sovereigns was Teutaos. One of his silver coins, a diobol from between 450 and 435 B.C., was discovered at the Paeonian palace on Markova Kula near Demir Kapija. We also know of two princes of the Paeonian Agrinians in the course of the 4th century; these were Langarus and Dyplaios (c. 330). Other renowned princes of the Paeonians were Nicharchos, Symon and Bastareios (also 4th century), while the historically documented Paeonian dynasty was to follow with the kings Agis (to 359), Lycaeios (359/8 - 340/35), Patraios (340/35 - 315), Audoleon (315 - 286/5), Ariston (286/5), Leon (after 278 - c. 250) and Dropion (c. 250 - 230).
 
And the following known kings and customs from the coins found so far.
 
Thus we read the names of the Paeonian kings from their silver drachmas and tetradrachmas, and later from bronze coins too. TEYTAÐ denotes that this small silver diobol was of Teutaos, while AYKKEIOY means of Lycaeios. The father of Lycaeios, Agis, was actually the first historically documented king of Paeonia. His coins, however, remain unknown; we only have those of his son. The coins of the latter show Apollo and sometimes even Zeus, or the monarch himself. Hercules strangling the Nemean lion can be seen on the reverse of the tetradrachmas, while the reverse of his drachmas usually shows the image of a lion or a grazing bull. The coins of his successor Patraios are far more varied as far as the repertoire of their imprints is concerned; a cantharus, a bucranium; grapes, a trident, a wreath, a lily, a wild boar's protom and an eagle are only some of them, and all have their specific symbolic significance.
 
Of particular interest, however, and pregnant with meaning, was the motif of an armed horseman ramming his lance into the body of a fallen adversary, found amongst Patraios's coins. The opponent protects himself with a shield raised in his left hand. Such tetradrachmas have been found at Gorno Cicevo and in the vicinity of Stip. The rider on this coin was actually Ariston, the brother of King Patraios, who accompanied Alexander III of Macedon throughout his Eastern Campaign. Before one of the battles, probably that at Gaugamela, a Persian officer named Satropates appeared before the warriors and, "as was the custom", challenged them to single combat. Ariston accepted this challenge, threw him off his destrier, pierced him with his spear and then hurled the head down before the feet of Alexander with the words: "In my country a deed like this is rewarded with a gold cup."
 
The Paones were and are well  known for their existence in numerous texts..
 
But to return to the question, who were these Paones?
 
A pelasgian race ? Doric? or Thracian , Thracian due to their proximity with the Thracians but same goes for the Macedonians and their predecessors.
 
The son of Pelegon now could he be a Pelasgian or even Phryghian/Bryghian?
 
Because the Pelasgians were more situated in the region of Epirus and todays southwestern Albania..
 
Also Herodotus describes the Paonian women famed for they're beauty
by Mardonius the Persian , who took some women of the Paones(the conquered areas of Paonia, which were from the  the Doberons tribe  mostly in the southeastern areas from) Paonia to Persia with him.
 
Herodotus also questions their offsprin in his book :
 
BOOK V

THE FIFTH BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED TERPSICHORE
 
"Who then are these Paionians, and where upon the earth do
they dwell?" and he asked them also what they desired, that they had
come to Sardis. They declared to him that they had come to give
themselves up to him, and that Paionia was a country situated upon the
river Strymon, and that the Strymon was not far from the Hellespont,
and finally that they were colonists from the Teucrians of Troy.
 
Can anyone add some valuable info on the exact origins of the Paones and their customs such as most tribes lived on small wooden villages build on poles above the water surface on the lakes of Doiran ancient Praspias/lake Lychnitis and Prespa lakes..
 
From Herodotus same source as above mentioned..
 
 and the Paionians, being informed that the Persians were
coming against them, gathered all their powers together and marched
out in the direction of the sea, supposing that the Persians when they
invaded them would make their attack on that side. The Paionians then
were prepared, as I say, to drive off the army of Megabazos when it
came against them; but the Persians hearing that the Paionians had
gathered their powers and were guarding the entrance which lay towards
the sea, directed their course with guides along the upper road; and
passing unperceived by the Paionians they fell upon their cities,
which were left without men, and finding them without defenders they
easily took possession of them. The Paionians when they heard that
their cities were in the hands of the enemy, at once dispersed, each
tribe to its own place of abode, and proceeded to deliver themselves
up to the Persians. Thus then it happened that these tribes of the
Paionians, namely the Siropaionians,[6] the Paioplians and all up to
the lake Prasias, were removed from their place of habitation and
brought to Asia; 16, but those who dwell about mount Pangaion, and
about the Doberians and Agrianians and Odomantians,[7] and about the
lake Prasias itself, were not conquered at all by Megabazos. He tried
however to remove even those who lived in the lake and who had their
dwellings in the following manner:--a platform fastened together and
resting upon lofty piles stood in the middle of the water of the lake,
with a narrow approach to it from the mainland by a single bridge. The
piles which supported the platform were no doubt originally set there
by all the members of the community working together, but since that
time they continue to set them by observance of this rule, that is to
say, every man who marries brings from the mountain called Orbelos
three piles for each wife and sets them as supports; and each man
takes to himself many wives. And they have their dwelling thus, that
is each man has possession of a hut upon the platform in which he
lives and of a trap-door[8] leading through the platform down to the
lake: and their infant children they tie with a rope by the foot, for
fear that they should roll into the water. To their horses and beasts
of burden they give fish for fodder; and of fish there is so great
quantity that if a man open the trap-door and let down an empty basket
by a cord into the lake, after waiting quite a short time he draws it
up again full of fish. Of the fish there are two kinds, and they call
them /paprax/ and /tilon/.

Who can add some valuable info on the mysterious Paones and their existence mostly form 1200 B.C. thru 3/4th c.B.C.
 
All the best Paul
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 08:11
Nice to have you here Cadmus.

Well, Paeonia is as you correctly mentioned the largest part of todays FYROM and a part of Bulgaria as well. The Paeones are mostly placed amongst Thracians. There are numerous accounts but I do not remember the exact sources. Gotta look it up.

I definetely do not think they were Dorians or Phrygians however.

Their language was not close to neither Phrygian nor Greek. It is clearly Thracian.



Text: Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean isko Arazea domean Tilezupta mie erazilta.




Edited by Flipper - 27-Sep-2007 at 08:19


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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 09:03
This illustration depicts an ancient Paionian calvaryman. It indicates fur or sheep skin as well.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 15:23
HugExecellent to have you here, Cadmus! You seem to be a knowledgeable addition to a thriving community here on allempires and our classics section. This is a very interesting dilemma that you've brought up here - not much about these eastern Greek tribes is known, and I think this would make a good article for the magazine/database.
 
However, although it would seem these guys are Ionian Greeks (The tunic, thrusting spear, topis and Chalcidian helmet in the picture Penelope posted justify this belief), the location that you mentioned (Sardis and the Hellespont) is more typical for Thracian and Pseudo-Greek tribes. Although there were some minor Greek cities (Aizanoi, Lampasus etc) around this aforementioned area, it was historically under the control of what I call the "Luwian Greeks". These are semi-Hellenic peoples such as the Lycians, Lydians and Phygrians who had relations to the Luwian language, are mentioned as vassals in Hittite documents and still kept a unique blended culture until the Persian invasion. I wouldn't be surpised if these people also had some of that heritage, and when regarding their Geographical location between the Ionian settlements and those of the "Luwian Greeks", it's not unlikely that they could have got some influences from both.
 
This is really interesting, and I thank you for contributing us - a gem of a first post Smile 


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 27-Sep-2007 at 15:24
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 16:54
Aster you brought up some interresting information as well...The "Luwian Greeks" is an issue that has not been discussed a lot. It is known that the Carians are originally of Luwian descend but they suddenly "become" Greeks . However, according to the newest theories of the IE migrations the Luwians were the first IE that entered Greece. Also known as the Anatolian theory of invading "Greeks" that is more popular nowadays. Just an easy example based on linguistics is the first Kindom of Deucalion, that was based on mountain Parnassos which litterarly means "house/the place" in Luwian (Parna = House).

Back to the subject though...Even though the Paionians were said to be inhabitants of Troy, their language has not such a connection to the Luwian or Hittite language. So,like before, i place would place my bet they're Thracians. 


Edited by Flipper - 27-Sep-2007 at 17:07


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 18:27
Hi Flipper!
 
And thanks for your warm welcome Aster Thrax Eupator!
 
Flipper first of all Homer in the Iliad clearly mentiones the Thracians and Paionians as different groupes of peoples assisting the Troyans.
 
Also i have heard of a theory mentioning the Bryghes moving of to Asia Minor before the Troyan campaign around 1200 b.c. it states that  the Phrygians before entering in Asia Minor were called Brhyges/Bryghians and came from the areas of Thrace or the western part of Thrace..
 
I think the Thracians and Bryghes were once from the same proto IE peoples that got separated from eachother before the Troyan campaign, thus the Bryghes evolving into Phryghians and the Phryghians splitting into two groupes the Paionians and Phryghians, the latter remaining in Asia Minor (Lydia/Sardis) and the Phryghians moving back to western europe formed the Paionians, this all prior to the Troy campaign ..
 
Now i am confused about the Bryghes since there was a city called Bryghias in todays Fyrom that was the capitol of the Bryghes, those Bryghes lived next to the Paionians/ Macedonians and Thracians in the western areas of the Balkans...after the Troy campaign.
 
Who can enlighten me on the Phryghian/Bryghian connection and the migrations of both peoples//
 
I think the Pelasgians and Bryghes were of the same branch of IE peoples that lived next to eachother,before the Paionians were even mentioned or existed ,thus i would place the Paionians as a peoples that were formed from the migrating Phryghians back from Asia Minor and the left over Bryghes in the western Balkans with perhaps the Pelasgians hence the mentioning in my previous post about Asteropaios the son of Pelegon , him being of Pelasgian/Bryghian stock..
 
I hope someone can improve my theory or correct it about the relationship between the cultures discussed here..
 
All the best,
 
Paul
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 20:03
Cadmus, the name Βρύγες (Bryghes) is a Doric distortion of Φρύγες (Phryghes).

In Doric, in some cases the Ph-sound become B (v practically, but B latinized). For example:

To call someone named Philippos in Doric would be "Philippe!". When you make a reference to a person with a name Philippos e.g "to Philippos" it would become "sdo Bilippo" instead of "sto Philippo". Another example of our time is the Tsakonian (Laconian) word Basoli instead of the Phasoli (bean in Greek). This is a a typical example of Doric distortion compared to the Attic breathing.

That is why it is evident to me that the Brygians were Phrygians who were reported with the name Brygians to Herodotus.

Now, what connection do they Brygians and the Paionians have? I'm not really sure cause i have not seen examples of words common in Phrygian and Paionian.

It is not impossible that Paionians had a percentage of remaining Brygians. However, i think they had other mixes comming from the north.

On the other side i believe that Phrygians had a major impact on the Thracian language. While Thracian is not Phrygian, the Phrygian language played a major role in the evolution of that language.


Edited by Flipper - 28-Sep-2007 at 20:37


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 20:27
Found some examples:

Paionian: Monapos
Thracian: Bolinthos
Greek: Vous
English: Bull

Paionian: Tilon = a fish spece
Greek: Tilos = wet excrement

Paionian:
Pontos = wet
Greek: Pontos = sea passage

Also the Paionian tribe Agrianes is similar to Greek Agros (field), which makes agrianes "people of the fields". This name is recorded though by Greeks. Maybe the Agrianes had another name for themselves.

Those are just few words i could find. Not many are available :(

I couldn't find examples on Phrygian compared to Paionian. I need some time to search.

However, no matter what similarities you may see in words compared to Greek, I personally do not understand the few inscriptions available online. In Phrygian i can recognise words.



Edited by Flipper - 28-Sep-2007 at 20:39


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 21:44
Flipper just consider one think that according Professors Finkelberg and Evaggelidis, Phrygian and Greek perhaps are sisters (related or quite close) languages. Both also claim that there is a common retention can only be accounted if we assume that the Greeks and Phrygians jointly separated from the proto-IE unity.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 23:08
The Paeonians inhabited the region around the Strymon river in the east ,and the region around Astibus/ the Almopes in the northwest of Fyrom... and the Axius river and Bistrica.
 
This text is also from Homer Illiad:
 
Pyraechmes did the Paeons rule, that crooked bows do bend; From Axius, out of Amydon he had them in command, Axius, whose most beauteous stream still overflows the land.
 
The Agrinians had Langarus as their king and  Dyplaios , further you had the Laeaei, Derrones and Siriopaiones, Doberons and Agrinians as the main Paeonian tribes..
 
Here are some deities of the Paeonians similair to the Greek ones.
 
We have very little data on the religious life of the ancient Paeonians; apart from the fact that they worshipped the sun throughout the Archaic Period and that, during the Classical era, they prayed to certain deities that resembled their Hellenic counterparts in terms of function. Thus for instance Pean is the god, the genius, of medicine; Kandalos the god of war; Dyalos was similar to Dionysus and Bendida to Artemis. We also know that Apollo was known as Etheudanos and Etheudaniskos
 
Certainly this sounds more like Thracian or even Phrygian..any data on similarities on Thracian/Phrygian deities?


Edited by Cadmus - 28-Sep-2007 at 23:18
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 13:51
Originally posted by akritas

Flipper just consider one think that according Professors Finkelberg and Evaggelidis, Phrygian and Greek perhaps are sisters (related or quite close) languages. Both also claim that there is a common retention can only be accounted if we assume that the Greeks and Phrygians jointly separated from the proto-IE unity.


Yeah, i'm aware of that. Basically it is not just them but many linguists believe that. Well, if you look at it there are many similar words that only change slightly e.g Veltes instead of Valtos, Vratir instead of Phratir, Matir and Metir etc etc.

I'm having a deeper study on Phrygians lately.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 13:52
Originally posted by Cadmus

Certainly this sounds more like Thracian or even Phrygian..any data on similarities on Thracian/Phrygian deities?


I've encountered some before. One I remember is Cybele (Mother Earth).


Edited by Flipper - 29-Sep-2007 at 13:52


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 18:10
Originally posted by Flipper


To call someone named Philippos in Doric would be "Philippe!".
 
Is it different in other Greek dialects, Phlipper? In particular Greek spoken in Byzantium?
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 18:54
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Flipper


To call someone named Philippos in Doric would be "Philippe!".
 
Is it different in other Greek dialects, Phlipper? In particular Greek spoken in Byzantium?


When you call someone no...But when you refer yes it is different. In Aeolic and Attic the Ph- remains, while Doric changes to V- (B latinized). In the Byzantine Greek, you would probably find this phenomenon only in areas like Lakonia, Bythinia and Mygdonia. I haven't encountered it on text from Byzantine times but i have found later documents from that areas where it happens.

But the above phrase was actually a general rule in Greek and not just in Doric. So, it was my bad. The difference is on the reference calling.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 21:08
By the way, some authors suggest adifferent reading of the Thracian phrase you posted -- Rolistene as Nerenea (meaning "Rolisten, me, Nerenea"). The name Rolisten is in calling form (this form is present, as far as I understand, in all present Balkan languages).
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 20:58
I don't know Anton. The image i posted (which dissappeared for some reason) had the name as Rolisteneas. The -eas, -as etc endings seems to be common amongst many people in the balcans. However, my point was that I'm sure that the Bryges were Phrygians, because their name had been passed to Herodotus as Bryges (instead of Phryges). 

Edited by Flipper - 01-Oct-2007 at 20:59


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 21:25

There is actually no separation into words in this ring:

 
 
Anyway,  it is irrelevant to the topic.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 09:25
Back to the subject though...Even though the Paionians were said to be inhabitants of Troy, their language has not such a connection to the Luwian or Hittite language. So,like before, i place would place my bet they're Thracians. 
 
I'd go with that - Migrations across the Dardinelles in the archaic period weren't exactly rare. In any case, the crumbling Hittite empire probably wasn't in a state to protect against people such as these.
 
These "Luwian Greeks", Filpper, are in fact the last decendents of the Hittites and Hatti. The government centres of rule after the collapse of the empire were isolated and had to fend for themselves, so it's not suprising that they became semi-autonomous. My view is that the stalemate between the Assyrians and Urartians in the east closed off the trade and thus "flow of culture" allowing the Greeks to have more influence on these peoples
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  Quote Ypnos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 01:27
I'm surprised Dardania has yet to be mentioned here Question
Θαρσήν Χρεί
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 10:55
Dardania was an ally of the Illyrians, before that the Dardanians started out as Hellenes but they became Illyrinised after that.

Edited by Cadmus - 05-Oct-2007 at 10:55
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