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The Perfect Religion

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Perfect Religion
    Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 09:42
All religions are nonsense.  God created life and let it evolve, anyone who's not agnostic, is atheist or believes in the mainstream Abrahamic and revealed religions is thus very gullible, to put it mildly, because they follow the institutional control mechanisms of others.   Sure you can be a hippy and add your own spirituality and the rest to it, but that's NOT how these religions started out. 
 
God didn't give us anything, it didn't even create us per se.  How could it have created us?  There is a clear evolutionary path to the coming of man and our genetic footprint (along with those of other mammals) can be followed all the way back to the first mammals - explain that one, were we created from the rib of another animal in the same way that Eve was created from Adam's rib?
 
I created you from clay/dust, I put this on you then that on you and blew the essence into you...
 
Yea? Yea right, whatever.


Edited by Zagros - 30-Sep-2007 at 09:43
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 10:22
Is this the evolutionary chain that just got pretty much proven false? LOL

Originally posted by Research Asia


Two fossils discovered in Kenya cast doubt on theories of the early evolution of the genus Homo. They show that the species H. habilis and H. erectus previously thought to have evolved one after the other actually lived side-by-side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years. The H. erectus fossil is the smallest ever found, suggesting that this species was not as human-like as once thought. Fred Spoor and colleagues describe the fossils and discuss their wider evolutionary implications in this weeks Nature.

The east-African hominins H. habilis and the generally larger and later H. erectus are often regarded as part of the same pre-human lineage. The new fossils, uncovered east of Lake Turkana in Kenya, now challenge the relationship between these two species. The researchers attribute the first specimen, fragments of an upper jaw bone, to H. habilis. These bones provide the last known occurrence date for this species 1.44 million years ago which is significantly younger than previous estimates. The second fossil, a beautifully preserved H. erectus skull from 1.55 million years ago, is remarkable because it is close to the average size of H. habilis. This indicates that the species displayed substantial sexual dimorphism with the male being much larger than the female, like modern day gorillas.

The new dates show that H. habilis and H. erectus did in fact live at the same time in the Turkana basin for nearly half a million years. Their co-existence makes it unlikely that H. erectus evolved from H. habilis both species must have originated between 2 and 3 million years ago, a time from which few Homo fossils are known. The authors conclude that, because they stayed as separate individual species for such a long time, they probably each had their own ecological niche and avoided direct competition with each other.


Thumbs%20Down LOL

Besides, there is no evolutionary chain. There's an evolutionary picket fence. LOL 
LOL
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 12:38
Is this the evolutionary chain that just got pretty much proven false?
 
No.
 
Interesting signature you have there.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 12:50
Thankyou. Snide remarks don't hide the fact that you ignored the evidence. LOL
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 13:01

It wasn't so much a snide remark as an allusion to the fact that your paste bore nothing contrary to what I said and, as such, was in itself a straw man argument: one which you put up and knocked down most competently yourself.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 13:08
Originally posted by Zagros

There is a clear evolutionary path to the coming of man


Perhaps, perhaps, but when my argument fell down I think it pretty much flattened this. OuchLOL
LOL
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 14:09

Originally posted by Zagros

There is a clear evolutionary path to the coming of man and our genetic footprint (along with those of other mammals) can be followed all the way back to the first mammals

Since you need it spelled out: I didn't make any assertations specifically linking one primate species to another, I merely stated that our evolutionary path (along with that of all other modern mammals) can be traced right back to the earliest of mammals, 200 million years ago.  You asked me whether I was alluding to some disproven link and then refuted your own question, merrily using a host of inane smilies along the way.  Hence, straw man.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Zagros

There is a clear evolutionary path to the coming of man and our genetic footprint (along with those of other mammals) can be followed all the way back to the first mammals

Since you need it spelled out: I didn't make any assertations specifically linking one primate species to another, I merely stated that our evolutionary path (along with that of all other modern mammals) can be traced right back to the earliest of mammals, 200 million years ago.  You asked me whether I was alluding to some disproven link and then refuted your own question, merrily using a host of inane smilies along the way.  Hence, straw man.


Highlighted in red and bold we have your first leap of logic that landed you in the quagmire that is your current position. You see, for you to be able to claim that there is a clear path, said path must be recognised and plotted. Now, for the sake of convenience, I'm going to assume you take the generally accepted 'path'. If not, could you please detail your theory of human evolution for us for critique before tea. If so, then said "clear path" now drops off the edge of the map.

As you can see, to allude to the previously accepted 'clear path' is to allude to a disproven link. However, this is besides the point, I asked whether you were alluding to the broken path, which you most certainly were.

As for refuting my own question, that I did. I offered you a perfectly reasonable paradox to exploit. Firstly you have a question which uses one terminology, the terminology you used. Then you have a statement which says your terminology is cpmpletely wrong. So you'd be quite right to disagree with my question, if you're willing to revoke the way you phrased 'evolutionary path'. Alternatively, you could argue the picket fence analogy, only to find that you would of course be unable to win that argument. As you failed to address either my statement or my question, both points remain as tokens of your underpreparedness, and perhaps the weakness of your position. Clap The smilies just make it that much more painful.LOL
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 15:03
I am not going to get stuck in semantics over a very general statement I made which obviously offended the fragile myths some take for fact around here.  The quagmire is one of your own making and one in which you're trying to drag me with your pettiness and straw man argument. 
 
Smilies make things "that much more painful"? Are you some sort of masochist? Why am I not surprised.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 15:40
It's always a shame to see a once noble moderator resort to vaguely veiled personal attacks. You only find yourself arguing semantics because you lack the ability to argue the point. Your statement, although poorly worded, was actually very specific. You referenced quite clearly to the 'chain of human evolution'. I'm sorry if I "offended the fragile myths you take for fact". 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 01:51
Originally posted by Zagros

All religions are nonsense.  God created life and let it evolve, anyone who's not agnostic, is atheist or believes in the mainstream Abrahamic and revealed religions is thus very gullible, to put it mildly, because they follow the institutional control mechanisms of others.   Sure you can be a hippy and add your own spirituality and the rest to it, but that's NOT how these religions started out. 
 
I'm sorry you think I am so "very gullible," and even sorrier that your only stated reason for doing so involves my sheeplike willingness to "follow the institutional control mechanisms" of others. Frankly, I think we can all benefit from thoroughly studying the history and theology underlying institutional religion. For my part, I would respectfully ask you to research Christian ecclesiology.
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev

It's always a shame to see a once noble moderator resort to vaguely veiled personal attacks.
 
While I agree that Zagros' comments were poorly worded and a bit insulting, I would advise you to remove the sentence I have quoted above. Not only is it tacky, it comes very close to violating VII-B-8 of the COC (tone of contempt). While I think Zagros' comments were utterly misguided, he has always acted in a wonderfully impartial--and consequently quite noble--fashion in his capacity as a moderator.
 
Frankly, I don't see all that much good coming out of continuing this particular line of dialogue in what was previously a perfectly fruitful thread.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 01-Oct-2007 at 02:06
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:11
If he was an impartial mod, now would be the time to give himself a warning. LOL
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:17
Originally posted by Zaitsev

If he was an impartial mod, now would be the time to give himself a warning. LOL
 
Dangerously close to trolling, Zaitsev (VII-B-3). Please review the COC.
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:26
You're right Akolouthos. I have reported all the offending posts properly. Someone else can give the warning. I think I reported four posts, each breaching 3 or more sections of the code of conduct. Now that this unfortunate chapter has been dealt with, the legitimate debate can continue.


Edited by Zaitsev - 01-Oct-2007 at 04:28
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:45
Originally posted by Zaitsev

You're right Akolouthos. I have reported all the offending posts properly. Someone else can give the warning. I think I reported four posts, each breaching 3 or more sections of the code of conduct. Now that this unfortunate chapter has been dealt with, the legitimate debate can continue.
 
Zaitsev,
 
I haven't given you a warning, formal or informal--just a reminder; although I guess if you reported yourself, someone else might. I just worry when we all start trading barbs back and forth; after all, the same portions of the brain that are responsible for intelligent posting are responsible for barb-trading as well, and we all seem to have trouble using them for both tasks at the same time; I know I have. Wink
 
Anyway, lets take this thread away from evolution (which has been thoroughly discussed in other threads) and back to the initial topic--or perhaps, since the initial topic was a bit...er...broad, we can take it back to the last semi-on-topic thing any of us said. Does anyone recall? LOL
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 01-Oct-2007 at 04:47
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 05:13
I think you misunderstood Akolouthos. I reported Zagros. LOL
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 05:36
This topic has been temporarily closed... 
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 01-Oct-2007 at 05:38
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 22:25

This thread has been reopened on a trial basis. Let us return to the original topic.

-Akolouthos

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2007 at 01:30
I think the idea of a perfect religion is quite nonsense actually. Religion is the human side of the God equation. Humans are, basically, not perfect. No matter how perfect God's message may be, there will always be room for error with people. In the human language there is always some level of ambiguity. This is even assuming the purest of motives with all involved.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2007 at 15:15
This thread has been temporarily closed...again.
 
-Akolouthos
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